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Re: Gag! (was Re: [sig] English/Russian interaction)

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  • Tamara Duran
    ... And heaven help you if you want a name from a culture that doesn t have a lot of etymological research available in English. I hear you. --Kazimira
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 18, 2007
      On 7/19/07, Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

      > I
      > pity anyone trying to register a name these days,

      And heaven help you if you want a name from a culture that doesn't
      have a lot of etymological research available in English.

      I hear you.

      --Kazimira <-- trying to do *Georgian*, of all things.
    • Patoodle@aol.com
      Well, I *did* manage to get Patricia of Trakai registered in the not so distant past (August 2005). Now, Patricia is my legal first name, so there s only
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 18, 2007
        Well, I *did* manage to get "Patricia of Trakai" registered in the not so distant past (August 2005). Now, "Patricia" is my legal first name, so there's only so much the heralds could do about that. But I was a bit concerned that they weren't going to pass the English word "of" with the Lithuanian place name "Trakai." Fortunately, they let that one go. (Hey, I have more or less wandered into English-speaking lands ... what can I say.)

        Funny thing is, my mundane surname appears to be a perfectly formed Lithuanian man's name circa 1100 CE ... but a man trying to register it would be tripped up by the "SCA names must have at least two components" rule.

        Sveikas,
        Lady Patricia of Trakai








        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tamara Duran <sazabhadri@...>
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 7:13 pm
        Subject: Re: Gag! (was Re: [sig] English/Russian interaction)



        On 7/19/07, Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

        > I
        > pity anyone trying to register a name these days,

        And heaven help you if you want a name from a culture that doesn't
        have a lot of etymological research available in English.

        I hear you.

        --Kazimira <-- trying to do *Georgian*, of all things.




        ________________________________________________________________________
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lewis Tanzos
        ... is ... Nice section on Russianized Christian names. Now can you address the usage rates of the *English* form of names in Russia? If you do, maybe we can
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 18, 2007
          > On the usage rates of Christian names in Russia,
          > please see Predslava's research on the subject which
          is
          > reproduced in the grammar section of my Dictionary.

          Nice section on Russianized Christian names. Now can
          you address the usage rates of the *English* form of
          names in Russia?

          If you do, maybe we can keep this ban from getting
          past the proposal stage.

          - Istvan



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        • Paul W Goldschmidt
          No, and I have no interest in doing so. Your intention is good, but don t get carried away by their game. The Rules for Submission used to say that
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 18, 2007
            No, and I have no interest in doing so. Your intention is good, but
            don't get carried away by their game.

            The Rules for Submission used to say that "significant contact"
            between the cultures was sufficient and that you didn't need to show
            that the bi-lingual names actually existed. The revisionism that you
            have to show examples of bi-lingual names never even came up until
            1995 or so, and was soundly rejected as recently as 2000. But the
            College is a different animal these days it would seem....

            I am reminded of the letter I read in the heraldic files (from 1975
            or so) where a submitter accosted the College with the statement
            "What right does the College have to tell me what I call myself in
            the SCA ? Its sole mandate is to record the arms that I bear!" He
            was right and the story of how the Heralds went from being the
            scribes of the Great Book of Arms to becoming the Society's name
            Nazis is something I'd like to write about some day when I'm no
            longer holding down a modern job. :)

            The job of the heralds ought to be to help people register decent
            historical names and devices. And the combining of cultures is a
            weirdness but doesn't detract from the SCA's ambience. After over 25
            years in the SCA, I don't even blink an eye at the improbable persona
            stories and the mishmash of cultures. It's part of what the SCA is.

            So, no, even if I could help, I won't. I've learned that the harder
            the heralds make it to pass a name, the less relevant what they do
            will be to the SCA. Someday they will figure it out as well. I
            won't stoop to their level. I'm here to have fun and help people
            learn -- aren't we all?

            -- Paul


            At 08:35 PM 7/18/2007, you wrote:
            >Nice section on Russianized Christian names. Now can
            >you address the usage rates of the *English* form of
            >names in Russia?
            >
            >If you do, maybe we can keep this ban from getting
            >past the proposal stage.
            >
            >- Istvan
          • L.M. Kies
            ... Randomly flipping through the 3rd Edition of Paul s dictionary of Russian names, I find that there are quite a few documented names that look rather
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 18, 2007
              >Nice section on Russianized Christian names. Now can
              >you address the usage rates of the *English* form of
              >names in Russia?
              >
              >If you do, maybe we can keep this ban from getting
              >past the proposal stage.

              Randomly flipping through the 3rd Edition of Paul's dictionary of Russian names, I find that there are quite a few documented names that look rather Western: Ioann, Peter, Wilem, Georgei (although not George), Helena, Ambros, Bob, Ed', David, General, Jacob, Johan, Karl. No Robert, Edward or Henry. Some of these look western by virtue of using letters that are not typically found in the Russian alphabet. Others are "false cognates" - like Ed and Bob.

              Unfortunately, by virtue of the fact that these names are in the _Russian_ dictionary, I expect they would not help the English + Russian cause, since the Heralds will probably just classify them as Russian.

              My name is Russian + Anglo-Norman French (i.e. "English"), first of all because I wanted to have a name my SCA friends would be able to say. Since my kingdom of Calontir is based on Anglo-Saxon culture, I thought I ought to pursue the "English" angle. My research indicated that it was entirely possible that a Russian woman could have gotten to England - as a slave purchased in Constantinople by a Crusader/pilgrim, or as a Hanseatic merchant's wife, etc. - and, as a woman, leave essentially no trace of her existance in the historical record for us to find.

              This strategy was further encouraged by my early reading of Corpora which indicated that the SCA is based on Western Europe, and that anyone else who plays ought to have a Western European connection. (I now know that this rule is not really a rule, but I didn't know that then.)

              I then researched English naming practices in my period and found that when foreigners settled in England, the "foreign" first names were often retained (relatively easy to handle since usually Christian names) but the foreign bynames were generally discarded, usually replaced by a locative name. Sofya the Russian sounded boring and rather modern, so I researched what the equivalent could have been in my period - and came up with Sofya la Rus. I even did research to verify that "Sofya" would be an appropriate way for an "Englishman" to try spell my name in period.

              But all that sort of logic doesn't fit very well on a name submission form, and I doubt it would have carried much weight with the Heralds even if I'd thought I should send it.

              In retrospect, I shouldn't have bothered with all that research and just submitted Sophia la Rus as a completely "English" name, keeping my little Russian secret to myself until the name passed. (Kind of defeats the purpose of the SCA, eh?)

              And now we feel like we have to dig up non-existent records of the names and marriages of commoners in obscure cultures or distant periods where we can hardly even find the names of Queens and Royal Princesses?!?

              'Tis a silly game. And I, like Paul, am going to wash my hands of it now, unless it is clear that real learning can be had.

              Sofya
              Who will never submit anything for registration again.

              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
              Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
              "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
              --------------------------------------------------------------------



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sfandra
              *urk* I don t think there s any problem with registering RUSSIAN names in the SCA. I know that all of the rather-high-level heralds in my area
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                *urk*
                <counter rant>
                I don't think there's any problem with registering
                RUSSIAN names in the SCA. I know that all of the
                rather-high-level heralds in my area all nodded and
                said "good man" when I gave my documentation as
                "Wickenden, Wickenden"....

                The problem is that people don't want Simple Persona
                Stories, with correspondingly Simple Names. They want
                to be the "half-elven bastard son of a Mongolian
                warlord who came to Russia, then down the river to
                Constantinople where they were adopted into an Arabic
                Sheik's family...." and they want some ridiculous
                cross-cultural name to go with the completely
                implausable persona story that was concieved during an
                all night WoW game and not through any historical
                study.

                My reaction to the "Heralds Are Evil" rant is to
                always counter with "People are Unwilling to Let Go
                Their Delusions" rant. For every one person loudly
                bent out of shape about how they can't register their
                Viking-Moorish name, there are at least 3 who get
                perfectly good plausably period names registered with
                no problem.

                I'm not going to go into the time it takes, because
                yes it takes a long time, and that's because we're
                volunteers, and the triple-blind process we use is
                time consuming. Not to mention that no-one wants to
                be a herald anymore because the prevailing public
                attitude that Heralds Are Evil.

                If folks were just willing to say, "I'm a Mongol,
                here's my Mongolian Name" or "I'm russian, here's my
                russian name" and accept that less than 1% of the
                population at the time was the jet-setter they so long
                to be, then it wouldn't be a big deal. What makes it
                seem so insane is that someone WANTS a cross-cultural
                name, and God Love Laurel, the CoA tries to ACCOMODATE
                this by asking all and sundry for assistance in
                documenting it! So instead of a big argument about
                "Oh, Laurel's being difficult" just because you're
                seeing a lot of discussion, think of it this way:
                You're seeing a lot of discussion, because Laurel is
                trying to find out If It's Really Possible before
                shooting down the submitter's delusions....

                </counter-rant>

                Note: I am not a herald. I don't play one on TV. I
                have dabbled extensively, and gone to a LOI meeting or
                two when local warranted heralds have begged in
                desperation for commenters. I have listened to
                heralds lament their stigmas, and I have heard
                disgruntled people complain about heralds. I really
                do think that the anti-CoA & Heralds attitude is
                misplaced and unfair. I'm willing to get into it over
                beers at Pennsic.... :D

                Cheers,
                Sfandra Dmitrieva



                --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                > *sigh*
                >
                > <rant>
                > Delurking for a brief moment to note how ridiculous
                > this all is. I
                > pity anyone trying to register a name these days,
                > but I have grown
                > too tired and old and bitter to fight the
                > power-hungry heralds. Once
                > upon a time, I fought the Good Fight to make it
                > easier to register a
                > Russian name in the SCA, but that apparently is a
                > battle that I have
                > lost in my retirement. Now they have apparently
                > raised the bar yet
                > higher....strike a victory for the Academy of St
                > Gabriel and their
                > long-standing battle to take over the SCA.
                > </rant>
                >
                > (Sorry, I needed to rant because listening to all of
                > this make my blood boil).
                >
                > On the usage rates of Christian names in Russia,
                > please see
                > Predslava's research on the subject which is
                > reproduced in the
                > grammar section of my Dictionary.
                >
                > -- Paul

                ******************
                Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                Haus Von Drakenklaue
                Kingdom of the East
                ******************
                Never 'pearl' your butt.


                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              • Tim Nalley
                I don t know about the overly complex story element or the WoW elements but my twist on the heralds is simply that if some Lord in Caid or An Tir or Oertha or
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                  I don't know about the overly complex story element
                  or the WoW elements but my twist on the heralds is
                  simply that if some Lord in Caid or An Tir or Oertha
                  or Lachoc has a device that is somewhat similar to
                  mine in design elements but in a different color
                  scheme then why would I be penalized? I'm sure that
                  happened in period so why, oh why, is it such a sin
                  now?
                  I applaud the heralds for thier painstacking
                  triple blind filters and totally understand the time
                  element necessitated by the process but the last time
                  they said I had a conflict I looked it up and compared
                  our devices which were obviously easily differentiated
                  by sight, so I kept it. I just figured if a device
                  dead on mine was going to be rejected anyway then I
                  was safe in using it! Paul did my name too.
                  'dok,
                  post-Ivan the Terrible era former criminal working as
                  legit merchant with purchased "family lineage",
                  period.


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                • Tim Nalley
                  Does significant contact include trading posts in the east? Like the Venetian and Genoese trading posts in teh Black Sea at Kaffa and Suklat? They were there
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                    Does significant contact include trading posts in the
                    east? Like the Venetian and Genoese trading posts in
                    teh Black Sea at Kaffa and Suklat? They were there for
                    a couple hundred years...
                    --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                    > No, and I have no interest in doing so. Your
                    > intention is good, but
                    > don't get carried away by their game.
                    >
                    > The Rules for Submission used to say that
                    > "significant contact"
                    > between the cultures was sufficient and that you
                    > didn't need to show
                    > that the bi-lingual names actually existed. The
                    > revisionism that you
                    > have to show examples of bi-lingual names never even
                    > came up until
                    > 1995 or so, and was soundly rejected as recently as
                    > 2000. But the
                    > College is a different animal these days it would
                    > seem....
                    >
                    > I am reminded of the letter I read in the heraldic
                    > files (from 1975
                    > or so) where a submitter accosted the College with
                    > the statement
                    > "What right does the College have to tell me what I
                    > call myself in
                    > the SCA ? Its sole mandate is to record the arms
                    > that I bear!" He
                    > was right and the story of how the Heralds went from
                    > being the
                    > scribes of the Great Book of Arms to becoming the
                    > Society's name
                    > Nazis is something I'd like to write about some day
                    > when I'm no
                    > longer holding down a modern job. :)
                    >
                    > The job of the heralds ought to be to help people
                    > register decent
                    > historical names and devices. And the combining of
                    > cultures is a
                    > weirdness but doesn't detract from the SCA's
                    > ambience. After over 25
                    > years in the SCA, I don't even blink an eye at the
                    > improbable persona
                    > stories and the mishmash of cultures. It's part of
                    > what the SCA is.
                    >
                    > So, no, even if I could help, I won't. I've learned
                    > that the harder
                    > the heralds make it to pass a name, the less
                    > relevant what they do
                    > will be to the SCA. Someday they will figure it out
                    > as well. I
                    > won't stoop to their level. I'm here to have fun
                    > and help people
                    > learn -- aren't we all?
                    >
                    > -- Paul
                    >
                    >
                    > At 08:35 PM 7/18/2007, you wrote:
                    > >Nice section on Russianized Christian names. Now
                    > can
                    > >you address the usage rates of the *English* form
                    > of
                    > >names in Russia?
                    > >
                    > >If you do, maybe we can keep this ban from getting
                    > >past the proposal stage.
                    > >
                    > >- Istvan
                    >
                    >
                    >



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                  • jjbober4@patmedia.net
                    I will start with the disclaimer - I AM a herald. Only at the local level, but I have been a herald since...umm...let s just say for a while . To that end, I
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                      I will start with the disclaimer - I AM a herald. Only at the local level, but I
                      have been a herald since...umm...let's just say "for a while".

                      To that end, I have to agree with Sfandra on this. The number of people I've sat
                      with who have come up with outrageous "justifications" for their a-historical
                      name is just mind boggling. Yes, there were exceptions to some things. Yes,
                      there were Mongols in Venice, but do you really think they would have married
                      anyone there?? (just an example). The college of arms is one of the few aspects
                      of the society that a) has rules, and b) enforces them stringently regardless of
                      rank, creed, color, religious affiliation, or anything else you can think of.
                      Everything else about the SCA has a far more "hang loose" attitude, which is
                      partially why "we" get the bad press.

                      Am I saying that the CoA is always right and without fault? Heck no! There are
                      plenty of things that it's done that I've shaken my head at, but I don't think it
                      is inherently evil. Case in point, I just helped someone get a document-able
                      Finnish name passed - I would have much preferred something easy and Slavic!! :)

                      Jan
                      (who has a very simple persona story)

                      On Thu Jul 19 9:32 , Sfandra sent:

                      *urk*

                      I don't think there's any problem with registering
                      RUSSIAN names in the SCA. I know that all of the
                      rather-high-level heralds in my area all nodded and
                      said "good man" when I gave my documentation as
                      "Wickenden, Wickenden"....

                      The problem is that people don't want Simple Persona
                      Stories, with correspondingly Simple Names. They want
                      to be the "half-elven bastard son of a Mongolian
                      warlord who came to Russia, then down the river to
                      Constantinople where they were adopted into an Arabic
                      Sheik's family...." and they want some ridiculous
                      cross-cultural name to go with the completely
                      implausable persona story that was concieved during an
                      all night WoW game and not through any historical
                      study.

                      My reaction to the "Heralds Are Evil" rant is to
                      always counter with "People are Unwilling to Let Go
                      Their Delusions" rant. For every one person loudly
                      bent out of shape about how they can't register their
                      Viking-Moorish name, there are at least 3 who get
                      perfectly good plausably period names registered with
                      no problem.

                      I'm not going to go into the time it takes, because
                      yes it takes a long time, and that's because we're
                      volunteers, and the triple-blind process we use is
                      time consuming. Not to mention that no-one wants to
                      be a herald anymore because the prevailing public
                      attitude that Heralds Are Evil.

                      If folks were just willing to say, "I'm a Mongol,
                      here's my Mongolian Name" or "I'm russian, here's my
                      russian name" and accept that less than 1% of the
                      population at the time was the jet-setter they so long
                      to be, then it wouldn't be a big deal. What makes it
                      seem so insane is that someone WANTS a cross-cultural
                      name, and God Love Laurel, the CoA tries to ACCOMODATE
                      this by asking all and sundry for assistance in
                      documenting it! So instead of a big argument about
                      "Oh, Laurel's being difficult" just because you're
                      seeing a lot of discussion, think of it this way:
                      You're seeing a lot of discussion, because Laurel is
                      trying to find out If It's Really Possible before
                      shooting down the submitter's delusions....



                      Note: I am not a herald. I don't play one on TV. I
                      have dabbled extensively, and gone to a LOI meeting or
                      two when local warranted heralds have begged in
                      desperation for commenters. I have listened to
                      heralds lament their stigmas, and I have heard
                      disgruntled people complain about heralds. I really
                      do think that the anti-CoA & Heralds attitude is
                      misplaced and unfair. I'm willing to get into it over
                      beers at Pennsic.... :D

                      Cheers,
                      Sfandra Dmitrieva

                      --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                      > *sigh*
                      >
                      >
                      > Delurking for a brief moment to note how ridiculous
                      > this all is. I
                      > pity anyone trying to register a name these days,
                      > but I have grown
                      > too tired and old and bitter to fight the
                      > power-hungry heralds. Once
                      > upon a time, I fought the Good Fight to make it
                      > easier to register a
                      > Russian name in the SCA, but that apparently is a
                      > battle that I have
                      > lost in my retirement. Now they have apparently
                      > raised the bar yet
                      > higher....strike a victory for the Academy of St
                      > Gabriel and their
                      > long-standing battle to take over the SCA.
                      >
                      >
                      > (Sorry, I needed to rant because listening to all of
                      > this make my blood boil).
                      >
                      > On the usage rates of Christian names in Russia,
                      > please see
                      > Predslava's research on the subject which is
                      > reproduced in the
                      > grammar section of my Dictionary.
                      >
                      > -- Paul

                      ******************
                      Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                      KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                      Haus Von Drakenklaue
                      Kingdom of the East
                      ******************
                      Never 'pearl' your butt.
                    • Lewis Tanzos
                      ... Sfandra, I *am* a herald. Indeed, I m very heavily involved in the submissions process at all levels. Thank you *VERY* much for your words. They indicate
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                        --- Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

                        > *urk*
                        > <counter rant>
                        > [ deleted ]
                        > </counter-rant>

                        Sfandra,

                        I *am* a herald. Indeed, I'm very heavily involved in
                        the submissions process at all levels.

                        Thank you *VERY* much for your words. They indicate
                        to me that somebody who's not a herald actually seems
                        to understand what goes on.

                        Would you mind if I re-posted your message to the SCA
                        herald's group? It would do some people a world of
                        good to know that there are people on our side.

                        - Istvan



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                      • jjbober4@patmedia.net
                        Pennsic...Lilies...Great Western.... May also just be yet another a-historical construct left over from the early days of the Society (see Masters-of-Arms,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                          Pennsic...Lilies...Great Western.... May also just be yet another a-historical
                          construct left over from the early days of the Society (see Masters-of-Arms,
                          Lords as the lowest rank, &c).

                          Case in point. A friend of mine was walking back from the field battle at
                          Pennsic some years ago. Short broad man...arms displayed on his surcoat in the
                          middle of his chest...pretty white belt and spiffy chain...and lo and behold he
                          sees a banner flapping in the breeze WITH HIS ARMS! Okay, not exactly, but the
                          same colors and pattern and not enough CVDs to pass the CoA. He smiles to
                          himself, and hails the camp.
                          This poor household is all standing there dumbfounded!! Said household was from
                          a kingdom far from his and had the paperwork in process, but had gone ahead
                          anyway and made banners and decorated things. The friend was merely yanking
                          their chain, but it was kind of fun. :)

                          That is why.

                          Jan


                          On Thu Jul 19 10:24 , Tim Nalley sent:

                          I don't know about the overly complex story element
                          or the WoW elements but my twist on the heralds is
                          simply that if some Lord in Caid or An Tir or Oertha
                          or Lachoc has a device that is somewhat similar to
                          mine in design elements but in a different color
                          scheme then why would I be penalized? I'm sure that
                          happened in period so why, oh why, is it such a sin
                          now?
                          I applaud the heralds for thier painstacking
                          triple blind filters and totally understand the time
                          element necessitated by the process but the last time
                          they said I had a conflict I looked it up and compared
                          our devices which were obviously easily differentiated
                          by sight, so I kept it. I just figured if a device
                          dead on mine was going to be rejected anyway then I
                          was safe in using it! Paul did my name too.
                          'dok,
                          post-Ivan the Terrible era former criminal working as
                          legit merchant with purchased "family lineage",
                          period.
                        • Tim Nalley
                          Good points! So, did they keep the device or go to another? I ve done that five times so far and not to whine more than I already am but I m done. Not being
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                            Good points! So, did they keep the device or go
                            to another? I've done that five times so far and not
                            to whine more than I already am but I'm done. Not
                            being snarky or difficult, simply grown apathetic to
                            the whole process. Each one was significantly
                            different from the others in colors and design
                            elements, yet all rejected. Too complex, too simple,
                            too many of those (critter), to many with that color
                            scheme (red-gold-black), cant do that with a bordure
                            (the English did and it was in Fax-Davies), never
                            mind....I must be tapped into the design zietgiest of
                            the SCA but I'm good with it.
                            I plan to use my current design until a gentle
                            with one on his or her chest walks into my camp too!
                            We can talk about our mutual good taste over some cold
                            drinks of one ariety or another!!!
                            Best Regards,
                            'dok
                            --- jjbober4@... wrote:

                            > Pennsic...Lilies...Great Western.... May also just
                            > be yet another a-historical
                            > construct left over from the early days of the
                            > Society (see Masters-of-Arms,
                            > Lords as the lowest rank, &c).
                            >
                            > Case in point. A friend of mine was walking back
                            > from the field battle at
                            > Pennsic some years ago. Short broad man...arms
                            > displayed on his surcoat in the
                            > middle of his chest...pretty white belt and spiffy
                            > chain...and lo and behold he
                            > sees a banner flapping in the breeze WITH HIS ARMS!
                            > Okay, not exactly, but the
                            > same colors and pattern and not enough CVDs to pass
                            > the CoA. He smiles to
                            > himself, and hails the camp.
                            > This poor household is all standing there
                            > dumbfounded!! Said household was from
                            > a kingdom far from his and had the paperwork in
                            > process, but had gone ahead
                            > anyway and made banners and decorated things. The
                            > friend was merely yanking
                            > their chain, but it was kind of fun. :)
                            >
                            > That is why.
                            >
                            > Jan
                            >
                            >
                            > On Thu Jul 19 10:24 , Tim Nalley sent:
                            >
                            > I don't know about the overly complex story
                            > element
                            > or the WoW elements but my twist on the heralds
                            > is
                            > simply that if some Lord in Caid or An Tir or
                            > Oertha
                            > or Lachoc has a device that is somewhat similar
                            > to
                            > mine in design elements but in a different color
                            > scheme then why would I be penalized? I'm sure
                            > that
                            > happened in period so why, oh why, is it such a
                            > sin
                            > now?
                            > I applaud the heralds for thier painstacking
                            > triple blind filters and totally understand the
                            > time
                            > element necessitated by the process but the last
                            > time
                            > they said I had a conflict I looked it up and
                            > compared
                            > our devices which were obviously easily
                            > differentiated
                            > by sight, so I kept it. I just figured if a
                            > device
                            > dead on mine was going to be rejected anyway
                            > then I
                            > was safe in using it! Paul did my name too.
                            > 'dok,
                            > post-Ivan the Terrible era former criminal
                            > working as
                            > legit merchant with purchased "family lineage",
                            > period.
                            >



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                          • Liudmila V
                            Why wouldn t you just get a permission to conflict? I had that problem, and resolved it that way. I have a sun in splendor where the gentle in question had a
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                              Why wouldn't you just get a permission to conflict? I had that problem, and resolved it that way. I have a sun in splendor where the gentle in question had a head of Medusa. He had easily signed the letter we needed. So far I haven't actually managed to use my device, but it is official.

                              Liudmila


                              In a message dated 07/19/07 11:56:29 Pacific Daylight Time, mordakus@... writes:
                              I plan to use my current design until a gentle
                              with one on his or her chest walks into my camp too!
                              We can talk about our mutual good taste over some cold
                              drinks of one ariety or another!!!
                              Best Regards,
                              'dokRecent Activity
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                            • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
                              Sometimes you just can get a hold of the person whose arms you conflict with...which is why our very small household s badge has never been passed cause we
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                                Sometimes you just can get a hold of the person whose arms you conflict
                                with...which is why our very small household's badge has never been passed
                                cause we can't get a hold of that person no matter what we have tried.

                                Ianuk

                                On 7/19/07, Liudmila V <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Why wouldn't you just get a permission to conflict? I had that problem,
                                > and resolved it that way. I have a sun in splendor where the gentle in
                                > question had a head of Medusa. He had easily signed the letter we needed. So
                                > far I haven't actually managed to use my device, but it is official.
                                >
                                > Liudmila
                                >
                                > In a message dated 07/19/07 11:56:29 Pacific Daylight Time,
                                > mordakus@... <mordakus%40yahoo.com> writes:
                                > I plan to use my current design until a gentle
                                > with one on his or her chest walks into my camp too!
                                > We can talk about our mutual good taste over some cold
                                > drinks of one ariety or another!!!
                                > Best Regards,
                                > 'dokRecent Activity
                                > 3New Members
                                > Visit Your Group
                                > SPONSORED LINKS
                                > Medieval tapestry
                                > Medieval costume
                                > Medieval and renaissance costume
                                > Yahoo! News
                                > Get it all here
                                > Breaking news to
                                > entertainment news
                                > Yahoo! Avatars
                                > Express Yourself
                                > Show your style in
                                > Messenger & more.
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                                > Love TV?
                                > Listings, picks
                                > news and gossip..
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Lente
                                RoFlol!lol!lol! Well now I got a name past in no time, even picked the spelling choices that were the closest in time and towns. So my name registration came
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                                  RoFlol!lol!lol!

                                  Well now I got a name past in no time, even picked the spelling choices
                                  that were the closest in time and towns. So my name registration came
                                  back in record time...now the device..well I guess I wasn't so nice with
                                  it; its taken 3 rounds and 4 years before I got one passed and the only
                                  reason I fought for one so much is in part is that my husband enters a
                                  Outlands Crown Tourney about once a year, and you need to have a name
                                  and device in the registration process if not passed to enter Crown
                                  Tourney in the Outlands (okay this is a simplified version of the
                                  Outlands law pertaining to Crown Tourney but I'm being rather lazy right
                                  now). Now After at least a year or two of it being passed I realized as
                                  a conquest Era Magyar that I totally screwed it up. Sigh back to
                                  thinking about it and planning submission number 4. The other reason is
                                  that I am plain stubborn and determined to get something I like and my
                                  gut feeling tells me would work as a clan mark for a Conquest Era
                                  Magyar, and fit also into the style of later period Hungarian device,
                                  yes I am occasionally insane.

                                  But I'm much better now. ;^)

                                  BTW no fancy shmancy persona story for me as to how a 800ad era Magyar
                                  hooked up with a 1300's era Mongol. I just consider myself a Conquest
                                  Era Magyar and don't even think about how to match them up. OMG my brain
                                  would lock up, closest I have come in idle thought is that *maybe just
                                  maybe I traveled with my father into the Eastern Roman Empire as scouts/
                                  diplomats/ merchants and we ended up going into Asia from there with a
                                  Mongol escort and somehow I end up marrying one.* But again this is more
                                  my idle speculation as to how I would end up with a Mongol husband and
                                  not how I would have one from the 1300's, heck I haven't even research
                                  the likely hood of something like my idle speculation having happened.
                                  After 9-10 years in the SCA I just tend to not even pay attention to
                                  persona stories anymore, especially the elaborate ones--mostly because
                                  very few people stay in persona or with their stories. I know I don't
                                  always stay in persona and culture, my modern ways tends to slip through
                                  while chasing after my kids.

                                  BTW my husband's idle thought on getting us together is that somehow we
                                  met when the Horde came into Eastern Europe and then when it went home
                                  to vote for a new leader either he stayed in Hungary and married me or I
                                  went back with them and married him. AND that is our idle thoughts on
                                  how we hooked up.

                                  Of course I have never played RPG games or such so maybe that's the tie
                                  in on elaborate stories. I just love Halloween and dressing up year
                                  round, yeah that's my excuse.

                                  Really I Am Better Now. ;^)

                                  Kathws

                                  Sfandra wrote:
                                  > *urk*
                                  > <counter rant>
                                  > I don't think there's any problem with registering
                                  > RUSSIAN names in the SCA. I know that all of the
                                  > rather-high-level heralds in my area all nodded and
                                  > said "good man" when I gave my documentation as
                                  > "Wickenden, Wickenden"....
                                  >
                                  > The problem is that people don't want Simple Persona
                                  > Stories, with correspondingly Simple Names. They want
                                  > to be the "half-elven bastard son of a Mongolian
                                  > warlord who came to Russia, then down the river to
                                  > Constantinople where they were adopted into an Arabic
                                  > Sheik's family...." and they want some ridiculous
                                  > cross-cultural name to go with the completely
                                  > implausable persona story that was concieved during an
                                  > all night WoW game and not through any historical
                                  > study.
                                  >
                                  > My reaction to the "Heralds Are Evil" rant is to
                                  > always counter with "People are Unwilling to Let Go
                                  > Their Delusions" rant. For every one person loudly
                                  > bent out of shape about how they can't register their
                                  > Viking-Moorish name, there are at least 3 who get
                                  > perfectly good plausably period names registered with
                                  > no problem.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not going to go into the time it takes, because
                                  > yes it takes a long time, and that's because we're
                                  > volunteers, and the triple-blind process we use is
                                  > time consuming. Not to mention that no-one wants to
                                  > be a herald anymore because the prevailing public
                                  > attitude that Heralds Are Evil.
                                  >
                                  > If folks were just willing to say, "I'm a Mongol,
                                  > here's my Mongolian Name" or "I'm russian, here's my
                                  > russian name" and accept that less than 1% of the
                                  > population at the time was the jet-setter they so long
                                  > to be, then it wouldn't be a big deal. What makes it
                                  > seem so insane is that someone WANTS a cross-cultural
                                  > name, and God Love Laurel, the CoA tries to ACCOMODATE
                                  > this by asking all and sundry for assistance in
                                  > documenting it! So instead of a big argument about
                                  > "Oh, Laurel's being difficult" just because you're
                                  > seeing a lot of discussion, think of it this way:
                                  > You're seeing a lot of discussion, because Laurel is
                                  > trying to find out If It's Really Possible before
                                  > shooting down the submitter's delusions....
                                  >
                                  > </counter-rant>
                                  >
                                  > Note: I am not a herald. I don't play one on TV. I
                                  > have dabbled extensively, and gone to a LOI meeting or
                                  > two when local warranted heralds have begged in
                                  > desperation for commenters. I have listened to
                                  > heralds lament their stigmas, and I have heard
                                  > disgruntled people complain about heralds. I really
                                  > do think that the anti-CoA & Heralds attitude is
                                  > misplaced and unfair. I'm willing to get into it over
                                  > beers at Pennsic.... :D
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Sfandra Dmitrieva
                                • Lente
                                  The person just might not be playing right now. Or moved and then dropped out of playing due to Too Much Life happening. Perhaps someday they will resurface
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jul 19, 2007
                                    The person just might not be playing right now. Or moved and then
                                    dropped out of playing due to Too Much Life happening. Perhaps someday
                                    they will resurface and you can get the right to conflict signed.

                                    Kathws

                                    Jennifer Nelson Kemp wrote:
                                    > Sometimes you just can get a hold of the person whose arms you conflict
                                    > with...which is why our very small household's badge has never been passed
                                    > cause we can't get a hold of that person no matter what we have tried.
                                    >
                                    > Ianuk
                                    >
                                    > On 7/19/07, Liudmila V <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                                    >> Why wouldn't you just get a permission to conflict? I had that problem,
                                    >> and resolved it that way. I have a sun in splendor where the gentle in
                                    >> question had a head of Medusa. He had easily signed the letter we needed. So
                                    >> far I haven't actually managed to use my device, but it is official.
                                    >>
                                    >> Liudmila
                                  • Tim Nalley
                                    Because I m an idiot and ignorant of a simple fix, thats why! Its always operator error....Thanks!!!! dok ...
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jul 20, 2007
                                      Because I'm an idiot and ignorant of a simple fix,
                                      thats why! Its always operator error....Thanks!!!!
                                      'dok
                                      --- Liudmila V <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                      > Why wouldn't you just get a permission to conflict?
                                      > I had that problem, and resolved it that way. I have
                                      > a sun in splendor where the gentle in question had a
                                      > head of Medusa. He had easily signed the letter we
                                      > needed. So far I haven't actually managed to use my
                                      > device, but it is official.
                                      >
                                      > Liudmila
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > In a message dated 07/19/07 11:56:29 Pacific
                                      > Daylight Time, mordakus@... writes:
                                      > I plan to use my current design until a gentle
                                      > with one on his or her chest walks into my camp too!
                                      > We can talk about our mutual good taste over some
                                      > cold
                                      > drinks of one ariety or another!!!
                                      > Best Regards,
                                      > 'dokRecent Activity
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                                      > removed]
                                      >
                                      >




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                                    • Robert Lewis
                                      And then you get cases like the College I belong to had, we tried for at least a year and a half to get a letter to conflict our populace badge with an
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jul 20, 2007
                                        And then you get cases like the College I belong to had, we tried for at
                                        least a year and a half to get a letter to conflict our populace badge
                                        with an existing persons device (all canines are considered to be the
                                        same, even if one is a wolf and the other has 3 heads). Early in the
                                        spring of '06 we finally got a hold of this gentle, and he had no
                                        problem, especially since we were in Atenveldt and he was somewhere on
                                        the east coast, so what would be the chance of us being at the same
                                        events? (Well plus he also thought it was ridiculous, didn't think the
                                        actual heraldry looked anything alike.)

                                        Well guess who was camped 2 tents away from my wife (the herald who did
                                        the leg work getting the letter) and I at Pennsic last year? (OK it was
                                        more than 2 tents, the back of his tent was up against the side of our
                                        camps common shade tent.)

                                        Ivan

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: sig@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sig@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                        Lente
                                        Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 11:05 PM
                                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: Gag! (was Re: [sig] English/Russian interaction)

                                        The person just might not be playing right now. Or moved and then
                                        dropped out of playing due to Too Much Life happening. Perhaps someday
                                        they will resurface and you can get the right to conflict signed.

                                        Kathws

                                        Jennifer Nelson Kemp wrote:
                                        > Sometimes you just can get a hold of the person whose arms you
                                        conflict
                                        > with...which is why our very small household's badge has never been
                                        passed
                                        > cause we can't get a hold of that person no matter what we have tried.
                                        >
                                        > Ianuk
                                      • Rod Giffin
                                        Addressing the original quesiton: of Russian/English persona combinations, I ve been sitting on this for a few days. I m not sure if it ll ruffle feathers.
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jul 22, 2007
                                          Addressing the original quesiton: of Russian/English persona
                                          combinations, I've been sitting on this for a few days. I'm not sure if
                                          it'll ruffle feathers. It's not meant to, it's just information. So is
                                          the next message under a different topic. Why do I think I'm going to
                                          regret sending this?

                                          So, it's a little difficult to document direct contact of a substantial
                                          nature, if you are looking from the perspective of England. Other than
                                          the odd Anglo-Saxon recorded in various chronicles as visiting Kiev
                                          including Edward the Exile below, most of the very early contact between
                                          the Rus and England would have been through intermediaries in
                                          Scandinavia, The Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire. We also
                                          have some Chronicle evidence of Rus being in various embassies,
                                          including a few members of the Varangian Guard in England as part of an
                                          embassy from Byzantium.

                                          There is Agatha of Hungary, the wife of Edward the Exile, who evidence
                                          is mounting was actually a daughter of Yaroslav the Wise. If that
                                          interpretation is correct, her Children would be notable examples of
                                          English/Rus mix included Queen Margaret of Scotland. This information
                                          is actually reflected in the archives of the Royal Family of England.

                                          Other than this, I have to check some sources that I've forgotten the
                                          location of, but I seem to recall there is evidence of a period cluster
                                          of Slavic names in England around the region of York in the 10th, 11th
                                          and 12th C. The problem is, the names are not in Slavic form, and are
                                          written in a Latin style instead, so they may actually be cognates,
                                          misspellings etc.. But it is also possible, even to the point of
                                          likely, that they are examples of what happened when Slavs in the employ
                                          of the King of Denmark went to England as part of the Danish occupation.
                                          (See the Saga of Olaf Trygvason)

                                          NOTE: Someone commenting in this thread mentioned something about not
                                          having an explanation for a Rus/English Lady mixing with Earles. I just
                                          want to point out, due to the social politics of Russia, it is unlikely
                                          that pesants and serfs would ever have traveled to England in period.
                                          Because of this social situation though, contact at all, in any period
                                          we are concerned with, in England itself was probably restricted to
                                          Boyar family members, major merchant families, mercenaries, or royalty.
                                          So basically all you're going to find is Nobles of one sort or other mixing.

                                          However, if you are looking from the perspective of Russia, things have
                                          a much different optic. For the moment I'm going to ignore the obvious
                                          11th C Gytha/Vladimir marriage because it was actually through her uncle
                                          the King of Sweden - Gytha's father though, was Herald Godwinson.

                                          (Now, for the rest of this, I'm going out on a substantial limb in terms
                                          of what is accepted by SCA Historians***. )

                                          Nonetheless - You can actually document English (Anglo-Saxon) presence
                                          in the area of the Sea of Aziz (essentially a large bay on the northern
                                          edge of the Black Sea) in several period Chronicles, (including those of
                                          Orderic Vitalis*, the Saga of Edward the Confessor, and several
                                          Byzantine sources, as well as contemporary French reports of
                                          Anglo-Saxons around the Eastern Med.). This is stronger evidence than
                                          we have for certain other events in history that are widely accepted.
                                          The evidence is that these emmigrants left England after the battle of
                                          Hastings, and ended up in the Varangian Guard. The number was not
                                          small. One fleet of emigrants alone, is said to have consisted of
                                          between **250 and 350 ships - 10,000 - 15,000 people and this was not
                                          the only incident of emigration. The Chronicles above make reference to
                                          this: 4300 of these Anglo-Saxon/Varangians were given a charter from
                                          Emperor Alexios to reestablish lands previously lost to the empire.

                                          In contemporary maps, the area immediately to the East of the Byzantine
                                          enclave of Anglo-Saxons was a Kievan Rus enclave. The entire region was
                                          just to the East of the borders of Keivan Rus,and inside the territory
                                          otherwise claimed by the Kipchak - interestingly enough, the Golden
                                          Horde Kipchak.

                                          This gives rise to the possibility of stuff the SCA College of Heralds
                                          is going to hate. That's the possibility of Kipchak/Anglo-Saxon, as
                                          well as Kievan Rus/Anglo-Saxon and Byzantine Anglo-Saxon persona's.
                                          Nevertheless, it does show some possibility of substantial contact
                                          between 12th C Kievan Rus and people of Anglo-Saxon descent. These
                                          emigrants occupied largely the same space and time as some of the people
                                          of Kievan Rus, and they had a common vocation - they were connected with
                                          the Varangian Guard, and common ties with Scandinavia.

                                          The following map is part of the Britannica Online site:
                                          http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-3390 Note the purple bit, beside the
                                          pink bits, around the Sea of Aziz. That's the suspected location of the
                                          enclave.

                                          Orderic...

                                          *I doesn't actually LIKE the works of Orderic Vitalis. I think he was
                                          enamored to the point of fault with William the Conqueror in
                                          particular. But in this case, we have several contemporary chronicles
                                          originating in both Western and Eastern Europe, corroborating the same
                                          story.

                                          ** The number of ships varies between sources. I was just thinking. In
                                          terms of the 11th C Northern Europe, this is a fairly major migration.
                                          In terms of todays population of England, this one event would be the
                                          equivalent of a million people leaving England tomorrow.

                                          *** If you are a student of Eastern Christianity, you will be familiar
                                          with this story. It is often part of the study of the Battle of
                                          Hastings from a religious perspective - Orthodoxy vs Rome. Not that
                                          England was Orthodox, although some have tried to show that. The story
                                          itself refutes an Orthodox England, in that the Anglo-Saxons involved
                                          turned to Hungary for priests because they wanted Latin Rite religion
                                          instead of the "Rite of St. Paul". Western Historians haven't exactly
                                          spent a lot of time on this subject, since the culture was short lived -
                                          probably victims of early Mongolian expansion, or earlier aggression on
                                          the part of the Kipchak.


                                          Tamara Duran wrote:
                                          > Hi all
                                          >
                                          > Ursula has just brought to my attention the fact that Laurel is ALSO
                                          > requesting more information/commentary about ENGLISH-Russian
                                          > combinations:
                                          >
                                          > ----------------------
                                          > Currently names combining English and Russian are registerable
                                          > although a step from period practice. The original ruling on such
                                          > combinations, made in March 1993, states:
                                          >
                                          > The submitter documents period interaction between England and Russia:
                                          > Ivan the Terrible took some pains to cultivate a friendly relationship
                                          > with England. He chartered the London-based Muscovy Company in 1555 to
                                          > set up trading depots throughout Muscovy (Basil Dmytryshyn, Medieval
                                          > Russia: A Source Book, 900-1700), and himself sought to marry one of
                                          > Queen Elizabeth's ladies (1911 E.Brit. , vol.xv, p.90). Henceforth, we
                                          > will register English-Russian names from that period.
                                          >
                                          > By precedent, then, English/Russian combinations are registerable if
                                          > the elements can be dated to the 16th C. However, it is unclear
                                          > whether contact between England and Russia was substantial enough for
                                          > enough time to allow the migration of names from one naming pool into
                                          > the other before the end of our period. Contact between England and
                                          > Russia is only documented from the second half of the 16th C with the
                                          > penetration of Richard Chancellor to Moscow in 1553. The Muscovy
                                          > company was chartered in 1555, and started sending yearly fleets to
                                          > Russia shortly afterwards. English merchant communities were
                                          > established after that, and other Englishmen (such as physicians,
                                          > assayers, and others skilled in metalwork) were much desired and
                                          > requested by the Tsar. (information from Edward P. Cheyney, A History
                                          > of England From the Defeat of the Armada to the Death of Elizabeth).
                                          > While this suggests an active and lively mixture, it is unclear
                                          > whether this can be considered substantial enough to allow language
                                          > combinations. For a contemporary account of contact between England
                                          > and Russia, see the various works on Elizabethan exploration written
                                          > by Richard Hakluyt at
                                          > http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/author?name=Hakluyt%2C+Richard%2C+1552%3F-1616.
                                          > We invite discussion of this matter.
                                          > ------------------------
                                          >
                                        • quokkaqueen
                                          I ve been trying to keep quiet and not add to the already very exciting conversations that are happening about the SCA and heraldry in general. But, I think
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jul 23, 2007
                                            I've been trying to keep quiet and not add to the already very
                                            exciting conversations that are happening about the SCA and heraldry
                                            in general. But, I think the influence of the college may have been
                                            slightly overstated.

                                            The point that seems to be very quickly forgotton when it comes to
                                            names and heraldry, is that nobody is going to force you to register
                                            it with the college. You can have as many baby pink prancing unicorns
                                            on your banners as you want, and nobody can really do anything about it.*

                                            If you want an amazingly well-documented name with period and
                                            place-appropiate armory, then talk to St. Gabriel. You can sit with
                                            your favourite fantasy book and pull some names out of that too. Both
                                            ways of going about a name and both you are equally entitled to use as
                                            a name for a persona. All that is required in this game is an attempt,
                                            and everyones' attempt is going to be different. This doesn't mean
                                            that peer pressure and learning more about medieval life as you
                                            continue to play in the SCA won't shift your measure of 'attempt'
                                            higher or lower. That is one of the fantastic things about the SCA, is
                                            that you can start at your own level and move at your own pace in all
                                            aspects that the society entails.

                                            What does this all mean in relation to having Russian/English,
                                            Russian/Mongol or generally non-western european names? If you are the
                                            sort of person who wants to play the herald game, then worry all you
                                            want about the logistics of having such name combinations. If you
                                            don't want to have to deal with all the paperwork and hassle, then
                                            simply don't pay attention to it and call yourself whatever you like.

                                            All the CoH does is check to see if your name and device is plausably
                                            period (I'm not touching the issues Paul has raised about that) and
                                            then keep it on file so it is protected against anyone else wanting
                                            something too similar. If you don't have these things registered, then
                                            you don't have to jump through those hoops but you also won't have the
                                            'protections' of having someone in Lochac worrying about someones'
                                            name in An Tir. Very simple really.**

                                            Before anyone gets upset, I'm not suggesting that anyone who doesn't
                                            play in a particular way should take their bat and ball and go home.
                                            I'm trying to say that there are many ways to play the SCA game and
                                            that sometimes people lose sight of that fact.

                                            ~Asfridhr


                                            *OK, they could come into your encampment and whinge. And you could
                                            tell them to calm down and worry about something more important in
                                            life than how you have your own fun in the SCA.

                                            **Why they are so obsessive about everyone having different names and
                                            devices stems from the assumption that the SCA is primarily western
                                            European and so since the 13/14th centuries Heralds were worried about
                                            devices not being identical, the SCA heralds are too. The reason why
                                            we have an entire-SCA-heraldry database instead of just kingdom
                                            specific is because of large, international events such as Pennsic and
                                            because people are much more likely to travel between kingdoms than
                                            they were in the 13th century.
                                            For more about the historic reasons for heralds being obsessive about
                                            different devices, see:
                                            http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/heralds_history.html
                                            And a medieval example of devices being taken to court to see who
                                            should 'own' it, there is the Scrope vs. Grosvenor case.

                                            Wow, that's a lot of text. Sorry if I've put anyone to sleep.

                                            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
                                            > I plan to use my current design until a gentle
                                            > with one on his or her chest walks into my camp too!
                                            > We can talk about our mutual good taste over some cold
                                            > drinks of one ariety or another!!!
                                            > Best Regards,
                                            > 'dok
                                          • abestripe
                                            ... Small point of order here. If you plan to fight in a baronial coronet tourney, like we have here in Western Seas, or a crown tourney, you must have a name
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jul 24, 2007
                                              > The point that seems to be very quickly forgotton when it comes to
                                              > names and heraldry, is that nobody is going to force you to register
                                              > it with the college.

                                              Small point of order here. If you plan to fight in a baronial coronet
                                              tourney, like we have here in Western Seas, or a crown tourney, you
                                              must have a name and device at least 'in submission'. Now this
                                              doesn't mean you can't submit your baby pink prancing unicorns, but it
                                              is unlikely that it will be accepted. And as long as it it under
                                              submission, you probably have 6-8 months to play before it gets
                                              rejected. And even this doesn't mean you can't use them, only that
                                              they have not been accepted as 'heraldicly correct' or maybe that they
                                              conflict with someone else's baby pink prancing stags. If you plan to
                                              hold, and you should plan to hold if you plan to fight for, a position
                                              of recognition, than you are probably playing at a different level
                                              than the pink unicorns anyway.

                                              AberHardt
                                            • Sfandra
                                              ... I think that this rule does not apply in all kingdoms; I m almost positive that it does not apply in the East Kingdom. One should kingdom law first.
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jul 25, 2007
                                                --- abestripe <abestripe@...> wrote:

                                                > > The point that seems to be very quickly forgotton
                                                > when it comes to
                                                > > names and heraldry, is that nobody is going to
                                                > force you to register
                                                > > it with the college.
                                                >
                                                > Small point of order here. If you plan to fight in
                                                > a baronial coronet
                                                > tourney, like we have here in Western Seas, or a
                                                > crown tourney, you
                                                > must have a name and device at least 'in
                                                > submission'.

                                                I think that this rule does not apply in all kingdoms;
                                                I'm almost positive that it does not apply in the East
                                                Kingdom. One should kingdom law first.

                                                --Sfandra
                                                --citizen of the People's Republic of the East... ;p




                                                ******************
                                                Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                                                KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                                                Haus Von Drakenklaue
                                                Kingdom of the East
                                                ******************
                                                Never 'pearl' your butt.



                                                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                                                http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
                                              • Tim Nalley
                                                Our major rules to be acceptable for Crown list, outside copora is to be financially able to support a riegn and of course, be acceptable to the Crown! The
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jul 25, 2007
                                                  Our major rules to be acceptable for Crown list,
                                                  outside copora is to be financially able to support a
                                                  riegn and of course, be acceptable to the Crown! The
                                                  Kingdom pays some for gas but very little else. Many
                                                  groups offer non-obligatory contributions to the Royal
                                                  Travel Fund and a lot of folks have silver hats from
                                                  independent fundraising here.
                                                  'dok



                                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                  Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                                                  http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
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