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Re: [sig] An interesting image...

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  • Tim Nalley
    Its a great example of propaganda as well. Like in the States, the progressive areas in Russia even to this day are in the cities. The rest of teh country is
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
      Its a great example of propaganda as well. Like in the
      States, the progressive areas in Russia even to this
      day are in the cities. The rest of teh country is
      quite conservative, and their clothing still reflected
      that greatly until the eighteenth century, and for the
      working classes and lower merchantile levels until
      textile manufacturing made "modern" clothes cheap
      enough to be affordable and accesible. Even so,
      caftans could still be regularly seen in agricultural
      pursuits past the October revolution. So
      medieval.....lots of that still around much later tan
      1700. Much, much later. Footwraps and rhubakha shirts
      were still standard issue in the Russian army until
      the early 1950s!
      But the picture is great, and as usual, its just
      the formal last note of a very long dance that his
      father had orchestrated and played starting 5-10 years
      before. Mikhial's father was a major mover and shaker
      in kicking the Poles out of Russia during the Time of
      Troubles and had built up alot of political clout in
      the process. But his noble equals weren't about to
      bend knee to someone they felt was more of an equal
      tan anything, but they still needed a titular head to
      cite when they banged the Realm back into shape from
      the tatters it was in.
      So, they compromised and made his 16 year old son,
      Mikhial, Tsar to avoid political manuering and
      potential Time of Troubles II. He was very intelligent
      and very religious and not very outspoken, so not
      threatening to their own individual powerbases. His
      father was placated by becoming Metropolitan so he had
      his clout, but not direct power, and he advised his
      son politically and kept a hand on him, just in case
      it went to his head! A very pragmatic, very Russian
      solution to a potential political crisis and civil
      war. <melanie@...> wrote:

      > I did have a nice quote from 'someone authoritative'
      > (academically) who
      > said that basically medieval continues to Peter the
      > Great in Russia as
      > far as clothing is concerned. Now I can't remember
      > who, although I do
      > have the article _somewhere_, but beyond that I
      > wouldn't like to comment :¬)
      >
      > Oh, random on costume, Sofya, do you happen to have
      > a bigger photo of
      > your opashen? A dressmaker friend has asked me
      > technical questions and I
      > can't answer them, but a bigger photo might :D
      > Pretty please!
      >
      > Emy
      > x
      >
      > Sam W wrote:
      > >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kostromatsar.jpg
      > >
      > > "Illumination from a book dated to 1673. It
      > represents a crowd at the
      > > Ipatiev Monastery imporing Mikhail Romanov's
      > mother to let him go to Moscow
      > > and become their tsar."
      > >
      > > Now, to me, what those people are wearing wouldn't
      > look out of place before
      > > 1600... Right?
      > >
      > > ~Kotek
      > > (Totally doing research for his essay)
      >
      >




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    • lord_varsonofii
      Russia s clothing actually changed very little until Peter the great began the westernization of fashion styles. I would bet that the clothing depicted is very
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
        Russia's clothing actually changed very little until Peter the great
        began the westernization of fashion styles. I would bet that the
        clothing depicted is very much the same as that from period.
        ~ Varsonofii

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Sam W" <wootduosmaster@...> wrote:
        >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kostromatsar.jpg
        >
        > "Illumination from a book dated to 1673. It represents a crowd at the
        > Ipatiev Monastery imporing Mikhail Romanov's mother to let him go to
        Moscow
        > and become their tsar."
        >
        > Now, to me, what those people are wearing wouldn't look out of place
        before
        > 1600... Right?
        >
        > ~Kotek
        > (Totally doing research for his essay)
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Tim Nalley
        Ditto. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in Peter s court to see the success ratios of courtiers who converted caftans to Russian versions of
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
          Ditto. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in
          Peter's court to see the success ratios of courtiers
          who converted caftans to Russian versions of
          prevailing French fashions.
          --- lord_varsonofii <kaskus@...> wrote:

          > Russia's clothing actually changed very little until
          > Peter the great
          > began the westernization of fashion styles. I would
          > bet that the
          > clothing depicted is very much the same as that from
          > period.
          > ~ Varsonofii
          >
          > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Sam W"
          > <wootduosmaster@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kostromatsar.jpg
          > >
          > > "Illumination from a book dated to 1673. It
          > represents a crowd at the
          > > Ipatiev Monastery imporing Mikhail Romanov's
          > mother to let him go to
          > Moscow
          > > and become their tsar."
          > >
          > > Now, to me, what those people are wearing wouldn't
          > look out of place
          > before
          > > 1600... Right?
          > >
          > > ~Kotek
          > > (Totally doing research for his essay)
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
        • junediamanti
          Long time lurker answering here, hope I m correctly on topic, if not, will accept appropriate modding with due humility... ... Footwraps and rhubakha shirts
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
            Long time lurker answering here, hope I'm correctly on topic, if not,
            will accept appropriate modding with due humility...

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
            >
            Footwraps and rhubakha shirts
            > were still standard issue in the Russian army until
            > the early 1950s!

            In a BBC documentary of the 1980s about life in Russia one episode
            showed rookie soldiers getting footwrappings as standard issue socks.
            And looking appalled, and confused.

            > But the picture is great, and as usual, its just
            > the formal last note of a very long dance that his
            > father had orchestrated and played starting 5-10 years
            > before. Mikhial's father was a major mover and shaker
            > in kicking the Poles out of Russia during the Time of
            > Troubles and had built up alot of political clout in
            > the process. But his noble equals weren't about to
            > bend knee to someone they felt was more of an equal
            > tan anything, but they still needed a titular head to
            > cite when they banged the Realm back into shape from
            > the tatters it was in.
            > So, they compromised and made his 16 year old son,
            > Mikhial, Tsar to avoid political manuering and
            > potential Time of Troubles II. He was very intelligent
            > and very religious and not very outspoken, so not
            > threatening to their own individual powerbases. His
            > father was placated by becoming Metropolitan so he had
            > his clout, but not direct power, and he advised his
            > son politically and kept a hand on him, just in case
            > it went to his head! A very pragmatic, very Russian
            > solution to a potential political crisis and civil
            > war.

            I'm currently in the midst of some heavy research about this period
            (and thus feel confident to chime in). Mikhail's father was Fedor
            Nikitich Romanov. Fedor was the nearest male relative to the extinct
            Riurikovich dynasty through two lines of descent: by marriage, via
            their ancestress, Anastasia Romanovna Iur'eva Zakharina, the first
            wife of Ivan IV, and also as the last connection of the Shuisky clan,
            who were also of Riurikovich descent.

            Boris Godunov saw the threat of Fedor Nikitich as a rival and had him
            forcibly tonsured as a monk, Filaret. Ditto his wife, who became the
            nun, Marfa. Forced taking of orders was a time-honoured method of
            neutralising people you were squeamish about murdering, because it was
            mandatory you could not rule if you took holy orders. For example, if
            Vasily III had recovered from his final illness, during which he
            begged to take holy orders, he'd not have been able to rule.

            Boris would have been reluctant to aggravate already testy boyar clan
            loyalties, which had been fractured considerably by the policies of
            Ivan IV. Hence his reluctance to just do away with Fedor Nikitich.

            In any case, after Boris died, and during the Time of Troubles,
            Filaret was held captive by the Poles for some time, but was elected
            Patriarch in his absence and duly returned to be de facto ruler of
            Russia for much of his (less forcible) son's reign.

            I joined here, more for costume expertise, btw, and will further
            comment: I find your collective and separate erudition truly amazing!
          • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
            Greetings! FYI First Peter I ordered to wear Hungarian style Kaftans. It was about teh very start of his reign. Only in 10-15 years did he declare French style
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
              Greetings!

              FYI
              First Peter I ordered to wear Hungarian style Kaftans. It was about teh very start of his reign. Only in 10-15 years did he declare French style should prevail.

              >
              > Ditto. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in
              > Peter's court to see the success ratios of courtiers
              > who converted caftans to Russian versions of
              > prevailing French fashions.
              > --- lord_varsonofii <kaskus@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Russia's clothing actually changed very little until
              > > Peter the great
              > > began the westernization of fashion styles. I would
              > > bet that the
              > > clothing depicted is very much the same as that from
              > > period.
              > > ~ Varsonofii
              > >
              > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Sam W"
              > > <wootduosmaster@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kostromatsar.jpg
              > > >
              > > > "Illumination from a book dated to 1673. It
              > > represents a crowd at the
              > > > Ipatiev Monastery imporing Mikhail Romanov's
              > > mother to let him go to
              > > Moscow
              > > > and become their tsar."
              > > >
              > > > Now, to me, what those people are wearing wouldn't
              > > look out of place
              > > before
              > > > 1600... Right?
              > > >
              > > > ~Kotek
              > > > (Totally doing research for his essay)
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > > removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________________________________________________________________________________
              > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
              >
              >
              >
            • Tim Nalley
              Smart move. Change in stages. Hungarian is more tailored but not as much as French fashion. Then the French change came after the Streltsy revolt but before
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
                Smart move. Change in stages. Hungarian is more
                tailored but not as much as French fashion. Then the
                French change came after the Streltsy revolt but
                before the Western model units were expanded. Very
                interesting! My grasp of history at that point is a
                bit hazy.
                'dok
                --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
                wrote:

                >
                > Greetings!
                >
                > FYI
                > First Peter I ordered to wear Hungarian style
                > Kaftans. It was about teh very start of his reign.
                > Only in 10-15 years did he declare French style
                > should prevail.
                >
                > >
                > > Ditto. I would love to have been a fly on the wall
                > in
                > > Peter's court to see the success ratios of
                > courtiers
                > > who converted caftans to Russian versions of
                > > prevailing French fashions.
                > > --- lord_varsonofii <kaskus@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Russia's clothing actually changed very little
                > until
                > > > Peter the great
                > > > began the westernization of fashion styles. I
                > would
                > > > bet that the
                > > > clothing depicted is very much the same as that
                > from
                > > > period.
                > > > ~ Varsonofii
                > > >
                > > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Sam W"
                > > > <wootduosmaster@...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kostromatsar.jpg
                > > > >
                > > > > "Illumination from a book dated to 1673. It
                > > > represents a crowd at the
                > > > > Ipatiev Monastery imporing Mikhail Romanov's
                > > > mother to let him go to
                > > > Moscow
                > > > > and become their tsar."
                > > > >
                > > > > Now, to me, what those people are wearing
                > wouldn't
                > > > look out of place
                > > > before
                > > > > 1600... Right?
                > > > >
                > > > > ~Kotek
                > > > > (Totally doing research for his essay)
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > > > removed]
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                > > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.
                > Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
                >
                http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                >
                >
                >
                >



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              • L.M. Kies
                I have some larger photos, but I m not sure they ll help. Contact me off-list and we ll figure it out. ... Sofya ... Oh, random on costume, Sofya, do you
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 11, 2007
                  I have some larger photos, but I'm not sure they'll help. Contact me off-list and we'll figure it out.

                  :-)

                  Sofya

                  >------- Original Message -------
                  >
                  Oh, random on costume, Sofya, do you happen to have a bigger photo of
                  your opashen? A dressmaker friend has asked me technical questions and I
                  can't answer them, but a bigger photo might :D Pretty please!

                  Emy
                  x





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