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Russian Baron

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  • Beth Park
    Greetings all, I know you have talked about this before but is there a more 13th century-ish name for a Russian Baron? My lord and I are to step up as the new
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 29, 2007
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      Greetings all,

      I know you have talked about this before but is there a more 13th century-ish name for a Russian Baron?

      My lord and I are to step up as the new Baron and Baroness of The Beautiful Land of Blatha An Oir (Pierce County, Washington) in September and he was looking for something more persona like.

      Thanks,
      Elspeth

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sasha
      From the prior post: Baron Posadnik ðÏÓÁÄÎÉË poh-sahd-neek governor of a city-state Voevoda ÷ÏÅ×ÏÄÁ voy-yeh-vohd-ah Means commander or
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 30, 2007
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        From the prior post:

        Baron
        Posadnik
        ��������
        poh-sahd-neek
        "governor of a city-state"

        Voevoda
        �������
        voy-yeh-vohd-ah
        Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones

        Baroness
        Posadnitsa
        ���������
        poh-sahd-nee-tsah
        "governor of a city-state"

        Voevoda
        �������
        voy-yeh-vohd-ah
        Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones
        I.e. the "mayor" of Novgorod was a Posadnik. The "general" of their army was
        a Voevoda.


        And Also:

        Addressing nobility:
        Predslava says " Gospodin is OK as a form of address, NOT as a *title*. You
        could actually try the vocative: gospodine [gohs-poh-DEE-neh], as in "hey,
        your lordship!" (well, OK, a little more polite than that!)
        "Vy" as a respectful form of address is way OOP! Even in the 18th century,
        satyrists derided the need to "use the plural to address a single person".
        In period, it's "ty" for one person (see Spanish "tu", German "du" etc), and
        "vy" for a plural (Spanish "vosotros", German "ihr" etc).
        Ksenia Alexandrova says: Dvoryanin (dvoryanka) would be a useful term for
        minor nobility, and as a general term of address for dukes and Counts, but
        usually refereed to lesser nobility. It may be translated as "courtsman." It
        was more normal for female family members of the courtiers to be identified
        as "daughter of dvoryanin ______________." This term of address referred to
        the courtiers of the Tsar originally, in perhaps the thirteenth century.
        Then, later, it became a general term for everyone noble other than the
        higher nobility.
        There was another term that was used to identify lesser nobility during our
        period was "boyarin" and boyarinya" for females. It is an old word coming
        originally from the council of elders for the dukes/princes. It went out of
        use in the 1600s or so, because they exterminated all the Boyars. The lucky
        ones, apparently, became dvoryanin.
        Predslava adds: "Dvorianin" is really more of a generic term than a title or
        a form of address. Or a descriptive term in late period.
        "Boyarin" is a term whose meaning changed quite a bit during our period,
        from meaning "high notable" -- a sort-of title that could come and go in a
        person's life, and even more so in family history (it was more of an
        indication of a person's social and political standing than a real title)
        all the way to a title defined by law and bestowed by the tsar.
        The (official) Alternate List of Titles is by no means satisfactory because
        too much time is covered. "Boyarin" would be perfectly adequate for an AoA
        recipient if the persona is early, but not at all for a late-period persona,
        so it's been dropped because it generated more arguments than it's worth.
        Personally, I don't like (for my persona) pomestnitsa, so I don't use it. I
        might use "boiarynia" anyway -- it would be unofficial, and might bring up
        arguments with other Russian personae, so I just don't use anything, and let
        myself be called Lady in "foreign" courts. In a "Russian court" situation, I
        would just make sure I was called by my given name + patronymic (Predslava
        Vydrina), that's honorable enough... We (Russian personae) are rather like
        foreigners in the England/France-oriented SCA...

        Baron Soshka Gregor'evich Vilanov
        Known as Sasha
        Kingdom of Trimaris


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
        My husband and I use Posadnik and Posadnitsa and it took our group a bit to remember them but it works really well. Course there is a joke in there as well
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 30, 2007
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          My husband and I use Posadnik and Posadnitsa and it took our group a bit to
          remember them but it works really well. Course there is a joke in there as
          well since both names start with "I" so we are collectively PI Squared.

          Posadnitsa Ianuk

          On 7/30/07, Sasha <sashavilanov@...> wrote:
          >
          > From the prior post:
          >
          > Baron
          > Posadnik
          > ��������
          > poh-sahd-neek
          > "governor of a city-state"
          >
          > Voevoda
          > �������
          > voy-yeh-vohd-ah
          > Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones
          >
          > Baroness
          > Posadnitsa
          > ���������
          > poh-sahd-nee-tsah
          > "governor of a city-state"
          >
          > Voevoda
          > �������
          > voy-yeh-vohd-ah
          > Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones
          > I.e. the "mayor" of Novgorod was a Posadnik. The "general" of their army
          > was
          > a Voevoda.
          >
          >
          > And Also:
          >
          > Addressing nobility:
          > Predslava says " Gospodin is OK as a form of address, NOT as a *title*.
          > You
          > could actually try the vocative: gospodine [gohs-poh-DEE-neh], as in "hey,
          > your lordship!" (well, OK, a little more polite than that!)
          > "Vy" as a respectful form of address is way OOP! Even in the 18th century,
          > satyrists derided the need to "use the plural to address a single person".
          > In period, it's "ty" for one person (see Spanish "tu", German "du" etc),
          > and
          > "vy" for a plural (Spanish "vosotros", German "ihr" etc).
          > Ksenia Alexandrova says: Dvoryanin (dvoryanka) would be a useful term for
          > minor nobility, and as a general term of address for dukes and Counts, but
          > usually refereed to lesser nobility. It may be translated as "courtsman."
          > It
          > was more normal for female family members of the courtiers to be
          > identified
          > as "daughter of dvoryanin ______________." This term of address referred
          > to
          > the courtiers of the Tsar originally, in perhaps the thirteenth century.
          > Then, later, it became a general term for everyone noble other than the
          > higher nobility.
          > There was another term that was used to identify lesser nobility during
          > our
          > period was "boyarin" and boyarinya" for females. It is an old word coming
          > originally from the council of elders for the dukes/princes. It went out
          > of
          > use in the 1600s or so, because they exterminated all the Boyars. The
          > lucky
          > ones, apparently, became dvoryanin.
          > Predslava adds: "Dvorianin" is really more of a generic term than a title
          > or
          > a form of address. Or a descriptive term in late period.
          > "Boyarin" is a term whose meaning changed quite a bit during our period,
          > from meaning "high notable" -- a sort-of title that could come and go in a
          > person's life, and even more so in family history (it was more of an
          > indication of a person's social and political standing than a real title)
          > all the way to a title defined by law and bestowed by the tsar.
          > The (official) Alternate List of Titles is by no means satisfactory
          > because
          > too much time is covered. "Boyarin" would be perfectly adequate for an AoA
          > recipient if the persona is early, but not at all for a late-period
          > persona,
          > so it's been dropped because it generated more arguments than it's worth.
          > Personally, I don't like (for my persona) pomestnitsa, so I don't use it.
          > I
          > might use "boiarynia" anyway -- it would be unofficial, and might bring up
          > arguments with other Russian personae, so I just don't use anything, and
          > let
          > myself be called Lady in "foreign" courts. In a "Russian court" situation,
          > I
          > would just make sure I was called by my given name + patronymic (Predslava
          > Vydrina), that's honorable enough... We (Russian personae) are rather like
          > foreigners in the England/France-oriented SCA...
          >
          > Baron Soshka Gregor'evich Vilanov
          > Known as Sasha
          > Kingdom of Trimaris
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sasha
          Oh yeah, I didn t mention what we used as titles... We went with Baron/Baronessa which we got from a list of available titles at the time. My wife wasn t keen
          Message 4 of 4 , Jul 30, 2007
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            Oh yeah, I didn't mention what we used as titles... We went with
            Baron/Baronessa which we got from a list of available titles at the
            time. My wife wasn't keen on Posadnik which was my first choice. Also
            on that list was "Baranka" for Baroness, which I have no idea where
            that came from.

            Sasha
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