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Name Queston

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  • David
    I am considering using a variation or dimutive of Andrei. I have looked in Paul Wickenden name list and have found some that I like but the dates referenced
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 30, 2007
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      I am considering using a variation or dimutive of "Andrei." I have
      looked in Paul Wickenden name list and have found some that I like but
      the dates referenced are later than my desired period.

      Alternatively I am also considering a form of Vladimir (and then be the
      son of Andrei). There are 10th century variations of Vladimir in the
      list.

      How important is it to find a name and date reference that match the
      desired time period?

      David
    • goldschp@tds.net
      Both Andrei and Vladimir are very old names. Just because we cannot find a dated reference for Andrei that is really old does not remove the fact that it is a
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 30, 2007
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        Both Andrei and Vladimir are very old names. Just because we cannot find a dated reference for Andrei that is really old does not remove the fact that it is a Greek name and thus quite old. There is no temporal incompatibility issue with those names.

        The College of Arms can be quite picky, but on this they probably won't give you any trouble.

        In service,
        Paul Wickenden


        ---- David <stonefiddle@...> wrote:
        > I am considering using a variation or dimutive of "Andrei." I have
        > looked in Paul Wickenden name list and have found some that I like but
        > the dates referenced are later than my desired period.
        >
        > Alternatively I am also considering a form of Vladimir (and then be the
        > son of Andrei). There are 10th century variations of Vladimir in the
        > list.
        >
        > How important is it to find a name and date reference that match the
        > desired time period?
        >
        > David
        >
      • David H.
        Is it permitted to register a variant or diminutve of a name? To: sig@yahoogroups.comCC: stonefiddle@hotmail.comFrom: goldschp@tds.netDate: Tue, 30 Oct 2007
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 31, 2007
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          Is it permitted to register a variant or diminutve of a name?




          To: sig@yahoogroups.comCC: stonefiddle@...: goldschp@...: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:24:32 -0500Subject: Re: [sig] Name Queston




          Both Andrei and Vladimir are very old names. Just because we cannot find a dated reference for Andrei that is really old does not remove the fact that it is a Greek name and thus quite old. There is no temporal incompatibility issue with those names.The College of Arms can be quite picky, but on this they probably won't give you any trouble.In service,Paul Wickenden---- David <stonefiddle@...> wrote: > I am considering using a variation or dimutive of "Andrei." I have > looked in Paul Wickenden name list and have found some that I like but > the dates referenced are later than my desired period. > > Alternatively I am also considering a form of Vladimir (and then be the > son of Andrei). There are 10th century variations of Vladimir in the > list.> > How important is it to find a name and date reference that match the > desired time period?> > David>






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        • David H.
          Dear SIG, Another thing I would ask for advice on is how to come up with a design for a Device and/or Badge. ( I don t fully understand what the difference is
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 31, 2007
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            Dear SIG,

            Another thing I would ask for advice on is how to come up with a design for a Device and/or Badge. ( I don't fully understand what the difference is betwixt the two. ) Are there any websites that can help with creating a uniquely russian design?


            David






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          • Amy Tubbs
            There are articles in the Slovo that are helpful. I would recommend starting at this page under Heraldry:
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 31, 2007
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              There are articles in the Slovo that are helpful. I would recommend
              starting at this page under Heraldry:
              http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/slovo/subject_index.html#Heraldry

              On 10/31/07, David H. <stonefiddle@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Dear SIG,
              >
              > Another thing I would ask for advice on is how to come up with a design
              > for a Device and/or Badge. ( I don't fully understand what the difference is
              > betwixt the two. ) Are there any websites that can help with creating a
              > uniquely russian design?
              >
              >
              > David
              >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!
              >
              > http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • charles stefanich
              A device signifies the person i.e. this is me, a badge signifies a persons property i.e. this belongs to...... altho a badge is often used as a device for a
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 31, 2007
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                A device signifies the person i.e. this is me, a badge signifies a persons property i.e. this belongs to...... altho a badge is often used as a device for a secondary persona. You can register both a device and a badge.
                Valkai Istvan

                Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...> wrote:
                There are articles in the Slovo that are helpful. I would recommend
                starting at this page under Heraldry:
                http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/slovo/subject_index.html#Heraldry

                On 10/31/07, David H. <stonefiddle@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear SIG,
                >
                > Another thing I would ask for advice on is how to come up with a design
                > for a Device and/or Badge. ( I don't fully understand what the difference is
                > betwixt the two. ) Are there any websites that can help with creating a
                > uniquely russian design?
                >
                >
                > David
                >
                > __________________________________________________________
                > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!
                >
                > http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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              • T Duran
                ... Yep, as long as it s documentable. http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html 1. Documented Names. - Documented names, including given names, bynames,
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 31, 2007
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                  On 11/1/07, David H. <stonefiddle@...> wrote:
                  > Is it permitted to register a variant or diminutve of a name?

                  Yep, as long as it's documentable.

                  http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html

                  1. Documented Names. - Documented names, including given names,
                  bynames, place names, and valid variants and diminutives formed in a
                  period manner, may be used in the same manner in which they were used
                  in period sources.

                  --Kazimira
                • Iustin Branov
                  As the article points out, much of what was used in a similar manner to heraldry were personal runes . The banners that Paul identifies in his article as
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 31, 2007
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                    As the article points out, much of what was used in a
                    similar manner to heraldry were personal 'runes'. The
                    banners that Paul identifies in his article as having
                    such runes have not runes, but crosses. While
                    heraldry as practiced in the SCA seems to have been
                    foreign to Russia until late period, I would say
                    something with a cross in the design would work. What
                    is shown on the banner is actually a combination of a
                    cross, reed, and spear. It is a commonly seen design
                    in Russian Orthodoxy. At other times, it may include
                    other decoration, such as the skull under the cross,
                    held as the skull of Adam.

                    Iustin

                    --- Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...> wrote:

                    > There are articles in the Slovo that are helpful. I
                    > would recommend
                    > starting at this page under Heraldry:
                    >
                    http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/slovo/subject_index.html#Heraldry
                    >
                    > On 10/31/07, David H. <stonefiddle@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dear SIG,
                    > >
                    > > Another thing I would ask for advice on is how to
                    > come up with a design
                    > > for a Device and/or Badge. ( I don't fully
                    > understand what the difference is
                    > > betwixt the two. ) Are there any websites that can
                    > help with creating a
                    > > uniquely russian design?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > David
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    __________________________________________________________
                    > > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more!
                    > Try Windows Live OneCare!
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >


                    K Tvoim Uslugam,
                    Iustin

                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Pomestnik Iustin Branov, among the Greeks Kyrios Iustinos o Roussos
                    mka Justin Griffing
                    Apprentice to Mistress Mirabel Belchere
                    Pursuivant-at-Large
                    Shire of Mt. Freehold, East Kingdom
                    AIM: JMGriffingIM
                    Yahoo!: IGriffing
                    ICQ: 405166689

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                  • L.M. Kies
                    Greetings from Sofya! Similar runic markings are shown on the bottoms of ceramic pots in Kolchin s Drevnyaya Rus: Byt i Kul tura . There is a greater
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 31, 2007
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                      Greetings from Sofya!

                      Similar "runic' markings are shown on the bottoms of ceramic pots in Kolchin's "Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura". There is a greater variety of motifs than in the princely "runes" shown in Paul's article, but they still aren't very registerable. Contact me off list if you want to see them. (The list doesn't allow attachments.)

                      In the end, I'm afraid you're stuck doing "Western style" heraldry with motifs that are meaningful for your Russian persona. This isn't unreasonable, since in many ways, we Slavs are foreign visitors in the Western European SCA. Anyway, as an example, my device has an owl on it. The Russian word for owl is "sova" which is similar to my persona's name. And while owls are not symbolic of wisdom in Russian folklore the way they are in Western Europe, St. Sophia is a representation of wisdom.

                      >
                      >As the article points out, much of what was used in a
                      >similar manner to heraldry were personal 'runes'.
                      >
                      > > Are there any websites that can
                      > > help with creating a
                      > > uniquely russian design?
                      > >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • bphall76@aol.com
                      Another charge that I ve seen on a lot of (late and post period) Russian heraldry is the arm of God It s an arm from just above the elbow to the fingers
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 31, 2007
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                        Another charge that I've seen on a lot of (late and post period) Russian
                        heraldry is "the arm of God" It's an arm from just above the elbow to the
                        fingers issuant from a cloud. Sometimes the hand is holding something, sometimes
                        not. I've also seen a lot of archery stuff; bows and arrows.

                        For more, the book I got these from is "Russian Heraldry and Nobility" by
                        Donald Mandich and Joseph Placek isbn 0-9633063-9-1

                        Hope this helps
                        Vasilisa Myshkina



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                      • jjbober4@patmedia.net
                        Okay, you ve touched on what is probably my greatest SCA pet-peeve... Somewhere I at home amongst my ancient documents, such as Copora from the mid-80 s and a
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 1, 2007
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                          Okay, you've touched on what is probably my greatest SCA pet-peeve...

                          Somewhere I at home amongst my ancient documents, such as Copora from the
                          mid-80's and a first edition Known World Handbook, I have the Articles of
                          Incorporation for the SCA which says that it is "dedicated to the research and
                          recreation of pre-seventeenth century western culture". Not western
                          European...just western. Even in the on-line version of Copora, in the
                          introduction, it clearly says "European". If I remember correctly, Europe ends
                          at the Urals. Thus we are not "foreign visitors".

                          Yes, SCA heraldry is based upon English heraldry of the high middle ages, thus we
                          lose out and such things as Polish cypher heraldry - but if you're creative you
                          can make it pass nonetheless. :)

                          Jan - East
                          (soapboxing too early in the morning)

                          On Wed Oct 31 17:23 , 'L.M. Kies' sent:

                          Greetings from Sofya!

                          Similar "runic' markings are shown on the bottoms of ceramic pots in
                          Kolchin's "Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura". There is a greater variety of motifs
                          than in the princely "runes" shown in Paul's article, but they still aren't very
                          registerable. Contact me off list if you want to see them. (The list doesn't
                          allow attachments.)

                          In the end, I'm afraid you're stuck doing "Western style" heraldry with
                          motifs that are meaningful for your Russian persona. This isn't unreasonable,
                          since in many ways, we Slavs are foreign visitors in the Western European SCA.
                          Anyway, as an example, my device has an owl on it. The Russian word for owl is
                          "sova" which is similar to my persona's name. And while owls are not symbolic of
                          wisdom in Russian folklore the way they are in Western Europe, St. Sophia is a
                          representation of wisdom.
                        • L.M. Kies
                          Greetings from Sofya, Even though Western European culture is not officially in the governing documents of the SCA (although it has been debated ad nauseum
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 1, 2007
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                            Greetings from Sofya,

                            Even though "Western European" culture is not officially in the governing documents of the SCA (although it has been debated ad nauseum on other lists, mostly based on outdated versions of Corpora), the SCA as it is actually played, is overwhelmingly based on the Western European Middle Ages. Tournaments, heraldry, feudal ranks, chivalry, courtly love, the Renaissance, etc. which are central to the culture of the SCA are not central to Medieval Russian culture. (I can't speak to other Eastern European cultures.) We can't even submit our names for registration in their period spelling, because most of us Slavs use the Cyrillic alphabet.

                            The definition of where "Europe" ends is a whole debate in itself. For most of SCA period, Russia did not extend to the Urals, so I have trouble defining "medieval Europe" that far to the East. And based on most of the period writings by foreign visitors to the Russian lands I've read, they hardly seem to think of Russia as "European" either. But, of course, Corpora relies on the modern definition of "Europe" which is usually defined as ending at the Urals, except for a few radical scholars.

                            And no matter where "Europe" is, or even what Corpora says (or used to say), the SCA has always been a big tent with poor enforcement of what few rules of inclusion/exclusion there were/are.

                            So we're in. Just not necessarily our version of heraldry. Or our alphabet. ;-)

                            One suggestion for those who would like to register those funky "tamga" things that have no proper heraldic description - try submitting a roughly similar form that is registerable, then using artistic license to draw it your way once it passes.

                            Sofya

                            >------- Original Message -------
                            >
                            >Okay, you've touched on what is probably my greatest SCA pet-peeve...

                            Somewhere I at home amongst my ancient documents, such as Copora from the
                            mid-80's and a first edition Known World Handbook, I have the Articles of
                            Incorporation for the SCA which says that it is "dedicated to the research and
                            recreation of pre-seventeenth century western culture".




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David
                            Dear SIG, Thank you for all your help. I looked and the Slovo newsletter and I was really impressed with the abundance of great articles. It did my heart
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 2, 2007
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                              Dear SIG,

                              Thank you for all your help. I looked and the Slovo newsletter and I
                              was really impressed with the abundance of great articles. It did my
                              heart good to see how much y'all have researched medieval Russia. I
                              think I looked and read most of every issue. I am really glad that SIG
                              is here and I found it. Y''all are great.

                              Again, spaseebo,

                              David


                              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Amy Tubbs" <ivanova.doch@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > There are articles in the Slovo that are helpful. I would recommend
                              > starting at this page under Heraldry:
                              > http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/slovo/subject_index.html#Heraldry
                              >
                              > On 10/31/07, David H. stonefiddle@... wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Dear SIG,
                              > >
                              > > Another thing I would ask for advice on is how to come up with a
                              design
                              > > for a Device and/or Badge. ( I don't fully understand what the
                              difference is
                              > > betwixt the two. ) Are there any websites that can help with
                              creating a
                              > > uniquely russian design?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > David
                              > >
                              > > __________________________________________________________
                              > > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live
                              OneCare!
                              > >
                              > >
                              http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotm\
                              ailnews
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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