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RE: [sig] rus fitted dress

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  • L.M. Kies
    Margarita, poklon ot Sofya! ... Congratulations! ... Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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      Margarita, poklon ot Sofya!

      >
      >I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks.

      Congratulations!

      >I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O ... c. 1385, Prague. ...wearing a dress that very
      >clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.... Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other
      >types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

      Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It has a waist seam and a slightly gathered short skirt. So that would be *something* suggesting a different type of fitting in 12-13th cent. Rus women's dress.

      But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful, figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost cause.
      I just gave mine to my sister. :-P

      Sofya

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      --------------------------------------------------------------------




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sfandra
      ... LOL! That s so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one cotehardie to my sister too! --Sfandra ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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        >
        > But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful,
        > figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost
        > cause.
        > I just gave mine to my sister. :-P
        >
        > Sofya
        >

        LOL! That's so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one
        cotehardie to my sister too!

        --Sfandra

        ******************
        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
        KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
        Haus Von Drakenklaue
        Kingdom of the East
        ******************
        Never 'pearl' your butt.



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      • Marilee Humason
        I am afraid you aren t going to find anything because the idea was a static figure,no shape. Everyone looked the same and women were evil according to the
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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          I am afraid you aren't going to find anything because
          the idea was a "static" figure,no shape. Everyone
          looked the same and women were "evil" according to the
          religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
          any way. That is also why they were secluded in the
          later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
          other than their husband and immediate family, they
          were not to be trusted! Gotta love religions mostly
          created by men!
          Anastasia
          --- Shannon Anderson <kitonlove@...> wrote:

          > I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a
          > yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some
          > dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure)
          > before heading "home" to Pennsic.
          >
          > I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated
          > O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The
          > Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von
          > Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a
          > dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and
          > is fitted.
          >
          > This the closest I've found to anything even
          > remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my
          > persona date within the Slavic world. It probably
          > doesn't even count because the story is German, I
          > think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any
          > other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's
          > dress?
          >
          > This might be a lost cause. All vague references to
          > waist created with anything other than a belt seem
          > to be Western influence, later period.
          >
          > Margarita
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
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          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >


          Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
        • L.M. Kies
          ... I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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            > women were "evil" according to the
            >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
            >any way.

            I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens were allowed to show their hair and women wore all sorts of pretty, tempting things.

            And while Russian garments are often described as "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?

            When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter the Great may have trouble evaluating "old fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits without imposing their own biases and expectations.

            >That is also why they were secluded in the
            >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
            >other than their husband and immediate family

            Actually, only the very upper levels of late period Russian society practiced the seclusion of the terem. They were the only ones with houses big enough to shut away the women. Although the women weren't really shut away. They had an important role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and networking with the women of other noble families. Politics was all about family connections, and it was the women who made the marriages that created those family connections. And if you read the Domostroi carefully, you will see that the "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to supervise her servants and staff - including men, and there are other examples of the role of women in the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact to some extent with men outside their "immediate family".

            So the seclusion of women could hardly be a religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't follow it perfectly.

            Just some thoughts,

            Sofya

            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            --------------------------------------------------------------------





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Marilee Humason
            Well, this is based on the books I have read about the religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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              Well, this is based on the books I have read about the
              religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th
              century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be confused
              with peasants or people in out laying areas where they
              are much less strict.
              Also the dresses are shapeless because I was 8 months
              pregnant and wearing the same dress I always wore and
              some people didn't know I was pregnant!
              I agree with the assessment from the Domostroi but if
              you read Olearius he talks about the great privaledge
              it was to actually meet the Boyars wife as they were
              not allowed out.
              And yes I do mean upper class, but then we in the
              Society are supposed to be creating noblemen. What we
              can actually create is not going to be purely period,
              it is going to be an SCA version of Period.
              Anastasia
              --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

              > > women were "evil" according to the
              > >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
              > >any way.
              >
              > I was always under the impression that such severe
              > attitudes about women were confined to the rantings
              > of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
              > of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens
              > were allowed to show their hair and women wore all
              > sorts of pretty, tempting things.
              >
              > And while Russian garments are often described as
              > "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move
              > in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan
              > bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?
              >
              > When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is
              > rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not
              > surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated
              > into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring
              > techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter
              > the Great may have trouble evaluating "old
              > fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits
              > without imposing their own biases and expectations.
              >
              >
              > >That is also why they were secluded in the
              > >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
              > >other than their husband and immediate family
              >
              > Actually, only the very upper levels of late period
              > Russian society practiced the seclusion of the
              > terem. They were the only ones with houses big
              > enough to shut away the women. Although the women
              > weren't really shut away. They had an important
              > role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and
              > networking with the women of other noble families.
              > Politics was all about family connections, and it
              > was the women who made the marriages that created
              > those family connections. And if you read the
              > Domostroi carefully, you will see that the
              > "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to
              > supervise her servants and staff - including men,
              > and there are other examples of the role of women in
              > the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact
              > to some extent with men outside their "immediate
              > family".
              >
              > So the seclusion of women could hardly be a
              > religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of
              > society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't
              > follow it perfectly.
              >
              > Just some thoughts,
              >
              > Sofya
              >
              >
              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
              > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
              > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
              >
              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >


              Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
            • Shannon Anderson
              I like the Russian silhouette, it s comfortable and natural enough. Why I m looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                I like the Russian silhouette, it's comfortable and natural enough. Why I'm looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the bolt I wanted for something skimpier and b) there's this European dress I've wanted to make for a long time and I was hoping to find it's Russian "cousin."

                I may just make the jacket we've been discussing with my remaining fabric, to go over a more typical dress.

                Thanks for the help,

                Margarita


                ---------------------------------
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              • DOUGLAS PETROFF
                And please don t forget this all came about after the Mongolian period. The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 14, 2007
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                  And please don't forget this all came about after the Mongolian period.
                  The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
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