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RE: [sig] gers was Re: Pavillion question

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  • L.M. Kies
    ... I m sorry, I don t seem to have been clear about the true purpose of the moisture discussion in my email (I should not have included North America in
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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      >Yes I do live in NM which is semi arid mountain desert, but our ger
      >has been to several camping events that because of rain, hail, slush
      >has had a high humidity content.

      I'm sorry, I don't seem to have been clear about the true purpose of the "moisture" discussion in my email (I should not have included "North America" in my statements *sigh*). I think yurts/gers/etc. are quite suitable for SCA use, especially since we seldom make them the traditional way. Remember, I've got one on my "wish list" and the company that makes it claims to have solved the moisture problem. ;-)

      Even in the wettest parts of the Knowne World, we only have our tents set up for short periods. So _if_ the traditional design of the yurt is unsuitable for this "moist" climate, it doesn't really matter. In a couple of days we'll take it down and drape it around the garage/basement to dry out before packing it away until the next big event in a couple of months.

      However, Dimitrii's original question was what would a period Russian use. And I'm concerned that the design would have had problems in swampy northern medieval Russia on long campaigns - with the felt covering and traditional design of the wood doors wicking moisture from the mossy ground. Then again, the grasslands of southern Rus probably would not have had an issue with this. And the yurt on a wagon depicted on one of the Osprey Mongol books would have avoided the moisture problem nicely. (Hmmm... A new wagon... )

      Anyway, the point is that period Russians may not have found the yurt suitable for their climate. Or maybe they did.
      Maybe they hated the Mongols enough that they refused to use yurts. Or maybe they adopted them like they did spices, silks and light cavalry.

      You may make up your own mind on the issue. I'm still on the fence... a lattice fence, arranged in a circle about 12 feet in diameter, with red rafters and a beautiful red door... on a wagon... ;-)

      Sofya

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
      >And while I have a lovely little yurt on the list of things to get if I win the lottery...
      >
      > according to the website of my "dream yurt" ...they're designed for the dry, semi-desert
      >steppe. They do great in the cold, but the design of the wooden doors, for example, doesn't
      >do well with the kind of moist climate to be found in Europe ...
      >
      > The presence of the following link is not meant to be an endorsement
      for the company - but it's so pretty...
      > http://www.ulaantaij.com/

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      --------------------------------------------------------------------





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tamara Duran
      Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I ve turned up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but haven t myself seen
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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        Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I've turned
        up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but
        haven't myself seen documentation for wooden doors in period & would
        love to get my hands on some.

        Our door is felt applique on a canvas back, and we have three ties
        down each side to secure it to the khana if it's windy.

        --Kazimira
      • John Beebe
        The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this picture: http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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          The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this picture:
          http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg

          ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion (which just attended its first event, yay!)

          -Ivan.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tim Nalley
          Either that or the lines run straight out like on jannisary tents. Later jannisary tents had parameter poles, but on the exterior, with finials and a center
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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            Either that or the lines run straight out like on
            jannisary tents. Later jannisary tents had parameter
            poles, but on the exterior, with finials and a center
            pole with a cap, like on the Nevskii tents.
            'dok
            --- John Beebe <jbeebe_53713@...> wrote:

            > The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this
            > picture:
            > http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg
            >
            > ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion
            > (which just attended its first event, yay!)
            >
            > -Ivan.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >




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          • threeravenbirds
            Hmm, I don t really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being used. I have to ask
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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              Hmm, I don't really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend
              if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being
              used. I have to ask him because he is the one whose read through all
              the mongol books, me I just look for the pretty clothing so I can make
              his garb. I just want a wood door for when we have the major winds
              (more than 30mph around here) that make keeping the canvas door flap
              in place impossible. Having been hit in the face more than once by a
              blowing flap, I really don't want to have it happen again anytime
              soon. Darn thing is worse than a wet towel snap.

              I never thought of ties, silly of me when I made the new door flap, I
              did put grommets down both sides but we never use them; I tend to push
              the door flap out of the way on one side and everyone else uses the
              other side, 4 righties and 1 lefty just really messes things up. I
              just made the flap wider so even if it got hung crooked there were no
              gaps along the sides. On the decorative panel I put 2 grommets at the
              bottom corners then we can use it as a small shade flap tied to our
              banners poles out about 6 feet away from the door frame. If we set up
              the whole deal this weekend I will see about taking some pictures and
              posting them. a picture is worth a 1000 words right?

              The past couple of camping events we have also hung a sheer-ish panel
              (it has ties at the top) along one of the rafter poles, just to the
              left as you are going into the ger. It hides my husbands armor box,
              water bottles and we set up a folding stool in the small area behind
              the box so we all have a small changing area. It mostly started out
              being set up for my husband; with 3 adults (MIL, him and me) and 2
              kids that run in and out of the ger all the time he needs a bit of
              privacy.

              Kathws

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara Duran" <sazabhadri@...> wrote:
              >
              > Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I've turned
              > up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but
              > haven't myself seen documentation for wooden doors in period & would
              > love to get my hands on some.
              >
              > Our door is felt applique on a canvas back, and we have three ties
              > down each side to secure it to the khana if it's windy.
              >
              > --Kazimira
            • Rod Giffin
              ... According to Giovanni DiPlano Carpini s description from the 13th Century, Mongol yurts had *felt* doors. He also noted that once a red colored yurt was
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                threeravenbirds wrote:
                > Hmm, I don't really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend
                > if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being
                > used.

                According to Giovanni DiPlano Carpini's description from the 13th
                Century, Mongol yurts had *felt* doors. He also noted that once a red
                colored yurt was built that cold hold 2000 people, and that yurts had
                various uses, sizes, and modes of transport.

                Also this statement is often used to describe the differences between
                ancient and modern yurts:
                "During ancient times people used felt shutters, lifting it up to open
                or close, which acted as a door. Modern nomads began to have wooden doors."

                Orderic.
              • Rod Giffin
                ... The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time, or even
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                  L.M. Kies wrote:
                  > Anyway, the point is that period Russians may not have found the yurt suitable for their climate. Or maybe they did.
                  > Maybe they hated the Mongols enough that they refused to use yurts. Or maybe they adopted them like they did spices, silks and light cavalry.
                  >
                  >
                  The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians
                  KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time,
                  or even often. It was a common structure among many other people that
                  early Russians encountered, not only Mongols, to the South and East at
                  least. It was certainly known to them long before the Mongole
                  invasion. The only art examples I've ever seen though are a couple of
                  representations of the Byzantine Varangian Guard, from the 12th Century
                  which showed a yurt like structure in the painting (miniatures from
                  Ioannes Skylitzes, who's art is not an example of the craft at it's
                  finest. He was primarily a writer).

                  This is the thing though. It's unlikely from a practical point of view
                  that a Mongolian style yurt would have been popular at all in the Kiev,
                  Novgorod, Tver, Moscow or other north Western regions at any rate, not
                  just from a weather point of view. We're talking a region of true
                  boreal forest here, very nearly a rain forest of mixed underbrush and
                  conifers that existed all the way to the Urals. (And largely still
                  does.) It would make yurt moving rather difficult, and a felt yurt
                  would quickly wick water. They were built for dry climates without a
                  lot of forestation, where nomadic herders lived. And why would you want
                  to drag your house along with you, with all that wood around? Just
                  leave it and make another further down the road.

                  > You may make up your own mind on the issue. I'm still on the fence... a lattice fence, arranged in a circle about 12 feet in diameter, with red rafters and a beautiful red door... on a wagon... ;-)
                  Ok, so the cool factor of that picture just about does it for me. I'm
                  almost POSITIVE that I saw at least one period painting that depicted a
                  yurt (period although fairly late period). Tents in general are
                  somewhat rare in period art though, and I wasn't looking for tents and
                  yurts. It's just that I have this almost positive feeling that I did
                  see one in at least one period painting.

                  And there's one other factor to consider. That is the C part of the
                  SCA. The C part is where we get to experiment and have some fun with
                  the history. So a early Rus merchant goes wondering...South East along
                  the Silk Road, encounters some Turkic peoples and lives with them for a
                  while, picks up some ideas like yurts. That kind of stuff actually
                  happened all the time, especially to people with Viking origins, so it's
                  not all that far fetched.

                  Orderic.
                • Lente
                  okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the world s tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from the inner mongolia
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 12, 2007
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                    okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the
                    world's tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from
                    the inner mongolia region. Anyway go check out the slideshow link on the
                    left and in some of the pictures you will see for part of the ceremony
                    they used a small yurt on a wagon. very neat looking.

                    > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070712/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_china_tallest

                    Kathws
                  • Shannon Anderson
                    I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60 wide silks. Now, I m trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I m sure) before
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                      I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure) before heading "home" to Pennsic.

                      I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.

                      This the closest I've found to anything even remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my persona date within the Slavic world. It probably doesn't even count because the story is German, I think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

                      This might be a lost cause. All vague references to waist created with anything other than a belt seem to be Western influence, later period.

                      Margarita


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                    • L.M. Kies
                      Margarita, poklon ot Sofya! ... Congratulations! ... Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                        Margarita, poklon ot Sofya!

                        >
                        >I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks.

                        Congratulations!

                        >I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O ... c. 1385, Prague. ...wearing a dress that very
                        >clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.... Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other
                        >types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

                        Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It has a waist seam and a slightly gathered short skirt. So that would be *something* suggesting a different type of fitting in 12-13th cent. Rus women's dress.

                        But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful, figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost cause.
                        I just gave mine to my sister. :-P

                        Sofya

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sfandra
                        ... LOL! That s so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one cotehardie to my sister too! --Sfandra ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                          >
                          > But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful,
                          > figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost
                          > cause.
                          > I just gave mine to my sister. :-P
                          >
                          > Sofya
                          >

                          LOL! That's so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one
                          cotehardie to my sister too!

                          --Sfandra

                          ******************
                          Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                          KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                          Haus Von Drakenklaue
                          Kingdom of the East
                          ******************
                          Never 'pearl' your butt.



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                        • Marilee Humason
                          I am afraid you aren t going to find anything because the idea was a static figure,no shape. Everyone looked the same and women were evil according to the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                            I am afraid you aren't going to find anything because
                            the idea was a "static" figure,no shape. Everyone
                            looked the same and women were "evil" according to the
                            religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                            any way. That is also why they were secluded in the
                            later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                            other than their husband and immediate family, they
                            were not to be trusted! Gotta love religions mostly
                            created by men!
                            Anastasia
                            --- Shannon Anderson <kitonlove@...> wrote:

                            > I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a
                            > yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some
                            > dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure)
                            > before heading "home" to Pennsic.
                            >
                            > I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated
                            > O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The
                            > Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von
                            > Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a
                            > dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and
                            > is fitted.
                            >
                            > This the closest I've found to anything even
                            > remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my
                            > persona date within the Slavic world. It probably
                            > doesn't even count because the story is German, I
                            > think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any
                            > other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's
                            > dress?
                            >
                            > This might be a lost cause. All vague references to
                            > waist created with anything other than a belt seem
                            > to be Western influence, later period.
                            >
                            > Margarita
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
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                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >


                            Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                          • L.M. Kies
                            ... I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                              > women were "evil" according to the
                              >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                              >any way.

                              I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens were allowed to show their hair and women wore all sorts of pretty, tempting things.

                              And while Russian garments are often described as "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?

                              When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter the Great may have trouble evaluating "old fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits without imposing their own biases and expectations.

                              >That is also why they were secluded in the
                              >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                              >other than their husband and immediate family

                              Actually, only the very upper levels of late period Russian society practiced the seclusion of the terem. They were the only ones with houses big enough to shut away the women. Although the women weren't really shut away. They had an important role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and networking with the women of other noble families. Politics was all about family connections, and it was the women who made the marriages that created those family connections. And if you read the Domostroi carefully, you will see that the "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to supervise her servants and staff - including men, and there are other examples of the role of women in the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact to some extent with men outside their "immediate family".

                              So the seclusion of women could hardly be a religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't follow it perfectly.

                              Just some thoughts,

                              Sofya

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                              Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                              "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Marilee Humason
                              Well, this is based on the books I have read about the religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                Well, this is based on the books I have read about the
                                religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th
                                century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be confused
                                with peasants or people in out laying areas where they
                                are much less strict.
                                Also the dresses are shapeless because I was 8 months
                                pregnant and wearing the same dress I always wore and
                                some people didn't know I was pregnant!
                                I agree with the assessment from the Domostroi but if
                                you read Olearius he talks about the great privaledge
                                it was to actually meet the Boyars wife as they were
                                not allowed out.
                                And yes I do mean upper class, but then we in the
                                Society are supposed to be creating noblemen. What we
                                can actually create is not going to be purely period,
                                it is going to be an SCA version of Period.
                                Anastasia
                                --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

                                > > women were "evil" according to the
                                > >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                                > >any way.
                                >
                                > I was always under the impression that such severe
                                > attitudes about women were confined to the rantings
                                > of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                                > of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens
                                > were allowed to show their hair and women wore all
                                > sorts of pretty, tempting things.
                                >
                                > And while Russian garments are often described as
                                > "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move
                                > in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan
                                > bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?
                                >
                                > When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is
                                > rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not
                                > surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated
                                > into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring
                                > techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter
                                > the Great may have trouble evaluating "old
                                > fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits
                                > without imposing their own biases and expectations.
                                >
                                >
                                > >That is also why they were secluded in the
                                > >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                                > >other than their husband and immediate family
                                >
                                > Actually, only the very upper levels of late period
                                > Russian society practiced the seclusion of the
                                > terem. They were the only ones with houses big
                                > enough to shut away the women. Although the women
                                > weren't really shut away. They had an important
                                > role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and
                                > networking with the women of other noble families.
                                > Politics was all about family connections, and it
                                > was the women who made the marriages that created
                                > those family connections. And if you read the
                                > Domostroi carefully, you will see that the
                                > "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to
                                > supervise her servants and staff - including men,
                                > and there are other examples of the role of women in
                                > the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact
                                > to some extent with men outside their "immediate
                                > family".
                                >
                                > So the seclusion of women could hardly be a
                                > religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of
                                > society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't
                                > follow it perfectly.
                                >
                                > Just some thoughts,
                                >
                                > Sofya
                                >
                                >
                                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                >
                                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                > removed]
                                >
                                >


                                Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                              • Shannon Anderson
                                I like the Russian silhouette, it s comfortable and natural enough. Why I m looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                  I like the Russian silhouette, it's comfortable and natural enough. Why I'm looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the bolt I wanted for something skimpier and b) there's this European dress I've wanted to make for a long time and I was hoping to find it's Russian "cousin."

                                  I may just make the jacket we've been discussing with my remaining fabric, to go over a more typical dress.

                                  Thanks for the help,

                                  Margarita


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                                • DOUGLAS PETROFF
                                  And please don t forget this all came about after the Mongolian period. The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 14, 2007
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                                    And please don't forget this all came about after the Mongolian period.
                                    The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
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