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Re: New to Group and Trying to Research 10th c. Kievan Rus

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  • noli_desiste
    I am in the SCA because I love history and it is *FUN*. I have been known to suffer from in one ear and out the other with some people at times in order to
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
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      I am in the SCA because I love history and it is *FUN*. I have been
      known to suffer from in one ear and out the other with some people at
      times in order to continue to have my love of the SCA, but I have never
      allowed others opinions to shape what interests me.

      When it boils down to history of the region... well, none of us were
      there, we can only come up with the best line of "this is how it was"
      based off of historical finds and discussion.

      I am very curious about the Kievan Rus - I even found one college that
      listed early Rus jewelry finds (by photo) and they were distinctly
      viking. So it is all hard to say... perception is a crazy thing.
      Personally, I feel every society had their own distinct
      culture/subcultures (which we see in society today) so I will figure
      something out and have *FUN* doing it. Afterall, that is the point of
      it all in the end ; )

      YIS,

      Emmie
    • apacuska@comcast.net
      David asked about history on the internet: I started letting my imagination work with my limited knowledge of russian history and came up with a Varangian
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
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        David asked about history on the internet:
        I started letting my imagination
        work with my limited knowledge of russian history and came up with a
        Varangian Guard connection. After the strong comments I received to my
        first inquiry about a Slavic/Norse persona I gave up working on it for a
        few months and wonder if I should drop the idea altogether. Maybe I'l
        move to Kiev.


        Hi David,

        Two comments. First, it depends on the source of the history - as with anything, the internet is filled with as much accurate information as inaccurate information and where you get it has as much to do with accuracy on the internet as it does when you get it from books. I recall lengthy discussions with professors, for example, of why Wikipedia is not to bereferenced as a source for term papers and theses. On the other hand, there are some pretty good resources out there.

        Second, without knowing what the objections were to your persona among the Norse goup, I don't know why there would be an objection to a Slavic/Norse persona in Novgorod. It was a *major* trade location between the Scandinavian and Kievan populaces and a large number of Norse lived there (supported by archeological, historical and anthropological sources) *and* intermarried with Novgorodians. That the Varangian guard was Norse is widely accepted among scholars and historians. Even if your only historical reference is Vernadsky (who's somewhat out of date, but only partially) you'd still have solid history on which to base your persona.

        So, if I were you and I wanted such a persona, I'd simply start doing more research and read more Kievan history from reputable sources in order to support your position. Additionally, knowing how lore-bound the Norse types can be, I know for a fact that there are references in the Sagas to Novogorod and the Varangians, including the marriage of various Kievan princesses to Norse kings (I don't have them with me at work so I can't give you the exact quotes and references).

        Aleksa
      • Sfandra
        ... Ever hear the phrase a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ? It applies here. I m guessing that for one reason or another, you got a lot of pressure
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
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          --- David <stonefiddle@...> wrote:
          > I want a 10-11th century russian persona and I play
          >in a very Norse canton, Skorragardr in northern
          >Ansteorra. I started letting my imagination
          > work with my limited knowledge of russian history
          > and came up with a Varangian Guard connection.
          >After the strong comments I received to my
          > first inquiry about a Slavic/Norse persona I gave up
          > working on it for a few months and wonder if I
          >should drop the idea altogether. Maybe I'll move to
          >Kiev.

          Ever hear the phrase "a little knowledge is a
          dangerous thing"? It applies here. I'm guessing that
          for one reason or another, you got a lot of pressure
          to just be a Norse persona, or there were foolish
          vocal people caught up in the "The Norse Built Russia"
          mythos. Feh, I say, Feh! ;)

          The effects of peer pressure aside, the established
          "Varangian Guard" can be researched fairly well:
          start with Byzantine Military. the greeks were
          nothing if not literate, and you can probably even
          find documentation of how much each individual
          Varangian was PAID.....

          But you should move to Kiev anyway, we're far more fun
          than those dour Novgorodians anyway... ;)

          --Sfandra
          --in glee over all the Kievans popping up.....
          the only problem w/ being Kievan is having people
          complement me on my "beautiful Byzantine garb..."
          *sigh* ;D ;)


          ******************
          Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
          KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
          Haus Von Drakenklaue
          Kingdom of the East
          ******************
          Never 'pearl' your butt.

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        • christopher chastain
          ... I ll stay with Novgorod, atleast our saint knows how to talk down a Mongol horde invasion! (Alexander Nevsky) Dmitrii If you must choose between two
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
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            >>>But you should move to Kiev anyway, we're far more funthan those dour Novgorodians anyway... ;)<<<

            I'll stay with Novgorod, atleast our saint knows how to talk down a Mongol horde invasion! (Alexander Nevsky)

            Dmitrii "If you must choose between two paths, either of which will bring death and defeat, then choose the path wherein you die fighting for honor and justice." Pan Ku


            To: sig@yahoogroups.comFrom: seonaid13@...: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:13:59 -0700Subject: Re: [sig] Re: New to Group and Trying to Research 10th c. Kievan Rus




            --- David <stonefiddle@...> wrote:> I want a 10-11th century russian persona and I play>in a very Norse canton, Skorragardr in northern>Ansteorra. I started letting my imagination> work with my limited knowledge of russian history> and came up with a Varangian Guard connection. >After the strong comments I received to my> first inquiry about a Slavic/Norse persona I gave up> working on it for a few months and wonder if I>should drop the idea altogether. Maybe I'll move to>Kiev.Ever hear the phrase "a little knowledge is adangerous thing"? It applies here. I'm guessing thatfor one reason or another, you got a lot of pressureto just be a Norse persona, or there were foolishvocal people caught up in the "The Norse Built Russia"mythos. Feh, I say, Feh! ;) The effects of peer pressure aside, the established"Varangian Guard" can be researched fairly well: start with Byzantine Military. the greeks werenothing if not literate, and you can probably evenfind documentation of how much each individualVarangian was PAID.....But you should move to Kiev anyway, we're far more funthan those dour Novgorodians anyway... ;)--Sfandra--in glee over all the Kievans popping up.....the only problem w/ being Kievan is having peoplecomplement me on my "beautiful Byzantine garb..."*sigh* ;D ;)******************Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva ChernigovaKOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoirHaus Von DrakenklaueKingdom of the East******************Never 'pearl' your butt.__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com






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          • charles stefanich
            O.K. a shameless plug for Slavic U. There are a couple of great classes on Russian clothing scheduled to be taught. If for some unfortunate reason you can t
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
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              O.K. a shameless plug for Slavic U. There are a couple of great classes on Russian clothing scheduled to be taught. If for some unfortunate reason you can't join us in the Midrealm this December 8, we are attempting to get all the class notes in cd form to share with everyone.
              Valkai Istvan

              apacuska@... wrote:
              David asked about history on the internet:
              I started letting my imagination
              work with my limited knowledge of russian history and came up with a
              Varangian Guard connection. After the strong comments I received to my
              first inquiry about a Slavic/Norse persona I gave up working on it for a
              few months and wonder if I should drop the idea altogether. Maybe I'l
              move to Kiev.

              Hi David,

              Two comments. First, it depends on the source of the history - as with anything, the internet is filled with as much accurate information as inaccurate information and where you get it has as much to do with accuracy on the internet as it does when you get it from books. I recall lengthy discussions with professors, for example, of why Wikipedia is not to bereferenced as a source for term papers and theses. On the other hand, there are some pretty good resources out there.

              Second, without knowing what the objections were to your persona among the Norse goup, I don't know why there would be an objection to a Slavic/Norse persona in Novgorod. It was a *major* trade location between the Scandinavian and Kievan populaces and a large number of Norse lived there (supported by archeological, historical and anthropological sources) *and* intermarried with Novgorodians. That the Varangian guard was Norse is widely accepted among scholars and historians. Even if your only historical reference is Vernadsky (who's somewhat out of date, but only partially) you'd still have solid history on which to base your persona.

              So, if I were you and I wanted such a persona, I'd simply start doing more research and read more Kievan history from reputable sources in order to support your position. Additionally, knowing how lore-bound the Norse types can be, I know for a fact that there are references in the Sagas to Novogorod and the Varangians, including the marriage of various Kievan princesses to Norse kings (I don't have them with me at work so I can't give you the exact quotes and references).

              Aleksa




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            • Iustin Branov
              I love you. My wife gave me the look when I suggested a trip to Slavic U. from Vermont, but this CD... I love you. On another note, any recommendations on
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
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                I love you. My wife gave me 'the look' when I
                suggested a trip to Slavic U. from Vermont, but this
                CD... I love you.

                On another note, any recommendations on good books on
                Crimean history up until 11th c. or so? My persona is
                11th c. Rus from Crimea, though his father is from
                Kiev (a merchant) and his mother from Constantinople.


                Iustin

                --- charles stefanich <mos6238@...> wrote:

                > O.K. a shameless plug for Slavic U. There are a
                > couple of great classes on Russian clothing
                > scheduled to be taught. If for some unfortunate
                > reason you can't join us in the Midrealm this
                > December 8, we are attempting to get all the class
                > notes in cd form to share with everyone.
                > Valkai Istvan


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              • Sfandra
                ... Me too. Boston to Slavic U is only marginally less expensive than Burlington (Burlington is smaller, therefore proportionately more expensive). Plus my
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
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                  --- Iustin Branov <iustinbranov@...> wrote:

                  > I love you. My wife gave me 'the look' when I
                  > suggested a trip to Slavic U. from Vermont, but this
                  > CD... I love you.

                  Me too. Boston to Slavic U is only marginally less
                  expensive than Burlington (Burlington is smaller,
                  therefore proportionately more expensive).

                  Plus my fiancee's birthday is the 9th, he wants me
                  around that weekend....

                  --Sfandra
                  --(mundanely a Vermontster trapped in Taxachusetts...)

                  ******************
                  Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                  KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                  Haus Von Drakenklaue
                  Kingdom of the East
                  ******************
                  Never 'pearl' your butt.

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • christopher chastain
                  Any way this could become a road show? Us Trimarians are starting to feel left out in the sunshine kingdom! Dmitrii If you must choose between two paths,
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
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                    Any way this could become a road show? Us Trimarians are starting to feel left out in the sunshine kingdom!


                    Dmitrii

                    "If you must choose between two paths, either of which will bring death and defeat, then choose the path wherein you die fighting for honor and justice." Pan Ku


                    To: sig@yahoogroups.comFrom: mos6238@...: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:01:00 -0700Subject: Re: [sig] Re: New to Group and Trying to Research 10th c. Kievan Rus




                    O.K. a shameless plug for Slavic U. There are a couple of great classes on Russian clothing scheduled to be taught. If for some unfortunate reason you can't join us in the Midrealm this December 8, we are attempting to get all the class notes in cd form to share with everyone.Valkai Istvanapacuska@... wrote:David asked about history on the internet: I started letting my imaginationwork with my limited knowledge of russian history and came up with aVarangian Guard connection. After the strong comments I received to myfirst inquiry about a Slavic/Norse persona I gave up working on it for afew months and wonder if I should drop the idea altogether. Maybe I'lmove to Kiev.Hi David, Two comments. First, it depends on the source of the history - as with anything, the internet is filled with as much accurate information as inaccurate information and where you get it has as much to do with accuracy on the internet as it does when you get it from books. I recall lengthy discussions with professors, for example, of why Wikipedia is not to bereferenced as a source for term papers and theses. On the other hand, there are some pretty good resources out there. Second, without knowing what the objections were to your persona among the Norse goup, I don't know why there would be an objection to a Slavic/Norse persona in Novgorod. It was a *major* trade location between the Scandinavian and Kievan populaces and a large number of Norse lived there (supported by archeological, historical and anthropological sources) *and* intermarried with Novgorodians. That the Varangian guard was Norse is widely accepted among scholars and historians. Even if your only historical reference is Vernadsky (who's somewhat out of date, but only partially) you'd still have solid history on which to base your persona. So, if I were you and I wanted such a persona, I'd simply start doing more research and read more Kievan history from reputable sources in order to support your position. Additionally, knowing how lore-bound the Norse types can be, I know for a fact that there are references in the Sagas to Novogorod and the Varangians, including the marriage of various Kievan princesses to Norse kings (I don't have them with me at work so I can't give you the exact quotes and references). Aleksa__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                  • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                    After the strong comments I received to my ... for a ... I l ... You could move to Kiev, but there s no reason to drop your persona idea if that s what you
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 27, 2007
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                      After the strong comments I received to my
                      > first inquiry about a Slavic/Norse persona I gave up working on it
                      for a
                      > few months and wonder if I should drop the idea altogether. Maybe
                      I'l
                      > move to Kiev.

                      You could move to Kiev, but there's no reason to drop your persona
                      idea if that's what you really want to persue. It's a journey, so it
                      is expected you know less when you start than you will later on. So
                      to the people delivering "strong comments," I say "pull your head in"
                      or I might be more polite and say "so what resources do you
                      recommend?" If someone comes out with something you think is
                      incorrect, you just say "that's interesting, where did you find out
                      about that?" Or, "that's interesting, I was reading <insert source>
                      and it said <whatever it said.>" It's not your fault if people don't
                      know how to have scholarly conversations. Also, you should make
                      really funky garb and look better than everyone. Start fashions,
                      hahahaha!

                      > How do I know what history I find on the internet is real or
                      fiction?

                      Footnotes or other citations are a good thing to look for. Then you
                      can go and check them out for yourself. Also, consider the author. Is
                      this person a professor? A laurel? A member of SIG list? ;) You can
                      always check back here with a "I found this info, written by this
                      person, what do you think?" If you want to get into some serious
                      scholarship though, you'll might have to look further afield; but
                      then, the net is the best place for "how to" articles, since there
                      are, for example, heaps of dress diaries and things which you won't
                      find in books.

                      To cut a long story short, do whatever you like Mate!
                      :)
                      Rosie
                    • sergius197316428
                      Just some random thoughts from a random person.... ... Slavic/Norse persona I gave up working on it for a few months and wonder if I should drop the idea
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 27, 2007
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                        Just some random thoughts from a random person....
                        > After the strong comments I received to my first inquiry about a
                        Slavic/Norse persona I gave up working on it for a few months and
                        wonder if I should drop the idea altogether. Maybe I'll move to Kiev.
                        >
                        > You could move to Kiev, but there's no reason to drop your persona
                        > idea if that's what you really want to pursue.

                        This is the basis of research. If you turn it around, what you seem to
                        be asking is "Was their a slavic/norse interaction, how did it work
                        and how can I fit in?" It's a great question, and although it's been
                        attacked by all the factions I can think of, you just might be able to
                        synthesize something new. Which leads to...
                        >
                        > > How do I know what history I find on the internet is real or
                        > fiction?
                        >
                        I agree with the citations as a go to, but if you are not working with
                        a scholarly source you REALLY have to check their sources. In reality,
                        you need to do this with scholarly sources too as people get wrapped
                        up in trying to prove their point rather than finding facts some
                        times. A lot of times, all you try and do is get a consensus, and you
                        have to leave it at that. Can you REALLY know how a person thought
                        1000 years ago? Just keep plugging away at it, and at some point,
                        you'll be the expert, or at least the most knowledgible in your field.
                        Fight the good fight and good luck. Sergius B
                      • L.M. Kies
                        How would moving to Kiev help your persona? There is no more evidence of Scandinavians in Kiev than there are in Novgorod. Quite the contrary. As someone
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 27, 2007
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                          How would moving to Kiev help your persona? There is no more evidence of Scandinavians in Kiev than there are in Novgorod. Quite the contrary. As someone else has pointed out, they are a strong presence in the Novgorod area.

                          The way you know if what your reading is real or not, is by running it past your bull$^! meter. How do you callibrate your bull$#! meter? By getting educated. Compare it to the other things you've read. Follow up the references. Read real books (which can be unreliable and outdated, but at least had to be good enough that someone was willing to pay money to print them) from a decent library (who's purchasing policy should help weed out the really useless books). Look at the credentials of the author. Look at the agenda of the author. I often find it interesting to 'search' for an author and see what else they've written, who they've worked for, and what other people are saying about them.

                          The first question most authors wrestle with is the origin of the term "Rus". It seems to be used in different ways in period texts, which doesn't help matters. Sometimes it is pretty clearly synonymous with Swedish Varangians on their way to Byzantium, sometimes it is the peoples living around Novgorod, sometimes it seems to be just the Kievan princes and their druzhina, sometimes it includes the tribes that pay tribute to the Riurikid princes, etc. etc.

                          Honestly, except for the extreme fanatics, no one doubts that there were Scandinavians in the land now known as Russia. The debate centers around the extent of their influence. (And we see similar debates over the influence of Byzantium, the Turkic Near East, the steppe nomads, the Mongols, the Khazars, Poland, Hungary, western Europe, etc.)

                          May be a silly analogy will help. If Russia is a cookie...

                          Flour, eggs, sugar, butter, baking powder, etc. - the fundamental ingredients of the cookie. (Eastern Slav tribes plus local Finnic/Baltic tribes plus steppe peoples?)

                          Chocolate chips/icing - not necessary to make a cookie, but make it extra yummy (Byzantine?)

                          Nuts - definitely add flavor, but people fight over whether they're a good thing or not (Mongols?)

                          Vanilla - adds richness, but in the end, a lot of people wouldn't notice if it was missing (Vikings?)

                          Hmmm. I'm not sure where the Khazars and Volga Bulgars would fit in. Well, it's not meant to be a perfect analogy anyway. And now I'm hungry... ;-)

                          Sofya




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David H.
                          Wow, Thank you very much to all who responded to my post. I have been away from my computer for a couple of days and was pleasantly surprised by so many
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 28, 2007
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                            Wow, Thank you very much to all who responded to my post. I have been away from my computer for a couple of days and was pleasantly surprised by so many helpful replies. It will take me a little bit of time to read and digest all that was mentioned. A few details I will add about my character is that I would like to be a Russian who has contact, at various periods of life, with the West (like the Norse and the Celts) as well as Constantinople. I am a calligrapher/illuminator and want to have learned my art in the west amongst the Celts. Sadly, I don't find much information on the net about the calligraphic arts in Russia. Bolshoi spasibo for all the help this group has given me.

                            David


                            To: sig@yahoogroups.comFrom: lkies@...: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:58:10 -0400Subject: RE: [sig] Re: New to Group and Trying to Research 10th c. Kievan Rus



                            How would moving to Kiev help your persona? There is no more evidence of Scandinavians in Kiev than there are in Novgorod. Quite the contrary. As someone else has pointed out, they are a strong presence in the Novgorod area.The way you know if what your reading is real or not, is by running it past your bull$^! meter. How do you callibrate your bull$#! meter? By getting educated. Compare it to the other things you've read. Follow up the references. Read real books (which can be unreliable and outdated, but at least had to be good enough that someone was willing to pay money to print them) from a decent library (who's purchasing policy should help weed out the really useless books). Look at the credentials of the author. Look at the agenda of the author. I often find it interesting to 'search' for an author and see what else they've written, who they've worked for, and what other people are saying about them.The first question most authors wrestle with is the origin of the term "Rus". It seems to be used in different ways in period texts, which doesn't help matters. Sometimes it is pretty clearly synonymous with Swedish Varangians on their way to Byzantium, sometimes it is the peoples living around Novgorod, sometimes it seems to be just the Kievan princes and their druzhina, sometimes it includes the tribes that pay tribute to the Riurikid princes, etc. etc.Honestly, except for the extreme fanatics, no one doubts that there were Scandinavians in the land now known as Russia. The debate centers around the extent of their influence. (And we see similar debates over the influence of Byzantium, the Turkic Near East, the steppe nomads, the Mongols, the Khazars, Poland, Hungary, western Europe, etc.)May be a silly analogy will help. If Russia is a cookie... Flour, eggs, sugar, butter, baking powder, etc. - the fundamental ingredients of the cookie. (Eastern Slav tribes plus local Finnic/Baltic tribes plus steppe peoples?)Chocolate chips/icing - not necessary to make a cookie, but make it extra yummy (Byzantine?)Nuts - definitely add flavor, but people fight over whether they're a good thing or not (Mongols?)Vanilla - adds richness, but in the end, a lot of people wouldn't notice if it was missing (Vikings?)Hmmm. I'm not sure where the Khazars and Volga Bulgars would fit in. Well, it's not meant to be a perfect analogy anyway. And now I'm hungry... ;-)Sofya[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                          • L.M. Kies
                            Did someone say calligraphic arts in Russia ? ;-) Ask and ye shall receive. (Make sure you re sitting down.)
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 28, 2007
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                              Did someone say "calligraphic arts in Russia"? ;-)

                              Ask and ye shall receive. (Make sure you're sitting down.)

                              http://www.nlr.ru/eng/coll/manuscripts/rus_manus.html
                              http://www.palmira.net/arts/nlr/english/pindex.html
                              http://character.webzone.ru/ - look for the dates (IX B. means 9th cent. 1397 г means the year 1397)

                              http://oldrussianscript.mylivepage.ru/

                              http://radzivil.chat.ru/
                              http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/vern/verntoc.html
                              http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nevskii.html
                              http://gopher.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/record.asp?MSID=8122&CollID=58&NStart=51
                              http://varvar.ru/arhiv/gallery/manuscripts_russian/

                              http://www.synaxis.info/azbuka/index.html

                              Medieval Russian Ornament in Full Color: From Illuminated Manuscripts (Dover Pictorial Archive Series)
                              Paperback: 112 pages
                              Publisher: Dover Publications (November 22, 1994)
                              Language: English
                              ISBN-10: 0486282589
                              ISBN-13: 978-0486282589

                              Good luck!

                              Sofya

                              >------- Original Message -------
                              >
                              Sadly, I don't find much information on the net about the calligraphic arts in Russia...








                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David H.
                              Thank you for the web links. They re great. I ll also check out the Dover book on Amazon. David To: sig@yahoogroups.comFrom: lkies@jumpgate.netDate: Sun, 28
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 29, 2007
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                                Thank you for the web links. They're great. I'll also check out the Dover book on Amazon.

                                David


                                To: sig@yahoogroups.comFrom: lkies@...: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:56:59 -0400Subject: RE: [sig] Re: New to Group and Trying to Research 10th c. Kievan Rus




                                Did someone say "calligraphic arts in Russia"? ;-)Ask and ye shall receive. (Make sure you're sitting down.)http://www.nlr.ru/eng/coll/manuscripts/rus_manus.htmlhttp://www.palmira.net/arts/nlr/english/pindex.htmlhttp://character.webzone.ru/ - look for the dates (IX B. means 9th cent. 1397 г means the year 1397)http://oldrussianscript.mylivepage.ru/http://radzivil.chat.ru/http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/vern/verntoc.htmlhttp://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nevskii.htmlhttp://gopher.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/record.asp?MSID=8122&CollID=58&NStart=51http://varvar.ru/arhiv/gallery/manuscripts_russian/http://www.synaxis.info/azbuka/index.htmlMedieval Russian Ornament in Full Color: From Illuminated Manuscripts (Dover Pictorial Archive Series) Paperback: 112 pages Publisher: Dover Publications (November 22, 1994) Language: English ISBN-10: 0486282589 ISBN-13: 978-0486282589 Good luck!Sofya>------- Original Message ------->Sadly, I don't find much information on the net about the calligraphic arts in Russia...[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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