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Pavillion question

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  • Mat D
    Poklon ot Dimitrii I have a question regarding tents and pavillions that were used by Russians during the 15th Century. My household is doing a large push to
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 9, 2007
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      Poklon ot Dimitrii

      I have a question regarding tents and pavillions that were used by
      Russians during the 15th Century. My household is doing a large push
      to try to get more period tents for events and demo's, and this
      suites me well as I want to raise my presentation in all things,
      including period camping. Now... I am having considerable trouble
      finding any sort of period tent or pavillion that Russian people
      used. Try searching Google for it, and all you get is a picture of
      the kremlin. Nice... but a bit hard to reproduce at an SCA event.

      So... any advice? Should I aim at some sort of yurt or cone style of
      tent? Should I look at what sort of tents Mongols or other conquring
      countries used?

      Any help what so ever would be greatly appreciated.
      Many thanks in advance

      K vashim uslugam, (Yours in Service)
      Dimitrii Borodinskii
      Barony of River Haven, Kingdom of Lochac
      (aka Mat D)
    • L.M. Kies
      Dimitrii, poklon ot Sofya. I have pondered period Russian portable housing at length. Pondered, because I haven t run across much solid information so far.
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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        Dimitrii, poklon ot Sofya.

        I have pondered period Russian portable housing at length. Pondered, because I haven't run across much solid information so far. There are, miracle of miracles, period Russian illustrations of tents in the Life of Alexander Nevskii which is available on-line thanks to our own Paul Wickenden. (But it's a little distant from my period - not too far off for you, though. :-)

        http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nevskii.html

        In particular:
        http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg
        http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev16.jpg
        http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev73.jpg

        I believe there are others, but you get the idea. :-)

        So basically, a round pavillion in fabulous colors if you can afford it. I have studied a beautiful royal Ottoman tent, with the thought that late period Russia had a lot of Turkish influence...

        http://www.greydragon.org/trips/Oct-D&E/index5.html

        And while I have a lovely little yurt on the list of things to get if I win the lottery, I have a little trouble justifying the use of one as a Russian.

        Pros: "Yurt" is based on a Russian word. "Ger" being the Mongol term. So Russians knew of yurts. Russians also, obviously, had close contact with the Mongols and other nomadic yurt-using peoples. Russians were influenced by these peoples, even intermarrying with them for a time, and borrowed a lot from them.

        Cons: Russians hate Mongols (yes, present tense).

        So it's hard to find the line between rejection of hated overlords and the possible (discreet) adoption of the useful/attractive things the overlords bring with them.

        One other problem with yurts, at least according to the website of my "dream yurt" is that they're designed for the dry, semi-desert steppe. They do great in the cold, but the design of the wooden doors, for example, doesn't do well with the kind of moist climate to be found in Europe and most of North America. (Unless, of course, you buy a yurt from this webpage that had re-designed the framing to be more suitable for their western clients.... ;-)

        The presence of the following link is not meant to be an endorsement for the company - but it's so pretty...
        http://www.ulaantaij.com/

        K tvoim uslugam,

        Sofya

        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        --------------------------------------------------------------------





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • threeravenbirds
        http://www.amagyarjurta.com/bibliography.php shows the doors she made for her yurt. I believe she is in An tir so lots of moisture We have had our yurt for 7
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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          http://www.amagyarjurta.com/bibliography.php shows the doors she made
          for her yurt. I believe she is in An tir so lots of moisture

          We have had our yurt for 7 years, got it made by a gentleman out of
          Kent, Ohio (Singing Horse Designs, but no longer in business as real
          life happened). Right now we have a canvas door flap, a wood door is
          in the planning stages, first try is going to be out of plywood with
          an extra layer along the edges. Gers I have seen with wood doors at
          Estrella or in the Outlands is if they have a wood door, I would say
          the doors I have seen its been evenly split between a single door and
          2 smaller doors, either style may have small windows or not.

          With our ger we have camped in rain at Estrella, twice. With a canvas
          door flap, we keep close to the door to close the flap at night is
          usually our sledgehammer, and our food box or a bottle of water. This
          is in case we have a serious wind blow starting up at night. If my
          husband brings his armor toolbox then it makes a great flap holder
          down. After we put a large-ish tear in our roof canvas I decided to
          make a new door flap so that I could keep the old flap as patching
          material. The first mold damage to our ger canvas happened on the
          patch which was a different canvas material. I also found a turkish
          kilim type print fabric at Walmart and made a decorative door flap so
          our ger is not quite a solid cream mass. okay so now after 7 years
          cream is not the color it is.

          Yes I do live in NM which is semi arid mountain desert, but our ger
          has been to several camping events that because of rain, hail, slush
          has had a high humidity content.

          Kathws Rusa



          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
          >And while I have a lovely little yurt on the list of things to get if
          I win the lottery, I have a little trouble justifying the use of one
          as a Russian.
          >
          > Pros: "Yurt" is based on a Russian word. "Ger" being the Mongol
          term. So Russians knew of yurts. Russians also, obviously, had close
          contact with the Mongols and other nomadic yurt-using peoples.
          Russians were influenced by these peoples, even intermarrying with
          them for a time, and borrowed a lot from them.
          >
          > Cons: Russians hate Mongols (yes, present tense).
          >
          > So it's hard to find the line between rejection of hated overlords
          and the possible (discreet) adoption of the useful/attractive things
          the overlords bring with them.
          >
          > One other problem with yurts, at least according to the website of
          my "dream yurt" is that they're designed for the dry, semi-desert
          steppe. They do great in the cold, but the design of the wooden
          doors, for example, doesn't do well with the kind of moist climate to
          be found in Europe and most of North America. (Unless, of course, you
          buy a yurt from this webpage that had re-designed the framing to be
          more suitable for their western clients.... ;-)
          >
          > The presence of the following link is not meant to be an endorsement
          for the company - but it's so pretty...
          > http://www.ulaantaij.com/
          >
          > K tvoim uslugam,
          >
          > Sofya
        • L.M. Kies
          ... I m sorry, I don t seem to have been clear about the true purpose of the moisture discussion in my email (I should not have included North America in
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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            >Yes I do live in NM which is semi arid mountain desert, but our ger
            >has been to several camping events that because of rain, hail, slush
            >has had a high humidity content.

            I'm sorry, I don't seem to have been clear about the true purpose of the "moisture" discussion in my email (I should not have included "North America" in my statements *sigh*). I think yurts/gers/etc. are quite suitable for SCA use, especially since we seldom make them the traditional way. Remember, I've got one on my "wish list" and the company that makes it claims to have solved the moisture problem. ;-)

            Even in the wettest parts of the Knowne World, we only have our tents set up for short periods. So _if_ the traditional design of the yurt is unsuitable for this "moist" climate, it doesn't really matter. In a couple of days we'll take it down and drape it around the garage/basement to dry out before packing it away until the next big event in a couple of months.

            However, Dimitrii's original question was what would a period Russian use. And I'm concerned that the design would have had problems in swampy northern medieval Russia on long campaigns - with the felt covering and traditional design of the wood doors wicking moisture from the mossy ground. Then again, the grasslands of southern Rus probably would not have had an issue with this. And the yurt on a wagon depicted on one of the Osprey Mongol books would have avoided the moisture problem nicely. (Hmmm... A new wagon... )

            Anyway, the point is that period Russians may not have found the yurt suitable for their climate. Or maybe they did.
            Maybe they hated the Mongols enough that they refused to use yurts. Or maybe they adopted them like they did spices, silks and light cavalry.

            You may make up your own mind on the issue. I'm still on the fence... a lattice fence, arranged in a circle about 12 feet in diameter, with red rafters and a beautiful red door... on a wagon... ;-)

            Sofya

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
            >And while I have a lovely little yurt on the list of things to get if I win the lottery...
            >
            > according to the website of my "dream yurt" ...they're designed for the dry, semi-desert
            >steppe. They do great in the cold, but the design of the wooden doors, for example, doesn't
            >do well with the kind of moist climate to be found in Europe ...
            >
            > The presence of the following link is not meant to be an endorsement
            for the company - but it's so pretty...
            > http://www.ulaantaij.com/

            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            --------------------------------------------------------------------





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tamara Duran
            Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I ve turned up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but haven t myself seen
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 10, 2007
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              Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I've turned
              up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but
              haven't myself seen documentation for wooden doors in period & would
              love to get my hands on some.

              Our door is felt applique on a canvas back, and we have three ties
              down each side to secure it to the khana if it's windy.

              --Kazimira
            • John Beebe
              The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this picture: http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this picture:
                http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg

                ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion (which just attended its first event, yay!)

                -Ivan.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tim Nalley
                Either that or the lines run straight out like on jannisary tents. Later jannisary tents had parameter poles, but on the exterior, with finials and a center
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                  Either that or the lines run straight out like on
                  jannisary tents. Later jannisary tents had parameter
                  poles, but on the exterior, with finials and a center
                  pole with a cap, like on the Nevskii tents.
                  'dok
                  --- John Beebe <jbeebe_53713@...> wrote:

                  > The way the wind ropes and roof are drawn on this
                  > picture:
                  > http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev14.jpg
                  >
                  > ... look suspciously like my spoked round pavilion
                  > (which just attended its first event, yay!)
                  >
                  > -Ivan.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >




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                • threeravenbirds
                  Hmm, I don t really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being used. I have to ask
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                    Hmm, I don't really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend
                    if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being
                    used. I have to ask him because he is the one whose read through all
                    the mongol books, me I just look for the pretty clothing so I can make
                    his garb. I just want a wood door for when we have the major winds
                    (more than 30mph around here) that make keeping the canvas door flap
                    in place impossible. Having been hit in the face more than once by a
                    blowing flap, I really don't want to have it happen again anytime
                    soon. Darn thing is worse than a wet towel snap.

                    I never thought of ties, silly of me when I made the new door flap, I
                    did put grommets down both sides but we never use them; I tend to push
                    the door flap out of the way on one side and everyone else uses the
                    other side, 4 righties and 1 lefty just really messes things up. I
                    just made the flap wider so even if it got hung crooked there were no
                    gaps along the sides. On the decorative panel I put 2 grommets at the
                    bottom corners then we can use it as a small shade flap tied to our
                    banners poles out about 6 feet away from the door frame. If we set up
                    the whole deal this weekend I will see about taking some pictures and
                    posting them. a picture is worth a 1000 words right?

                    The past couple of camping events we have also hung a sheer-ish panel
                    (it has ties at the top) along one of the rafter poles, just to the
                    left as you are going into the ger. It hides my husbands armor box,
                    water bottles and we set up a folding stool in the small area behind
                    the box so we all have a small changing area. It mostly started out
                    being set up for my husband; with 3 adults (MIL, him and me) and 2
                    kids that run in and out of the ger all the time he needs a bit of
                    privacy.

                    Kathws

                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara Duran" <sazabhadri@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Is there solid period evidence for wooden yurt doors ? I've turned
                    > up a manuscript illustration that clearly shows fabric doors, but
                    > haven't myself seen documentation for wooden doors in period & would
                    > love to get my hands on some.
                    >
                    > Our door is felt applique on a canvas back, and we have three ties
                    > down each side to secure it to the khana if it's windy.
                    >
                    > --Kazimira
                  • Rod Giffin
                    ... According to Giovanni DiPlano Carpini s description from the 13th Century, Mongol yurts had *felt* doors. He also noted that once a red colored yurt was
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                      threeravenbirds wrote:
                      > Hmm, I don't really know. I can ask my husband sometime this weekend
                      > if he ever saw any reference about wooden doors or cloth doors being
                      > used.

                      According to Giovanni DiPlano Carpini's description from the 13th
                      Century, Mongol yurts had *felt* doors. He also noted that once a red
                      colored yurt was built that cold hold 2000 people, and that yurts had
                      various uses, sizes, and modes of transport.

                      Also this statement is often used to describe the differences between
                      ancient and modern yurts:
                      "During ancient times people used felt shutters, lifting it up to open
                      or close, which acted as a door. Modern nomads began to have wooden doors."

                      Orderic.
                    • Rod Giffin
                      ... The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time, or even
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 11, 2007
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                        L.M. Kies wrote:
                        > Anyway, the point is that period Russians may not have found the yurt suitable for their climate. Or maybe they did.
                        > Maybe they hated the Mongols enough that they refused to use yurts. Or maybe they adopted them like they did spices, silks and light cavalry.
                        >
                        >
                        The more I thought about this, the more I become convinced that Russians
                        KNEW of the yurt, but did not as a general rule USE yurts all the time,
                        or even often. It was a common structure among many other people that
                        early Russians encountered, not only Mongols, to the South and East at
                        least. It was certainly known to them long before the Mongole
                        invasion. The only art examples I've ever seen though are a couple of
                        representations of the Byzantine Varangian Guard, from the 12th Century
                        which showed a yurt like structure in the painting (miniatures from
                        Ioannes Skylitzes, who's art is not an example of the craft at it's
                        finest. He was primarily a writer).

                        This is the thing though. It's unlikely from a practical point of view
                        that a Mongolian style yurt would have been popular at all in the Kiev,
                        Novgorod, Tver, Moscow or other north Western regions at any rate, not
                        just from a weather point of view. We're talking a region of true
                        boreal forest here, very nearly a rain forest of mixed underbrush and
                        conifers that existed all the way to the Urals. (And largely still
                        does.) It would make yurt moving rather difficult, and a felt yurt
                        would quickly wick water. They were built for dry climates without a
                        lot of forestation, where nomadic herders lived. And why would you want
                        to drag your house along with you, with all that wood around? Just
                        leave it and make another further down the road.

                        > You may make up your own mind on the issue. I'm still on the fence... a lattice fence, arranged in a circle about 12 feet in diameter, with red rafters and a beautiful red door... on a wagon... ;-)
                        Ok, so the cool factor of that picture just about does it for me. I'm
                        almost POSITIVE that I saw at least one period painting that depicted a
                        yurt (period although fairly late period). Tents in general are
                        somewhat rare in period art though, and I wasn't looking for tents and
                        yurts. It's just that I have this almost positive feeling that I did
                        see one in at least one period painting.

                        And there's one other factor to consider. That is the C part of the
                        SCA. The C part is where we get to experiment and have some fun with
                        the history. So a early Rus merchant goes wondering...South East along
                        the Silk Road, encounters some Turkic peoples and lives with them for a
                        while, picks up some ideas like yurts. That kind of stuff actually
                        happened all the time, especially to people with Viking origins, so it's
                        not all that far fetched.

                        Orderic.
                      • Lente
                        okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the world s tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from the inner mongolia
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 12, 2007
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                          okay somewhat unrelated, the link below is about the marriage of the
                          world's tallest man, but it is a big hoopla in China since he is from
                          the inner mongolia region. Anyway go check out the slideshow link on the
                          left and in some of the pictures you will see for part of the ceremony
                          they used a small yurt on a wagon. very neat looking.

                          > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070712/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_china_tallest

                          Kathws
                        • Shannon Anderson
                          I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60 wide silks. Now, I m trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I m sure) before
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                            I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure) before heading "home" to Pennsic.

                            I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.

                            This the closest I've found to anything even remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my persona date within the Slavic world. It probably doesn't even count because the story is German, I think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

                            This might be a lost cause. All vague references to waist created with anything other than a belt seem to be Western influence, later period.

                            Margarita


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                          • L.M. Kies
                            Margarita, poklon ot Sofya! ... Congratulations! ... Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                              Margarita, poklon ot Sofya!

                              >
                              >I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a yard 60" wide silks.

                              Congratulations!

                              >I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated O ... c. 1385, Prague. ...wearing a dress that very
                              >clearly has lacing up the front and is fitted.... Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any other
                              >types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's dress?

                              Well, you might recall that recent discussion of the Izyaslavl/Toroptsa dress/svita/navershnik/jacket. It has a waist seam and a slightly gathered short skirt. So that would be *something* suggesting a different type of fitting in 12-13th cent. Rus women's dress.

                              But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful, figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost cause.
                              I just gave mine to my sister. :-P

                              Sofya

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                              Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                              "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Sfandra
                              ... LOL! That s so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one cotehardie to my sister too! --Sfandra ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                >
                                > But not actually fitted, not laced. No graceful,
                                > figure-hugging hourglass cotehardies. That's a lost
                                > cause.
                                > I just gave mine to my sister. :-P
                                >
                                > Sofya
                                >

                                LOL! That's so funny, I gave my one kirtle and one
                                cotehardie to my sister too!

                                --Sfandra

                                ******************
                                Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                                KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                                Haus Von Drakenklaue
                                Kingdom of the East
                                ******************
                                Never 'pearl' your butt.



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                              • Marilee Humason
                                I am afraid you aren t going to find anything because the idea was a static figure,no shape. Everyone looked the same and women were evil according to the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                  I am afraid you aren't going to find anything because
                                  the idea was a "static" figure,no shape. Everyone
                                  looked the same and women were "evil" according to the
                                  religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                                  any way. That is also why they were secluded in the
                                  later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                                  other than their husband and immediate family, they
                                  were not to be trusted! Gotta love religions mostly
                                  created by men!
                                  Anastasia
                                  --- Shannon Anderson <kitonlove@...> wrote:

                                  > I just lucked out at a great fabric sale... $5 a
                                  > yard 60" wide silks. Now, I'm trying to get some
                                  > dresses cranked out (as are many of you, I'm sure)
                                  > before heading "home" to Pennsic.
                                  >
                                  > I have found this very nice figure in an illuminated
                                  > O from the "Master of the Willehalm Romance: The
                                  > Meeting of Malifer and Penthesilea" by Wolfram von
                                  > Eschenbach c. 1385, Prague. Penthesilea is wearing a
                                  > dress that very clearly has lacing up the front and
                                  > is fitted.
                                  >
                                  > This the closest I've found to anything even
                                  > remotely not-a-drapey-tunic within 100 years of my
                                  > persona date within the Slavic world. It probably
                                  > doesn't even count because the story is German, I
                                  > think. Does anyone have *anything* that suggests any
                                  > other types of fitting in Rus 12-13th cent. women's
                                  > dress?
                                  >
                                  > This might be a lost cause. All vague references to
                                  > waist created with anything other than a belt seem
                                  > to be Western influence, later period.
                                  >
                                  > Margarita
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet
                                  > in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                  > removed]
                                  >
                                  >


                                  Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                                • L.M. Kies
                                  ... I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                    > women were "evil" according to the
                                    >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                                    >any way.

                                    I was always under the impression that such severe attitudes about women were confined to the rantings of monastic extremists, and not truly representative of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens were allowed to show their hair and women wore all sorts of pretty, tempting things.

                                    And while Russian garments are often described as "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?

                                    When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter the Great may have trouble evaluating "old fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits without imposing their own biases and expectations.

                                    >That is also why they were secluded in the
                                    >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                                    >other than their husband and immediate family

                                    Actually, only the very upper levels of late period Russian society practiced the seclusion of the terem. They were the only ones with houses big enough to shut away the women. Although the women weren't really shut away. They had an important role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and networking with the women of other noble families. Politics was all about family connections, and it was the women who made the marriages that created those family connections. And if you read the Domostroi carefully, you will see that the "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to supervise her servants and staff - including men, and there are other examples of the role of women in the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact to some extent with men outside their "immediate family".

                                    So the seclusion of women could hardly be a religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't follow it perfectly.

                                    Just some thoughts,

                                    Sofya

                                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                    Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                    http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                    "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
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                                  • Marilee Humason
                                    Well, this is based on the books I have read about the religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                      Well, this is based on the books I have read about the
                                      religion as it relates to my persona, who is a 16th
                                      century Russian/Moscow noblewoman. Not to be confused
                                      with peasants or people in out laying areas where they
                                      are much less strict.
                                      Also the dresses are shapeless because I was 8 months
                                      pregnant and wearing the same dress I always wore and
                                      some people didn't know I was pregnant!
                                      I agree with the assessment from the Domostroi but if
                                      you read Olearius he talks about the great privaledge
                                      it was to actually meet the Boyars wife as they were
                                      not allowed out.
                                      And yes I do mean upper class, but then we in the
                                      Society are supposed to be creating noblemen. What we
                                      can actually create is not going to be purely period,
                                      it is going to be an SCA version of Period.
                                      Anastasia
                                      --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

                                      > > women were "evil" according to the
                                      > >religion, so they weren't allowed to "tempt" men in
                                      > >any way.
                                      >
                                      > I was always under the impression that such severe
                                      > attitudes about women were confined to the rantings
                                      > of monastic extremists, and not truly representative
                                      > of Russian culture as a whole. After all, maidens
                                      > were allowed to show their hair and women wore all
                                      > sorts of pretty, tempting things.
                                      >
                                      > And while Russian garments are often described as
                                      > "static" by authors, I find it much easier to move
                                      > in them than my old fitted kirtle, or my Elizabethan
                                      > bodice. So whose clothing is actually static?
                                      >
                                      > When cut correctly, I think Russian clothing is
                                      > rather graceful, and not "shapeless". But it's not
                                      > surprising that authors who've been indoctrinated
                                      > into Western-style clothing and modern tayloring
                                      > techniques and the benefits of the reforms of Peter
                                      > the Great may have trouble evaluating "old
                                      > fashioned" Eastern-style clothing on its own merits
                                      > without imposing their own biases and expectations.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >That is also why they were secluded in the
                                      > >later centuries and not allowed to be with any man
                                      > >other than their husband and immediate family
                                      >
                                      > Actually, only the very upper levels of late period
                                      > Russian society practiced the seclusion of the
                                      > terem. They were the only ones with houses big
                                      > enough to shut away the women. Although the women
                                      > weren't really shut away. They had an important
                                      > role to play in behind-the-scenes politics and
                                      > networking with the women of other noble families.
                                      > Politics was all about family connections, and it
                                      > was the women who made the marriages that created
                                      > those family connections. And if you read the
                                      > Domostroi carefully, you will see that the
                                      > "secluded" mistress of the house was expected to
                                      > supervise her servants and staff - including men,
                                      > and there are other examples of the role of women in
                                      > the Domostroi that clearly expect them to interact
                                      > to some extent with men outside their "immediate
                                      > family".
                                      >
                                      > So the seclusion of women could hardly be a
                                      > religious/moral requirement if less than 5% of
                                      > society could attempt it, and even that 5% didn't
                                      > follow it perfectly.
                                      >
                                      > Just some thoughts,
                                      >
                                      > Sofya
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                      > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                      > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                      > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                      >
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                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >


                                      Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                                    • Shannon Anderson
                                      I like the Russian silhouette, it s comfortable and natural enough. Why I m looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                        I like the Russian silhouette, it's comfortable and natural enough. Why I'm looking for something more fitted is a) there was only enough velvet left on the bolt I wanted for something skimpier and b) there's this European dress I've wanted to make for a long time and I was hoping to find it's Russian "cousin."

                                        I may just make the jacket we've been discussing with my remaining fabric, to go over a more typical dress.

                                        Thanks for the help,

                                        Margarita


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                                      • DOUGLAS PETROFF
                                        And please don t forget this all came about after the Mongolian period. The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 14, 2007
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                                          And please don't forget this all came about after the Mongolian period.
                                          The far eastern influence seems to play an important part. Sergius B
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