Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [sig] gers was Re: Pavillion question

Expand Messages
  • Rod Giffin
    ... According to Giovanni DiPlano Carpini s description from the 13th Century, Mongol yurts had *felt* doors. He also noted that once a red colored yurt was
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
      threeravenbirds wrote:
      > Hmm, I don't really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend
      > if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being
      > used.

      According to Giovanni DiPlano Carpini's description from the 13th
      Century, Mongol yurts had *felt* doors. He also noted that once a red
      colored yurt was built that cold hold 2000 people, and that yurts had
      various uses, sizes, and modes of transport.

      Also this statement is often used to describe the differences between
      ancient and modern yurts:
      "During ancient times people used felt shutters, lifting it up to open
      or close, which acted as a door. Modern nomads began to have wooden doors."

      Orderic.
    • Rod Giffin
      ... The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time, or even
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
        L.M. Kies wrote:
        > Anyway, the point is that period Russians may not have found the yurt suitable for their climate. Or maybe they did.
        > Maybe they hated the Mongols enough that they refused to use yurts. Or maybe they adopted them like they did spices, silks and light cavalry.
        >
        >
        The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians
        KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time,
        or even often. It was a common structure among many other people that
        early Russians encountered, not only Mongols, to the South and East at
        least. It was certainly known to them long before the Mongole
        invasion. The only art examples I've ever seen though are a couple of
        representations of the Byzantine Varangian Guard, from the 12th Century
        which showed a yurt like structure in the painting (miniatures from
        Ioannes Skylitzes, who's art is not an example of the craft at it's
        finest. He was primarily a writer).

        This is the thing though. It's unlikely from a practical point of view
        that a Mongolian style yurt would have been popular at all in the Kiev,
        Novgorod, Tver, Moscow or other north Western regions at any rate, not
        just from a weather point of view. We're talking a region of true
        boreal forest here, very nearly a rain forest of mixed underbrush and
        conifers that existed all the way to the Urals. (And largely still
        does.) It would make yurt moving rather difficult, and a felt yurt
        would quickly wick water. They were built for dry climates without a
        lot of forestation, where nomadic herders lived. And why would you want
        to drag your house along with you, with all that wood around? Just
        leave it and make another further down the road.

        > You may make up your own mind on the issue. I'm still on the fence... a lattice fence, arranged in a circle about 12 feet in diameter, with red rafters and a beautiful red door... on a wagon... ;-)
        Ok, so the cool factor of that picture just about does it for me. I'm
        almost POSITIVE that I saw at least one period painting that depicted a
        yurt (period although fairly late period). Tents in general are
        somewhat rare in period art though, and I wasn't looking for tents and
        yurts. It's just that I have this almost positive feeling that I did
        see one in at least one period painting.

        And there's one other factor to consider. That is the C part of the
        SCA. The C part is where we get to experiment and have some fun with
        the history. So a early Rus merchant goes wondering...South East along
        the Silk Road, encounters some Turkic peoples and lives with them for a
        while, picks up some ideas like yurts. That kind of stuff actually
        happened all the time, especially to people with Viking origins, so it's
        not all that far fetched.

        Orderic.
      • Lente
        okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the world s tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from the inner mongolia
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 12, 2007
          okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the
          world's tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from
          the inner mongolia region. Anyway go check out the slideshow link on the
          left and in some of the pictures you will see for part of the ceremony
          they used a small yurt on a wagon. very neat looking.

          > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070712/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_china_tallest

          Kathws
        • Shannon Anderson
          I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60 wide silks. Now, I m trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I m sure) before
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
            I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure) before heading "home" to Pennsic.

            I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.

            This the closest I've found to anything even remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my persona date within the Slavic world. It probably doesn't even count because the story is German, I think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

            This might be a lost cause. All vague references to waist created with anything other than a belt seem to be Western influence, later period.

            Margarita


            ---------------------------------
            Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • L.M. Kies
            Margarita, poklon ot Sofya! ... Congratulations! ... Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
              Margarita, poklon ot Sofya!

              >
              >I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks.

              Congratulations!

              >I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O ... c. 1385, Prague. ...wearing a dress that very
              >clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.... Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other
              >types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

              Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It has a waist seam and a slightly gathered short skirt. So that would be *something* suggesting a different type of fitting in 12-13th cent. Rus women's dress.

              But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful, figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost cause.
              I just gave mine to my sister. :-P

              Sofya

              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
              Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
              "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
              --------------------------------------------------------------------




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sfandra
              ... LOL! That s so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one cotehardie to my sister too! --Sfandra ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
                >
                > But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful,
                > figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost
                > cause.
                > I just gave mine to my sister. :-P
                >
                > Sofya
                >

                LOL! That's so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one
                cotehardie to my sister too!

                --Sfandra

                ******************
                Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                Haus Von Drakenklaue
                Kingdom of the East
                ******************
                Never 'pearl' your butt.



                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                It's here! Your new message!
                Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
              • Marilee Humason
                I am afraid you aren t going to find anything because the idea was a static figure,no shape. Everyone looked the same and women were evil according to the
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
                  I am afraid you aren't going to find anything because
                  the idea was a "static" figure,no shape. Everyone
                  looked the same and women were "evil" according to the
                  religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                  any way. That is also why they were secluded in the
                  later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                  other than their husband and immediate family, they
                  were not to be trusted! Gotta love religions mostly
                  created by men!
                  Anastasia
                  --- Shannon Anderson <kitonlove@...> wrote:

                  > I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a
                  > yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some
                  > dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure)
                  > before heading "home" to Pennsic.
                  >
                  > I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated
                  > O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The
                  > Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von
                  > Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a
                  > dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and
                  > is fitted.
                  >
                  > This the closest I've found to anything even
                  > remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my
                  > persona date within the Slavic world. It probably
                  > doesn't even count because the story is German, I
                  > think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any
                  > other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's
                  > dress?
                  >
                  > This might be a lost cause. All vague references to
                  > waist created with anything other than a belt seem
                  > to be Western influence, later period.
                  >
                  > Margarita
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet
                  > in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >


                  Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                • L.M. Kies
                  ... I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
                    > women were "evil" according to the
                    >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                    >any way.

                    I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens were allowed to show their hair and women wore all sorts of pretty, tempting things.

                    And while Russian garments are often described as "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?

                    When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter the Great may have trouble evaluating "old fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits without imposing their own biases and expectations.

                    >That is also why they were secluded in the
                    >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                    >other than their husband and immediate family

                    Actually, only the very upper levels of late period Russian society practiced the seclusion of the terem. They were the only ones with houses big enough to shut away the women. Although the women weren't really shut away. They had an important role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and networking with the women of other noble families. Politics was all about family connections, and it was the women who made the marriages that created those family connections. And if you read the Domostroi carefully, you will see that the "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to supervise her servants and staff - including men, and there are other examples of the role of women in the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact to some extent with men outside their "immediate family".

                    So the seclusion of women could hardly be a religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't follow it perfectly.

                    Just some thoughts,

                    Sofya

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                    Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                    http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                    "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Marilee Humason
                    Well, this is based on the books I have read about the religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
                      Well, this is based on the books I have read about the
                      religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th
                      century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be confused
                      with peasants or people in out laying areas where they
                      are much less strict.
                      Also the dresses are shapeless because I was 8 months
                      pregnant and wearing the same dress I always wore and
                      some people didn't know I was pregnant!
                      I agree with the assessment from the Domostroi but if
                      you read Olearius he talks about the great privaledge
                      it was to actually meet the Boyars wife as they were
                      not allowed out.
                      And yes I do mean upper class, but then we in the
                      Society are supposed to be creating noblemen. What we
                      can actually create is not going to be purely period,
                      it is going to be an SCA version of Period.
                      Anastasia
                      --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

                      > > women were "evil" according to the
                      > >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                      > >any way.
                      >
                      > I was always under the impression that such severe
                      > attitudes about women were confined to the rantings
                      > of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                      > of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens
                      > were allowed to show their hair and women wore all
                      > sorts of pretty, tempting things.
                      >
                      > And while Russian garments are often described as
                      > "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move
                      > in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan
                      > bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?
                      >
                      > When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is
                      > rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not
                      > surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated
                      > into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring
                      > techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter
                      > the Great may have trouble evaluating "old
                      > fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits
                      > without imposing their own biases and expectations.
                      >
                      >
                      > >That is also why they were secluded in the
                      > >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                      > >other than their husband and immediate family
                      >
                      > Actually, only the very upper levels of late period
                      > Russian society practiced the seclusion of the
                      > terem. They were the only ones with houses big
                      > enough to shut away the women. Although the women
                      > weren't really shut away. They had an important
                      > role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and
                      > networking with the women of other noble families.
                      > Politics was all about family connections, and it
                      > was the women who made the marriages that created
                      > those family connections. And if you read the
                      > Domostroi carefully, you will see that the
                      > "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to
                      > supervise her servants and staff - including men,
                      > and there are other examples of the role of women in
                      > the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact
                      > to some extent with men outside their "immediate
                      > family".
                      >
                      > So the seclusion of women could hardly be a
                      > religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of
                      > society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't
                      > follow it perfectly.
                      >
                      > Just some thoughts,
                      >
                      > Sofya
                      >
                      >
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                      > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                      > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                      > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                      >
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >


                      Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                    • Shannon Anderson
                      I like the Russian silhouette, it s comfortable and natural enough. Why I m looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
                        I like the Russian silhouette, it's comfortable and natural enough. Why I'm looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the bolt I wanted for something skimpier and b) there's this European dress I've wanted to make for a long time and I was hoping to find it's Russian "cousin."

                        I may just make the jacket we've been discussing with my remaining fabric, to go over a more typical dress.

                        Thanks for the help,

                        Margarita


                        ---------------------------------
                        Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • DOUGLAS PETROFF
                        And please don t forget this all came about after the Mongolian period. The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 14, 2007
                          And please don't forget this all came about after the Mongolian period.
                          The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.