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Re: [sig] Re: An interesting image...

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  • Tim Nalley
    Ditto. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in Peter s court to see the success ratios of courtiers who converted caftans to Russian versions of
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
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      Ditto. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in
      Peter's court to see the success ratios of courtiers
      who converted caftans to Russian versions of
      prevailing French fashions.
      --- lord_varsonofii <kaskus@...> wrote:

      > Russia's clothing actually changed very little until
      > Peter the great
      > began the westernization of fashion styles. I would
      > bet that the
      > clothing depicted is very much the same as that from
      > period.
      > ~ Varsonofii
      >
      > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Sam W"
      > <wootduosmaster@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kostromatsar.jpg
      > >
      > > "Illumination from a book dated to 1673. It
      > represents a crowd at the
      > > Ipatiev Monastery imporing Mikhail Romanov's
      > mother to let him go to
      > Moscow
      > > and become their tsar."
      > >
      > > Now, to me, what those people are wearing wouldn't
      > look out of place
      > before
      > > 1600... Right?
      > >
      > > ~Kotek
      > > (Totally doing research for his essay)
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >



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    • junediamanti
      Long time lurker answering here, hope I m correctly on topic, if not, will accept appropriate modding with due humility... ... Footwraps and rhubakha shirts
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
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        Long time lurker answering here, hope I'm correctly on topic, if not,
        will accept appropriate modding with due humility...

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
        >
        Footwraps and rhubakha shirts
        > were still standard issue in the Russian army until
        > the early 1950s!

        In a BBC documentary of the 1980s about life in Russia one episode
        showed rookie soldiers getting footwrappings as standard issue socks.
        And looking appalled, and confused.

        > But the picture is great, and as usual, its just
        > the formal last note of a very long dance that his
        > father had orchestrated and played starting 5-10 years
        > before. Mikhial's father was a major mover and shaker
        > in kicking the Poles out of Russia during the Time of
        > Troubles and had built up alot of political clout in
        > the process. But his noble equals weren't about to
        > bend knee to someone they felt was more of an equal
        > tan anything, but they still needed a titular head to
        > cite when they banged the Realm back into shape from
        > the tatters it was in.
        > So, they compromised and made his 16 year old son,
        > Mikhial, Tsar to avoid political manuering and
        > potential Time of Troubles II. He was very intelligent
        > and very religious and not very outspoken, so not
        > threatening to their own individual powerbases. His
        > father was placated by becoming Metropolitan so he had
        > his clout, but not direct power, and he advised his
        > son politically and kept a hand on him, just in case
        > it went to his head! A very pragmatic, very Russian
        > solution to a potential political crisis and civil
        > war.

        I'm currently in the midst of some heavy research about this period
        (and thus feel confident to chime in). Mikhail's father was Fedor
        Nikitich Romanov. Fedor was the nearest male relative to the extinct
        Riurikovich dynasty through two lines of descent: by marriage, via
        their ancestress, Anastasia Romanovna Iur'eva Zakharina, the first
        wife of Ivan IV, and also as the last connection of the Shuisky clan,
        who were also of Riurikovich descent.

        Boris Godunov saw the threat of Fedor Nikitich as a rival and had him
        forcibly tonsured as a monk, Filaret. Ditto his wife, who became the
        nun, Marfa. Forced taking of orders was a time-honoured method of
        neutralising people you were squeamish about murdering, because it was
        mandatory you could not rule if you took holy orders. For example, if
        Vasily III had recovered from his final illness, during which he
        begged to take holy orders, he'd not have been able to rule.

        Boris would have been reluctant to aggravate already testy boyar clan
        loyalties, which had been fractured considerably by the policies of
        Ivan IV. Hence his reluctance to just do away with Fedor Nikitich.

        In any case, after Boris died, and during the Time of Troubles,
        Filaret was held captive by the Poles for some time, but was elected
        Patriarch in his absence and duly returned to be de facto ruler of
        Russia for much of his (less forcible) son's reign.

        I joined here, more for costume expertise, btw, and will further
        comment: I find your collective and separate erudition truly amazing!
      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
        Greetings! FYI First Peter I ordered to wear Hungarian style Kaftans. It was about teh very start of his reign. Only in 10-15 years did he declare French style
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
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          Greetings!

          FYI
          First Peter I ordered to wear Hungarian style Kaftans. It was about teh very start of his reign. Only in 10-15 years did he declare French style should prevail.

          >
          > Ditto. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in
          > Peter's court to see the success ratios of courtiers
          > who converted caftans to Russian versions of
          > prevailing French fashions.
          > --- lord_varsonofii <kaskus@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Russia's clothing actually changed very little until
          > > Peter the great
          > > began the westernization of fashion styles. I would
          > > bet that the
          > > clothing depicted is very much the same as that from
          > > period.
          > > ~ Varsonofii
          > >
          > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Sam W"
          > > <wootduosmaster@...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kostromatsar.jpg
          > > >
          > > > "Illumination from a book dated to 1673. It
          > > represents a crowd at the
          > > > Ipatiev Monastery imporing Mikhail Romanov's
          > > mother to let him go to
          > > Moscow
          > > > and become their tsar."
          > > >
          > > > Now, to me, what those people are wearing wouldn't
          > > look out of place
          > > before
          > > > 1600... Right?
          > > >
          > > > ~Kotek
          > > > (Totally doing research for his essay)
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > > removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
          >
          >
          >
        • Tim Nalley
          Smart move. Change in stages. Hungarian is more tailored but not as much as French fashion. Then the French change came after the Streltsy revolt but before
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
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            Smart move. Change in stages. Hungarian is more
            tailored but not as much as French fashion. Then the
            French change came after the Streltsy revolt but
            before the Western model units were expanded. Very
            interesting! My grasp of history at that point is a
            bit hazy.
            'dok
            --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
            wrote:

            >
            > Greetings!
            >
            > FYI
            > First Peter I ordered to wear Hungarian style
            > Kaftans. It was about teh very start of his reign.
            > Only in 10-15 years did he declare French style
            > should prevail.
            >
            > >
            > > Ditto. I would love to have been a fly on the wall
            > in
            > > Peter's court to see the success ratios of
            > courtiers
            > > who converted caftans to Russian versions of
            > > prevailing French fashions.
            > > --- lord_varsonofii <kaskus@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > Russia's clothing actually changed very little
            > until
            > > > Peter the great
            > > > began the westernization of fashion styles. I
            > would
            > > > bet that the
            > > > clothing depicted is very much the same as that
            > from
            > > > period.
            > > > ~ Varsonofii
            > > >
            > > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Sam W"
            > > > <wootduosmaster@...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kostromatsar.jpg
            > > > >
            > > > > "Illumination from a book dated to 1673. It
            > > > represents a crowd at the
            > > > > Ipatiev Monastery imporing Mikhail Romanov's
            > > > mother to let him go to
            > > > Moscow
            > > > > and become their tsar."
            > > > >
            > > > > Now, to me, what those people are wearing
            > wouldn't
            > > > look out of place
            > > > before
            > > > > 1600... Right?
            > > > >
            > > > > ~Kotek
            > > > > (Totally doing research for his essay)
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > > > removed]
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.
            > Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
            >
            http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >



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          • L.M. Kies
            I have some larger photos, but I m not sure they ll help. Contact me off-list and we ll figure it out. ... Sofya ... Oh, random on costume, Sofya, do you
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
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              I have some larger photos, but I'm not sure they'll help. Contact me off-list and we'll figure it out.

              :-)

              Sofya

              >------- Original Message -------
              >
              Oh, random on costume, Sofya, do you happen to have a bigger photo of
              your opashen? A dressmaker friend has asked me technical questions and I
              can't answer them, but a bigger photo might :D Pretty please!

              Emy
              x





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