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  • threeravenbirds
    http://www.amagyarjurta.com/bibliography.php shows the doors she made for her yurt. I believe she is in An tir so lots of moisture We have had our yurt for 7
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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      http://www.amagyarjurta.com/bibliography.php shows the doors she made
      for her yurt. I believe she is in An tir so lots of moisture

      We have had our yurt for 7 years, got it made by a gentleman out of
      Kent, Ohio (Singing Horse Designs, but no longer in business as real
      life happened). Right now we have a canvas door flap, a wood door is
      in the planning stages, first try is going to be out of plywood with
      an extra layer along the edges. Gers I have seen with wood doors at
      Estrella or in the Outlands is if they have a wood door, I would say
      the doors I have seen its been evenly split between a single door and
      2 smaller doors, either style may have small windows or not.

      With our ger we have camped in rain at Estrella, twice. With a canvas
      door flap, we keep close to the door to close the flap at night is
      usually our sledgehammer, and our food box or a bottle of water. This
      is in case we have a serious wind blow starting up at night. If my
      husband brings his armor toolbox then it makes a great flap holder
      down. After we put a large-ish tear in our roof canvas I decided to
      make a new door flap so that I could keep the old flap as patching
      material. The first mold damage to our ger canvas happened on the
      patch which was a different canvas material. I also found a turkish
      kilim type print fabric at Walmart and made a decorative door flap so
      our ger is not quite a solid cream mass. okay so now after 7 years
      cream is not the color it is.

      Yes I do live in NM which is semi arid mountain desert, but our ger
      has been to several camping events that because of rain, hail, slush
      has had a high humidity content.

      Kathws Rusa



      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
      >And while I have a lovely little yurt on the list of things to get if
      I win the lottery, I have a little trouble justifying the use of one
      as a Russian.
      >
      > Pros: "Yurt" is based on a Russian word. "Ger" being the Mongol
      term. So Russians knew of yurts. Russians also, obviously, had close
      contact with the Mongols and other nomadic yurt-using peoples.
      Russians were influenced by these peoples, even intermarrying with
      them for a time, and borrowed a lot from them.
      >
      > Cons: Russians hate Mongols (yes, present tense).
      >
      > So it's hard to find the line between rejection of hated overlords
      and the possible (discreet) adoption of the useful/attractive things
      the overlords bring with them.
      >
      > One other problem with yurts, at least according to the website of
      my "dream yurt" is that they're designed for the dry, semi-desert
      steppe. They do great in the cold, but the design of the wooden
      doors, for example, doesn't do well with the kind of moist climate to
      be found in Europe and most of North America. (Unless, of course, you
      buy a yurt from this webpage that had re-designed the framing to be
      more suitable for their western clients.... ;-)
      >
      > The presence of the following link is not meant to be an endorsement
      for the company - but it's so pretty...
      > http://www.ulaantaij.com/
      >
      > K tvoim uslugam,
      >
      > Sofya
    • L.M. Kies
      ... I m sorry, I don t seem to have been clear about the true purpose of the moisture discussion in my email (I should not have included North America in
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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        >Yes I do live in NM which is semi arid mountain desert, but our ger
        >has been to several camping events that because of rain, hail, slush
        >has had a high humidity content.

        I'm sorry, I don't seem to have been clear about the true purpose of the "moisture" discussion in my email (I should not have included "North America" in my statements *sigh*). I think yurts/gers/etc. are quite suitable for SCA use, especially since we seldom make them the traditional way. Remember, I've got one on my "wish list" and the company that makes it claims to have solved the moisture problem. ;-)

        Even in the wettest parts of the Knowne World, we only have our tents set up for short periods. So _if_ the traditional design of the yurt is unsuitable for this "moist" climate, it doesn't really matter. In a couple of days we'll take it down and drape it around the garage/basement to dry out before packing it away until the next big event in a couple of months.

        However, Dimitrii's original question was what would a period Russian use. And I'm concerned that the design would have had problems in swampy northern medieval Russia on long campaigns - with the felt covering and traditional design of the wood doors wicking moisture from the mossy ground. Then again, the grasslands of southern Rus probably would not have had an issue with this. And the yurt on a wagon depicted on one of the Osprey Mongol books would have avoided the moisture problem nicely. (Hmmm... A new wagon... )

        Anyway, the point is that period Russians may not have found the yurt suitable for their climate. Or maybe they did.
        Maybe they hated the Mongols enough that they refused to use yurts. Or maybe they adopted them like they did spices, silks and light cavalry.

        You may make up your own mind on the issue. I'm still on the fence... a lattice fence, arranged in a circle about 12 feet in diameter, with red rafters and a beautiful red door... on a wagon... ;-)

        Sofya

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
        >And while I have a lovely little yurt on the list of things to get if I win the lottery...
        >
        > according to the website of my "dream yurt" ...they're designed for the dry, semi-desert
        >steppe. They do great in the cold, but the design of the wooden doors, for example, doesn't
        >do well with the kind of moist climate to be found in Europe ...
        >
        > The presence of the following link is not meant to be an endorsement
        for the company - but it's so pretty...
        > http://www.ulaantaij.com/

        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        --------------------------------------------------------------------





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tamara Duran
        Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I ve turned up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but haven t myself seen
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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          Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I've turned
          up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but
          haven't myself seen documentation for wooden doors in period & would
          love to get my hands on some.

          Our door is felt applique on a canvas back, and we have three ties
          down each side to secure it to the khana if it's windy.

          --Kazimira
        • John Beebe
          The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this picture: http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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            The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this picture:
            http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg

            ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion (which just attended its first event, yay!)

            -Ivan.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tim Nalley
            Either that or the lines run straight out like on jannisary tents. Later jannisary tents had parameter poles, but on the exterior, with finials and a center
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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              Either that or the lines run straight out like on
              jannisary tents. Later jannisary tents had parameter
              poles, but on the exterior, with finials and a center
              pole with a cap, like on the Nevskii tents.
              'dok
              --- John Beebe <jbeebe_53713@...> wrote:

              > The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this
              > picture:
              > http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg
              >
              > ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion
              > (which just attended its first event, yay!)
              >
              > -Ivan.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >




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            • threeravenbirds
              Hmm, I don t really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being used. I have to ask
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                Hmm, I don't really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend
                if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being
                used. I have to ask him because he is the one whose read through all
                the mongol books, me I just look for the pretty clothing so I can make
                his garb. I just want a wood door for when we have the major winds
                (more than 30mph around here) that make keeping the canvas door flap
                in place impossible. Having been hit in the face more than once by a
                blowing flap, I really don't want to have it happen again anytime
                soon. Darn thing is worse than a wet towel snap.

                I never thought of ties, silly of me when I made the new door flap, I
                did put grommets down both sides but we never use them; I tend to push
                the door flap out of the way on one side and everyone else uses the
                other side, 4 righties and 1 lefty just really messes things up. I
                just made the flap wider so even if it got hung crooked there were no
                gaps along the sides. On the decorative panel I put 2 grommets at the
                bottom corners then we can use it as a small shade flap tied to our
                banners poles out about 6 feet away from the door frame. If we set up
                the whole deal this weekend I will see about taking some pictures and
                posting them. a picture is worth a 1000 words right?

                The past couple of camping events we have also hung a sheer-ish panel
                (it has ties at the top) along one of the rafter poles, just to the
                left as you are going into the ger. It hides my husbands armor box,
                water bottles and we set up a folding stool in the small area behind
                the box so we all have a small changing area. It mostly started out
                being set up for my husband; with 3 adults (MIL, him and me) and 2
                kids that run in and out of the ger all the time he needs a bit of
                privacy.

                Kathws

                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara Duran" <sazabhadri@...> wrote:
                >
                > Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I've turned
                > up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but
                > haven't myself seen documentation for wooden doors in period & would
                > love to get my hands on some.
                >
                > Our door is felt applique on a canvas back, and we have three ties
                > down each side to secure it to the khana if it's windy.
                >
                > --Kazimira
              • Rod Giffin
                ... According to Giovanni DiPlano Carpini s description from the 13th Century, Mongol yurts had *felt* doors. He also noted that once a red colored yurt was
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                  threeravenbirds wrote:
                  > Hmm, I don't really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend
                  > if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being
                  > used.

                  According to Giovanni DiPlano Carpini's description from the 13th
                  Century, Mongol yurts had *felt* doors. He also noted that once a red
                  colored yurt was built that cold hold 2000 people, and that yurts had
                  various uses, sizes, and modes of transport.

                  Also this statement is often used to describe the differences between
                  ancient and modern yurts:
                  "During ancient times people used felt shutters, lifting it up to open
                  or close, which acted as a door. Modern nomads began to have wooden doors."

                  Orderic.
                • Rod Giffin
                  ... The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time, or even
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                    L.M. Kies wrote:
                    > Anyway, the point is that period Russians may not have found the yurt suitable for their climate. Or maybe they did.
                    > Maybe they hated the Mongols enough that they refused to use yurts. Or maybe they adopted them like they did spices, silks and light cavalry.
                    >
                    >
                    The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians
                    KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time,
                    or even often. It was a common structure among many other people that
                    early Russians encountered, not only Mongols, to the South and East at
                    least. It was certainly known to them long before the Mongole
                    invasion. The only art examples I've ever seen though are a couple of
                    representations of the Byzantine Varangian Guard, from the 12th Century
                    which showed a yurt like structure in the painting (miniatures from
                    Ioannes Skylitzes, who's art is not an example of the craft at it's
                    finest. He was primarily a writer).

                    This is the thing though. It's unlikely from a practical point of view
                    that a Mongolian style yurt would have been popular at all in the Kiev,
                    Novgorod, Tver, Moscow or other north Western regions at any rate, not
                    just from a weather point of view. We're talking a region of true
                    boreal forest here, very nearly a rain forest of mixed underbrush and
                    conifers that existed all the way to the Urals. (And largely still
                    does.) It would make yurt moving rather difficult, and a felt yurt
                    would quickly wick water. They were built for dry climates without a
                    lot of forestation, where nomadic herders lived. And why would you want
                    to drag your house along with you, with all that wood around? Just
                    leave it and make another further down the road.

                    > You may make up your own mind on the issue. I'm still on the fence... a lattice fence, arranged in a circle about 12 feet in diameter, with red rafters and a beautiful red door... on a wagon... ;-)
                    Ok, so the cool factor of that picture just about does it for me. I'm
                    almost POSITIVE that I saw at least one period painting that depicted a
                    yurt (period although fairly late period). Tents in general are
                    somewhat rare in period art though, and I wasn't looking for tents and
                    yurts. It's just that I have this almost positive feeling that I did
                    see one in at least one period painting.

                    And there's one other factor to consider. That is the C part of the
                    SCA. The C part is where we get to experiment and have some fun with
                    the history. So a early Rus merchant goes wondering...South East along
                    the Silk Road, encounters some Turkic peoples and lives with them for a
                    while, picks up some ideas like yurts. That kind of stuff actually
                    happened all the time, especially to people with Viking origins, so it's
                    not all that far fetched.

                    Orderic.
                  • Lente
                    okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the world s tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from the inner mongolia
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 12, 2007
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                      okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the
                      world's tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from
                      the inner mongolia region. Anyway go check out the slideshow link on the
                      left and in some of the pictures you will see for part of the ceremony
                      they used a small yurt on a wagon. very neat looking.

                      > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070712/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_china_tallest

                      Kathws
                    • Shannon Anderson
                      I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60 wide silks. Now, I m trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I m sure) before
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                        I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure) before heading "home" to Pennsic.

                        I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.

                        This the closest I've found to anything even remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my persona date within the Slavic world. It probably doesn't even count because the story is German, I think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

                        This might be a lost cause. All vague references to waist created with anything other than a belt seem to be Western influence, later period.

                        Margarita


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                      • L.M. Kies
                        Margarita, poklon ot Sofya! ... Congratulations! ... Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                          Margarita, poklon ot Sofya!

                          >
                          >I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks.

                          Congratulations!

                          >I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O ... c. 1385, Prague. ...wearing a dress that very
                          >clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.... Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other
                          >types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

                          Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It has a waist seam and a slightly gathered short skirt. So that would be *something* suggesting a different type of fitting in 12-13th cent. Rus women's dress.

                          But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful, figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost cause.
                          I just gave mine to my sister. :-P

                          Sofya

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Sfandra
                          ... LOL! That s so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one cotehardie to my sister too! --Sfandra ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                            >
                            > But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful,
                            > figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost
                            > cause.
                            > I just gave mine to my sister. :-P
                            >
                            > Sofya
                            >

                            LOL! That's so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one
                            cotehardie to my sister too!

                            --Sfandra

                            ******************
                            Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                            KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                            Haus Von Drakenklaue
                            Kingdom of the East
                            ******************
                            Never 'pearl' your butt.



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                          • Marilee Humason
                            I am afraid you aren t going to find anything because the idea was a static figure,no shape. Everyone looked the same and women were evil according to the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                              I am afraid you aren't going to find anything because
                              the idea was a "static" figure,no shape. Everyone
                              looked the same and women were "evil" according to the
                              religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                              any way. That is also why they were secluded in the
                              later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                              other than their husband and immediate family, they
                              were not to be trusted! Gotta love religions mostly
                              created by men!
                              Anastasia
                              --- Shannon Anderson <kitonlove@...> wrote:

                              > I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a
                              > yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some
                              > dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure)
                              > before heading "home" to Pennsic.
                              >
                              > I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated
                              > O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The
                              > Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von
                              > Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a
                              > dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and
                              > is fitted.
                              >
                              > This the closest I've found to anything even
                              > remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my
                              > persona date within the Slavic world. It probably
                              > doesn't even count because the story is German, I
                              > think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any
                              > other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's
                              > dress?
                              >
                              > This might be a lost cause. All vague references to
                              > waist created with anything other than a belt seem
                              > to be Western influence, later period.
                              >
                              > Margarita
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet
                              > in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              > removed]
                              >
                              >


                              Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                            • L.M. Kies
                              ... I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                > women were "evil" according to the
                                >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                                >any way.

                                I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens were allowed to show their hair and women wore all sorts of pretty, tempting things.

                                And while Russian garments are often described as "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?

                                When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter the Great may have trouble evaluating "old fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits without imposing their own biases and expectations.

                                >That is also why they were secluded in the
                                >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                                >other than their husband and immediate family

                                Actually, only the very upper levels of late period Russian society practiced the seclusion of the terem. They were the only ones with houses big enough to shut away the women. Although the women weren't really shut away. They had an important role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and networking with the women of other noble families. Politics was all about family connections, and it was the women who made the marriages that created those family connections. And if you read the Domostroi carefully, you will see that the "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to supervise her servants and staff - including men, and there are other examples of the role of women in the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact to some extent with men outside their "immediate family".

                                So the seclusion of women could hardly be a religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't follow it perfectly.

                                Just some thoughts,

                                Sofya

                                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                --------------------------------------------------------------------





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Marilee Humason
                                Well, this is based on the books I have read about the religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                  Well, this is based on the books I have read about the
                                  religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th
                                  century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be confused
                                  with peasants or people in out laying areas where they
                                  are much less strict.
                                  Also the dresses are shapeless because I was 8 months
                                  pregnant and wearing the same dress I always wore and
                                  some people didn't know I was pregnant!
                                  I agree with the assessment from the Domostroi but if
                                  you read Olearius he talks about the great privaledge
                                  it was to actually meet the Boyars wife as they were
                                  not allowed out.
                                  And yes I do mean upper class, but then we in the
                                  Society are supposed to be creating noblemen. What we
                                  can actually create is not going to be purely period,
                                  it is going to be an SCA version of Period.
                                  Anastasia
                                  --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

                                  > > women were "evil" according to the
                                  > >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                                  > >any way.
                                  >
                                  > I was always under the impression that such severe
                                  > attitudes about women were confined to the rantings
                                  > of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                                  > of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens
                                  > were allowed to show their hair and women wore all
                                  > sorts of pretty, tempting things.
                                  >
                                  > And while Russian garments are often described as
                                  > "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move
                                  > in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan
                                  > bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?
                                  >
                                  > When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is
                                  > rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not
                                  > surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated
                                  > into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring
                                  > techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter
                                  > the Great may have trouble evaluating "old
                                  > fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits
                                  > without imposing their own biases and expectations.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >That is also why they were secluded in the
                                  > >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                                  > >other than their husband and immediate family
                                  >
                                  > Actually, only the very upper levels of late period
                                  > Russian society practiced the seclusion of the
                                  > terem. They were the only ones with houses big
                                  > enough to shut away the women. Although the women
                                  > weren't really shut away. They had an important
                                  > role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and
                                  > networking with the women of other noble families.
                                  > Politics was all about family connections, and it
                                  > was the women who made the marriages that created
                                  > those family connections. And if you read the
                                  > Domostroi carefully, you will see that the
                                  > "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to
                                  > supervise her servants and staff - including men,
                                  > and there are other examples of the role of women in
                                  > the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact
                                  > to some extent with men outside their "immediate
                                  > family".
                                  >
                                  > So the seclusion of women could hardly be a
                                  > religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of
                                  > society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't
                                  > follow it perfectly.
                                  >
                                  > Just some thoughts,
                                  >
                                  > Sofya
                                  >
                                  >
                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                  > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                  > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                  > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                  >
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                                  Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                                • Shannon Anderson
                                  I like the Russian silhouette, it s comfortable and natural enough. Why I m looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                    I like the Russian silhouette, it's comfortable and natural enough. Why I'm looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the bolt I wanted for something skimpier and b) there's this European dress I've wanted to make for a long time and I was hoping to find it's Russian "cousin."

                                    I may just make the jacket we've been discussing with my remaining fabric, to go over a more typical dress.

                                    Thanks for the help,

                                    Margarita


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                                  • DOUGLAS PETROFF
                                    And please don t forget this all came about after the Mongolian period. The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 14, 2007
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                                      And please don't forget this all came about after the Mongolian period.
                                      The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
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