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Inital information Matejko's time

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  • magdalenag56
    My initial research into whether Poland fell under the Victorian mentality has reminded me that this particular century was a difficult one for Poland. This
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 1 1:29 PM
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      My initial research into whether Poland fell under the Victorian
      mentality has reminded me that this particular century was a difficult
      one for Poland. This was after the partition that wiped Poland off of
      the map, literally. Poland was divided up between, German, Russia and
      the Austro-Hungarian empire. It seems that the Austro-Hungarian empire
      treated its Polish citizens better that the other two powers. But they
      were still seen as an unwanted ruler.

      And what I have read so far tells of resistance and a fighting to
      regain independence. There seemed to be three options for the Polish
      people; resistance, assimilation or emmigration. This was a time of
      rising patriotism for Poland while at the same time the "Powers that
      Be" were doing their best to supppress the Polish culture such as not
      allowing the teaching of the Polish language? Although Victoria's
      tentacles reached into the Russian and German royal families I found no
      mention of Victorian thought or customs reaching into Poland except
      where people decided to assimilate to save themselves and their
      families. While those who assimilated may have accepted Victorian
      thinking, Matejko was not one of them. I found one mention of him being
      involved in at least one situation of resistance fighting. It doesn't
      say to me that Matejko would allow false interepretation into his
      drawings. He wanted to be historical and accurate. But as I said I
      have only begun my research. If anyone comes across any sources of
      information on this topic pro or con, please feel free to forward them
      to me with the bibliography and/or references.

      I believe Turnau makes reference in her work to Matejko because he was
      so accurate in his art. If Matejko is not reliable and Turnau refers to
      him or makes mention to him (and yes, I do have much of Turnau's work
      on clothing which are also highly regarded) then the logical
      progression is that Turnau is not reliable. How many people are willing
      to swallow this bit of logic?

      It's time for people to recognize the error in this line of thinking
      and using it as some kind of measuring tool. That's where the disbelief
      comes from. Having to take a second look at what we believe to be
      correct and accepting that just possibly we aren't corrrect in all
      situations. There was more going on in the 19th Century than the
      Victorian Era.

      Magdalena Gdanska
    • wheezul@canby.com
      ... I have found some German and French work that rivals work done by modern scholars. Each work should stand on its own merit in my opinion. A good example
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 1 11:13 PM
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        >
        >
        > It's time for people to recognize the error in this line of thinking
        > and using it as some kind of measuring tool. That's where the disbelief
        > comes from. Having to take a second look at what we believe to be
        > correct and accepting that just possibly we aren't corrrect in all
        > situations. There was more going on in the 19th Century than the
        > Victorian Era.
        >
        > Magdalena Gdanska

        I have found some German and French work that rivals work done by modern
        scholars. Each work should stand on its own merit in my opinion.

        A good example is Norris, who took a really bad rap with the purple
        raritarian feather article. While it seems the author of the article
        wanted to rightly point out variances between the original artwork and the
        redrawings, it had the net effect of over reaction. The good thing is
        that people started to look for better archaeological and sources, but the
        down side was the loss of discussion about his interpretations and further
        investigation. It kind of boils down to the question of if we should
        review and revise the work done before, or just ignore it.

        A case in point might be the "oriental surcoat" that Norris says came back
        from the crusades. I have been told point blank by people that Norris
        "just made that up". Further study shows that he did indeed have a
        source, and the image, at least, was not a fanciful creation. It appears
        that he redrew several of Viollet-le-Duc's drawings. In Viollet-le-Duc's
        original drawing, he cites the source as sculpture in Ve'zelay, which he
        was responsible for restoring. Currently I have a friend in France who is
        a 12th century re-enactor who has promised to go to Ve'zelay to take a
        look. I have my doubts about this being a garment, but I won't be
        satisfied until the mystery is solved.

        I think it would be interesting to write an article about 19th century
        costume and medieval historians. This was the life's work and passion for
        some of them, and I think it might be useful to have a guide of their
        work.

        Katherine Barich
      • Tim Nalley
        That s the funny thing about Norris, its a mixed bag...mostly I use his books for their illustrative value and pattern value for newbies and new costumers.
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 2 6:06 AM
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          That's the funny thing about Norris, its a mixed
          bag...mostly I use his books for their illustrative
          value and pattern value for newbies and new costumers.
          OTOH, while I've heard many dissing his books and the
          drawings/patterns within, I also tend to see people's
          "research" very closely resembling these same patterns
          and looks. I'm not dissing anyone, I'm just noting a
          remarkable simmilarity.
          Then again, I also use the Medieval Tailors
          Assistant for the same uses, though it has much wider
          acceptance, especially withing the Laurelate, for
          beginning and intermediiate costumers. Maybe its a
          utility and application question, as much as being a
          historical /artifactual one?
          'dok



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        • magdalenag56
          I agree that each resource should stand on it s own merit but that won t happen until people give up on long held beliefs. I have read that Matejko would put
          Message 4 of 4 , Jul 2 4:12 PM
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            I agree that each resource should stand on it's own merit but that
            won't happen until people give up on long held beliefs.

            I have read that Matejko would put people in historical paintings of
            battles who were not at those battles to make polical statements. Or he
            would use the faces of himself (Stanczyk the jester) or contemporaties
            in paintings. This could be seen by critics as Matejko not being
            accurate. What painter does not do this?

            My first "resource" was Racinet's book. Even at that level of
            inexperience I could see how bizarre and inaccurate alot of those
            drawings were. It served it's purpose to make me look further. Braun
            and Schneider is IMHO slightly more accurate than Racinet but still
            very Victorian.

            The SCA is supposed to be educational. If it is not, then it is nothing
            more than LARP. And being educational, does that cease when you become
            a Laurel? For some Laurel is the final achievement. Unfortunately that
            is the appearance some, and I repeat some, not all, laurels have given
            the rest of us, that once you've become a laurel you need learn no more
            (because you now know everything). I will go out on a limb and say that
            I would not seek out a book merely because the laurelate approves of
            it. If it were for instance, a well documented book or if it were a
            book with wide reaching information,that would make me look for it.

            New resources are coming out of Poland every day. Things long hidden
            are now being donated to museums. As much as I would like to, I cannot
            afford a trip to Poland at the moment. Those of you who can, please
            share with the rest of us.

            Magdalena Gdanska
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