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Re: [sig] gers was Re: Pavillion question

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  • Rod Giffin
    ... The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time, or even
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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      L.M. Kies wrote:
      > Anyway, the point is that period Russians may not have found the yurt suitable for their climate. Or maybe they did.
      > Maybe they hated the Mongols enough that they refused to use yurts. Or maybe they adopted them like they did spices, silks and light cavalry.
      >
      >
      The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians
      KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time,
      or even often. It was a common structure among many other people that
      early Russians encountered, not only Mongols, to the South and East at
      least. It was certainly known to them long before the Mongole
      invasion. The only art examples I've ever seen though are a couple of
      representations of the Byzantine Varangian Guard, from the 12th Century
      which showed a yurt like structure in the painting (miniatures from
      Ioannes Skylitzes, who's art is not an example of the craft at it's
      finest. He was primarily a writer).

      This is the thing though. It's unlikely from a practical point of view
      that a Mongolian style yurt would have been popular at all in the Kiev,
      Novgorod, Tver, Moscow or other north Western regions at any rate, not
      just from a weather point of view. We're talking a region of true
      boreal forest here, very nearly a rain forest of mixed underbrush and
      conifers that existed all the way to the Urals. (And largely still
      does.) It would make yurt moving rather difficult, and a felt yurt
      would quickly wick water. They were built for dry climates without a
      lot of forestation, where nomadic herders lived. And why would you want
      to drag your house along with you, with all that wood around? Just
      leave it and make another further down the road.

      > You may make up your own mind on the issue. I'm still on the fence... a lattice fence, arranged in a circle about 12 feet in diameter, with red rafters and a beautiful red door... on a wagon... ;-)
      Ok, so the cool factor of that picture just about does it for me. I'm
      almost POSITIVE that I saw at least one period painting that depicted a
      yurt (period although fairly late period). Tents in general are
      somewhat rare in period art though, and I wasn't looking for tents and
      yurts. It's just that I have this almost positive feeling that I did
      see one in at least one period painting.

      And there's one other factor to consider. That is the C part of the
      SCA. The C part is where we get to experiment and have some fun with
      the history. So a early Rus merchant goes wondering...South East along
      the Silk Road, encounters some Turkic peoples and lives with them for a
      while, picks up some ideas like yurts. That kind of stuff actually
      happened all the time, especially to people with Viking origins, so it's
      not all that far fetched.

      Orderic.
    • Lente
      okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the world s tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from the inner mongolia
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 12, 2007
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        okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the
        world's tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from
        the inner mongolia region. Anyway go check out the slideshow link on the
        left and in some of the pictures you will see for part of the ceremony
        they used a small yurt on a wagon. very neat looking.

        > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070712/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_china_tallest

        Kathws
      • Shannon Anderson
        I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60 wide silks. Now, I m trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I m sure) before
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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          I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure) before heading "home" to Pennsic.

          I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.

          This the closest I've found to anything even remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my persona date within the Slavic world. It probably doesn't even count because the story is German, I think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

          This might be a lost cause. All vague references to waist created with anything other than a belt seem to be Western influence, later period.

          Margarita


          ---------------------------------
          Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • L.M. Kies
          Margarita, poklon ot Sofya! ... Congratulations! ... Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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            Margarita, poklon ot Sofya!

            >
            >I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks.

            Congratulations!

            >I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O ... c. 1385, Prague. ...wearing a dress that very
            >clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.... Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other
            >types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

            Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It has a waist seam and a slightly gathered short skirt. So that would be *something* suggesting a different type of fitting in 12-13th cent. Rus women's dress.

            But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful, figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost cause.
            I just gave mine to my sister. :-P

            Sofya

            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            --------------------------------------------------------------------




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sfandra
            ... LOL! That s so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one cotehardie to my sister too! --Sfandra ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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              >
              > But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful,
              > figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost
              > cause.
              > I just gave mine to my sister. :-P
              >
              > Sofya
              >

              LOL! That's so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one
              cotehardie to my sister too!

              --Sfandra

              ******************
              Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
              KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
              Haus Von Drakenklaue
              Kingdom of the East
              ******************
              Never 'pearl' your butt.



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            • Marilee Humason
              I am afraid you aren t going to find anything because the idea was a static figure,no shape. Everyone looked the same and women were evil according to the
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                I am afraid you aren't going to find anything because
                the idea was a "static" figure,no shape. Everyone
                looked the same and women were "evil" according to the
                religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                any way. That is also why they were secluded in the
                later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                other than their husband and immediate family, they
                were not to be trusted! Gotta love religions mostly
                created by men!
                Anastasia
                --- Shannon Anderson <kitonlove@...> wrote:

                > I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a
                > yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some
                > dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure)
                > before heading "home" to Pennsic.
                >
                > I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated
                > O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The
                > Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von
                > Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a
                > dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and
                > is fitted.
                >
                > This the closest I've found to anything even
                > remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my
                > persona date within the Slavic world. It probably
                > doesn't even count because the story is German, I
                > think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any
                > other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's
                > dress?
                >
                > This might be a lost cause. All vague references to
                > waist created with anything other than a belt seem
                > to be Western influence, later period.
                >
                > Margarita
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet
                > in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >


                Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
              • L.M. Kies
                ... I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                  > women were "evil" according to the
                  >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                  >any way.

                  I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens were allowed to show their hair and women wore all sorts of pretty, tempting things.

                  And while Russian garments are often described as "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?

                  When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter the Great may have trouble evaluating "old fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits without imposing their own biases and expectations.

                  >That is also why they were secluded in the
                  >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                  >other than their husband and immediate family

                  Actually, only the very upper levels of late period Russian society practiced the seclusion of the terem. They were the only ones with houses big enough to shut away the women. Although the women weren't really shut away. They had an important role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and networking with the women of other noble families. Politics was all about family connections, and it was the women who made the marriages that created those family connections. And if you read the Domostroi carefully, you will see that the "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to supervise her servants and staff - including men, and there are other examples of the role of women in the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact to some extent with men outside their "immediate family".

                  So the seclusion of women could hardly be a religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't follow it perfectly.

                  Just some thoughts,

                  Sofya

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                  Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                  http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                  "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Marilee Humason
                  Well, this is based on the books I have read about the religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                    Well, this is based on the books I have read about the
                    religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th
                    century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be confused
                    with peasants or people in out laying areas where they
                    are much less strict.
                    Also the dresses are shapeless because I was 8 months
                    pregnant and wearing the same dress I always wore and
                    some people didn't know I was pregnant!
                    I agree with the assessment from the Domostroi but if
                    you read Olearius he talks about the great privaledge
                    it was to actually meet the Boyars wife as they were
                    not allowed out.
                    And yes I do mean upper class, but then we in the
                    Society are supposed to be creating noblemen. What we
                    can actually create is not going to be purely period,
                    it is going to be an SCA version of Period.
                    Anastasia
                    --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

                    > > women were "evil" according to the
                    > >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                    > >any way.
                    >
                    > I was always under the impression that such severe
                    > attitudes about women were confined to the rantings
                    > of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                    > of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens
                    > were allowed to show their hair and women wore all
                    > sorts of pretty, tempting things.
                    >
                    > And while Russian garments are often described as
                    > "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move
                    > in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan
                    > bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?
                    >
                    > When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is
                    > rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not
                    > surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated
                    > into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring
                    > techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter
                    > the Great may have trouble evaluating "old
                    > fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits
                    > without imposing their own biases and expectations.
                    >
                    >
                    > >That is also why they were secluded in the
                    > >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                    > >other than their husband and immediate family
                    >
                    > Actually, only the very upper levels of late period
                    > Russian society practiced the seclusion of the
                    > terem. They were the only ones with houses big
                    > enough to shut away the women. Although the women
                    > weren't really shut away. They had an important
                    > role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and
                    > networking with the women of other noble families.
                    > Politics was all about family connections, and it
                    > was the women who made the marriages that created
                    > those family connections. And if you read the
                    > Domostroi carefully, you will see that the
                    > "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to
                    > supervise her servants and staff - including men,
                    > and there are other examples of the role of women in
                    > the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact
                    > to some extent with men outside their "immediate
                    > family".
                    >
                    > So the seclusion of women could hardly be a
                    > religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of
                    > society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't
                    > follow it perfectly.
                    >
                    > Just some thoughts,
                    >
                    > Sofya
                    >
                    >
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                    > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                    > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                    > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                    >
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >


                    Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                  • Shannon Anderson
                    I like the Russian silhouette, it s comfortable and natural enough. Why I m looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                      I like the Russian silhouette, it's comfortable and natural enough. Why I'm looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the bolt I wanted for something skimpier and b) there's this European dress I've wanted to make for a long time and I was hoping to find it's Russian "cousin."

                      I may just make the jacket we've been discussing with my remaining fabric, to go over a more typical dress.

                      Thanks for the help,

                      Margarita


                      ---------------------------------
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                    • DOUGLAS PETROFF
                      And please don t forget this all came about after the Mongolian period. The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 14, 2007
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                        And please don't forget this all came about after the Mongolian period.
                        The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
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