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Izyaslavl' dress

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  • Kseniia Smolnianina
    A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of the 13th century Izyaslavl (Russia) dress and posted a picture on his LiveJournal here:
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
      A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of the 13th century
      Izyaslavl' (Russia) dress and posted a picture on his LiveJournal
      here: http://ms-reenactor.livejournal.com/2845.html His post is in
      Russian, but basically he explains his methodology - for example, the
      original extant garment does not seem to be pieced together the way he
      did it, but he was trying to be efficient by using up some fabric
      scraps.

      I don't know if I agree with everything he did - the bottom hem, for
      example, doesn't resemble that in the extant dress, but I think he did
      a nice job.

      Here's a scan of the original (scroll down):
      http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=28252 (Somebody took this
      directly from "Arkeologia: Drevniaia Rus'. Byt' i kul'tura." Not
      me!)

      --Kseniia

      --
      **********************************
      Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
      Barony of Three Mountains
      Kingdom of An Tir
    • Tim Nalley
      Interesting Live joural entries. Just keep in mind that an artifact is only one version of how a thing was done, and maybe not the best or most common way. I
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
        Interesting Live joural entries. Just keep in mind
        that an artifact is only one version of how a thing
        was done, and maybe not the best or most common way. I
        always try to temper my thoughts with te standard of
        "what would this______look like if people everywhere
        had to handsew copies for 20 to 40 years?"
        'dok
        --- Kseniia Smolnianina <kseniia@...> wrote:

        > A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of
        > the 13th century
        > Izyaslavl' (Russia) dress and posted a picture on
        > his LiveJournal
        > here: http://ms-reenactor.livejournal.com/2845.html
        > His post is in
        > Russian, but basically he explains his methodology -
        > for example, the
        > original extant garment does not seem to be pieced
        > together the way he
        > did it, but he was trying to be efficient by using
        > up some fabric
        > scraps.
        >
        > I don't know if I agree with everything he did - the
        > bottom hem, for
        > example, doesn't resemble that in the extant dress,
        > but I think he did
        > a nice job.
        >
        > Here's a scan of the original (scroll down):
        > http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=28252
        > (Somebody took this
        > directly from "Arkeologia: Drevniaia Rus'. Byt' i
        > kul'tura." Not
        > me!)
        >
        > --Kseniia
        >
        > --
        > **********************************
        > Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
        > Barony of Three Mountains
        > Kingdom of An Tir
        >




        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
        with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
        http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
      • Kseniia Smolnianina
        Of course. :) I should have clarified - my comment was coming from the point of view of recreating that exact piece, which is personally what I m trying to
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
          Of course. :)

          I should have clarified - my comment was coming from the point of view of
          recreating that exact piece, which is personally what I'm trying to do.
          *Then* I'll experiment with alternative styles, etc. How else will I know
          how much handsewing copies for 20-40 years in that particular way might
          suck?

          Incidentally, can you (or anyone here on SIG) describe or show what is meant
          by "branaia tekhnika"? I've never found a good explanation...

          --Kseniia

          On 6/28/07, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
          >
          > Interesting Live joural entries. Just keep in mind
          > that an artifact is only one version of how a thing
          > was done, and maybe not the best or most common way. I
          > always try to temper my thoughts with te standard of
          > "what would this______look like if people everywhere
          > had to handsew copies for 20 to 40 years?"
          > 'dok
          >
          > --- Kseniia Smolnianina <kseniia@... <kseniia%40gmail.com>> wrote:
          >
          > > A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of
          > > the 13th century
          > > Izyaslavl' (Russia) dress and posted a picture on
          > > his LiveJournal
          > > here: http://ms-reenactor.livejournal.com/2845.html
          > > His post is in
          > > Russian, but basically he explains his methodology -
          > > for example, the
          > > original extant garment does not seem to be pieced
          > > together the way he
          > > did it, but he was trying to be efficient by using
          > > up some fabric
          > > scraps.
          > >
          > > I don't know if I agree with everything he did - the
          > > bottom hem, for
          > > example, doesn't resemble that in the extant dress,
          > > but I think he did
          > > a nice job.
          > >
          > > Here's a scan of the original (scroll down):
          > > http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=28252
          > > (Somebody took this
          > > directly from "Arkeologia: Drevniaia Rus'. Byt' i
          > > kul'tura." Not
          > > me!)
          > >
          > > --Kseniia
          > >
          > > --
          > > **********************************
          > > Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
          > > Barony of Three Mountains
          > > Kingdom of An Tir
          > >
          >
          > __________________________________________________________
          > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
          > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
          > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
          >
          >
          >



          --
          **********************************
          Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
          Barony of Three Mountains
          Kingdom of An Tir


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
          I ve been examining that page of the Drevniaia Rus: Byt Kultur and still am not sure if that was an average dress of the age. IMHP it seems awfully short,
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
            I've been examining that page of the Drevniaia Rus: Byt Kultur and still am
            not sure if that was an "average" dress of the age. IMHP it seems awfully
            short, maybe it was for a young lady versus older...not sure.

            Their re-daction of the pattern looks good and the tablet weaving and
            handstitching look very, very nice. The closeup of the neckline shows fine,
            nice stitches. Well done, I wish I could read some of the commentary on the
            lj to see what everyone else was saying but my russian is very minimal.

            Ianuk

            On 6/28/07, Kseniia Smolnianina <kseniia@...> wrote:
            >
            > A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of the 13th century
            > Izyaslavl' (Russia) dress and posted a picture on his LiveJournal
            > here: http://ms-reenactor.livejournal.com/2845.html His post is in
            > Russian, but basically he explains his methodology - for example, the
            > original extant garment does not seem to be pieced together the way he
            > did it, but he was trying to be efficient by using up some fabric
            > scraps.
            >
            > I don't know if I agree with everything he did - the bottom hem, for
            > example, doesn't resemble that in the extant dress, but I think he did
            > a nice job.
            >
            > Here's a scan of the original (scroll down):
            > http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=28252 (Somebody took this
            > directly from "Arkeologia: Drevniaia Rus'. Byt' i kul'tura." Not
            > me!)
            >
            > --Kseniia
            >
            > --
            > **********************************
            > Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
            > Barony of Three Mountains
            > Kingdom of An Tir
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kseniia Smolnianina
            According to the written description, It is difficult to judge the length of the dress. Only scientific restoration can give a full impression not only about
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
              According to the written description, "It is difficult to judge the length
              of the dress. Only scientific restoration can give a full impression not
              only about the technology of its creation, but also about its shape and
              size. If the proportions of the pieced-together dress are generally
              correct, then the length reaches to the knees."

              From what I understand, this dress would have been worn over a longer dress
              or rubakha. There is some evidence that shorter dresses like this existed
              (again, over a longer dress). See, for example, the women in the background
              of this painting: http://www.wco.ru/icons/Icons/N1-012Z3.jpg I'm sure
              Sofya could dredge up more. :)

              As for the comments, he's mainly clarifying why he put it together the way
              he did. For example, there's some discussion as to why it was necessary to
              attach a separate skirt to the bodice instead of just gathering a
              single-piece dress at the waist, and he clarifies that that's how this
              particular extant garment was constructed.

              --Kseniia



              On 6/28/07, Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
              >
              > I've been examining that page of the Drevniaia Rus: Byt Kultur and still
              > am
              > not sure if that was an "average" dress of the age. IMHP it seems awfully
              > short, maybe it was for a young lady versus older...not sure.
              >
              > Their re-daction of the pattern looks good and the tablet weaving and
              > handstitching look very, very nice. The closeup of the neckline shows
              > fine,
              > nice stitches. Well done, I wish I could read some of the commentary on
              > the
              > lj to see what everyone else was saying but my russian is very minimal.
              >
              > Ianuk
              >
              >
              > On 6/28/07, Kseniia Smolnianina <kseniia@... <kseniia%40gmail.com>>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of the 13th century
              > > Izyaslavl' (Russia) dress and posted a picture on his LiveJournal
              > > here: http://ms-reenactor.livejournal.com/2845.html His post is in
              > > Russian, but basically he explains his methodology - for example, the
              > > original extant garment does not seem to be pieced together the way he
              > > did it, but he was trying to be efficient by using up some fabric
              > > scraps.
              > >
              > > I don't know if I agree with everything he did - the bottom hem, for
              > > example, doesn't resemble that in the extant dress, but I think he did
              > > a nice job.
              > >
              > > Here's a scan of the original (scroll down):
              > > http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=28252 (Somebody took this
              > > directly from "Arkeologia: Drevniaia Rus'. Byt' i kul'tura." Not
              > > me!)
              > >
              > > --Kseniia
              > >
              > > --
              > > **********************************
              > > Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
              > > Barony of Three Mountains
              > > Kingdom of An Tir
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >



              --
              **********************************
              Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
              Barony of Three Mountains
              Kingdom of An Tir


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
              Ooh, thank you for the translation. I think I was more confused by the renditions on the top right corner of the page than the garment for the length. In the
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                Ooh, thank you for the translation. I think I was more confused by the
                renditions on the top right corner of the page than the garment for the
                length. In the sketches it does not look like it goes to the knees. I'm
                going to assume then that is what Sofya calls the navershnik. Hmmm...I
                might have to work on one like that pattern then. I know I shouldn't trust
                archeologists renditions but those always seemed so short. Plus it gives me
                more of an excuse to do some tablet weaving. Thank you again.

                Ianuk

                On 6/28/07, Kseniia Smolnianina <kseniia@...> wrote:
                >
                > According to the written description, "It is difficult to judge the
                > length
                > of the dress. Only scientific restoration can give a full impression not
                > only about the technology of its creation, but also about its shape and
                > size. If the proportions of the pieced-together dress are generally
                > correct, then the length reaches to the knees."
                >
                > From what I understand, this dress would have been worn over a longer
                > dress
                > or rubakha. There is some evidence that shorter dresses like this existed
                > (again, over a longer dress). See, for example, the women in the
                > background
                > of this painting: http://www.wco.ru/icons/Icons/N1-012Z3.jpg I'm sure
                > Sofya could dredge up more. :)
                >
                > As for the comments, he's mainly clarifying why he put it together the way
                > he did. For example, there's some discussion as to why it was necessary to
                > attach a separate skirt to the bodice instead of just gathering a
                > single-piece dress at the waist, and he clarifies that that's how this
                > particular extant garment was constructed.
                >
                > --Kseniia
                >
                > On 6/28/07, Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...<lady.ianuk%40gmail.com>>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I've been examining that page of the Drevniaia Rus: Byt Kultur and still
                > > am
                > > not sure if that was an "average" dress of the age. IMHP it seems
                > awfully
                > > short, maybe it was for a young lady versus older...not sure.
                > >
                > > Their re-daction of the pattern looks good and the tablet weaving and
                > > handstitching look very, very nice. The closeup of the neckline shows
                > > fine,
                > > nice stitches. Well done, I wish I could read some of the commentary on
                > > the
                > > lj to see what everyone else was saying but my russian is very minimal.
                > >
                > > Ianuk
                > >
                > >
                > > On 6/28/07, Kseniia Smolnianina <kseniia@... <kseniia%40gmail.com><kseniia%40gmail.com>>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of the 13th century
                > > > Izyaslavl' (Russia) dress and posted a picture on his LiveJournal
                > > > here: http://ms-reenactor.livejournal.com/2845.html His post is in
                > > > Russian, but basically he explains his methodology - for example, the
                > > > original extant garment does not seem to be pieced together the way he
                > > > did it, but he was trying to be efficient by using up some fabric
                > > > scraps.
                > > >
                > > > I don't know if I agree with everything he did - the bottom hem, for
                > > > example, doesn't resemble that in the extant dress, but I think he did
                > > > a nice job.
                > > >
                > > > Here's a scan of the original (scroll down):
                > > > http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=28252 (Somebody took this
                > > > directly from "Arkeologia: Drevniaia Rus'. Byt' i kul'tura." Not
                > > > me!)
                > > >
                > > > --Kseniia
                > > >
                > > > --
                > > > **********************************
                > > > Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
                > > > Barony of Three Mountains
                > > > Kingdom of An Tir
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > --
                > **********************************
                > Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
                > Barony of Three Mountains
                > Kingdom of An Tir
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
                Sorry, I mistyped...the upper LEFT drawings... Ianuk ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                  Sorry, I mistyped...the upper LEFT drawings...

                  Ianuk

                  On 6/28/07, Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ooh, thank you for the translation. I think I was more confused by the
                  > renditions on the top right corner of the page than the garment for the
                  > length. In the sketches it does not look like it goes to the knees. I'm
                  > going to assume then that is what Sofya calls the navershnik. Hmmm...I
                  > might have to work on one like that pattern then. I know I shouldn't trust
                  > archeologists renditions but those always seemed so short. Plus it gives me
                  > more of an excuse to do some tablet weaving. Thank you again.
                  >
                  > Ianuk
                  >
                  > On 6/28/07, Kseniia Smolnianina <kseniia@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > According to the written description, "It is difficult to judge the
                  > > length
                  > > of the dress. Only scientific restoration can give a full impression not
                  > > only about the technology of its creation, but also about its shape and
                  > > size. If the proportions of the pieced-together dress are generally
                  > > correct, then the length reaches to the knees."
                  > >
                  > > From what I understand, this dress would have been worn over a longer
                  > > dress
                  > > or rubakha. There is some evidence that shorter dresses like this
                  > > existed
                  > > (again, over a longer dress). See, for example, the women in the
                  > > background
                  > > of this painting: http://www.wco.ru/icons/Icons/N1-012Z3.jpg I'm sure
                  > > Sofya could dredge up more. :)
                  > >
                  > > As for the comments, he's mainly clarifying why he put it together the
                  > > way
                  > > he did. For example, there's some discussion as to why it was necessary
                  > > to
                  > > attach a separate skirt to the bodice instead of just gathering a
                  > > single-piece dress at the waist, and he clarifies that that's how this
                  > > particular extant garment was constructed.
                  > >
                  > > --Kseniia
                  > >
                  > > On 6/28/07, Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...<lady.ianuk%40gmail.com>>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I've been examining that page of the Drevniaia Rus: Byt Kultur and
                  > > still
                  > > > am
                  > > > not sure if that was an "average" dress of the age. IMHP it seems
                  > > awfully
                  > > > short, maybe it was for a young lady versus older...not sure.
                  > > >
                  > > > Their re-daction of the pattern looks good and the tablet weaving and
                  > > > handstitching look very, very nice. The closeup of the neckline shows
                  > > > fine,
                  > > > nice stitches. Well done, I wish I could read some of the commentary
                  > > on
                  > > > the
                  > > > lj to see what everyone else was saying but my russian is very
                  > > minimal.
                  > > >
                  > > > Ianuk
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On 6/28/07, Kseniia Smolnianina <kseniia@...<kseniia%40gmail.com><kseniia%40gmail.com>>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of the 13th century
                  > > > > Izyaslavl' (Russia) dress and posted a picture on his LiveJournal
                  > > > > here: http://ms-reenactor.livejournal.com/2845.html His post is in
                  > > > > Russian, but basically he explains his methodology - for example,
                  > > the
                  > > > > original extant garment does not seem to be pieced together the way
                  > > he
                  > > > > did it, but he was trying to be efficient by using up some fabric
                  > > > > scraps.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I don't know if I agree with everything he did - the bottom hem, for
                  > > > > example, doesn't resemble that in the extant dress, but I think he
                  > > did
                  > > > > a nice job.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Here's a scan of the original (scroll down):
                  > > > > http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=28252 (Somebody took this
                  > > > > directly from "Arkeologia: Drevniaia Rus'. Byt' i kul'tura." Not
                  > > > > me!)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --Kseniia
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --
                  > > > > **********************************
                  > > > > Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
                  > > > > Barony of Three Mountains
                  > > > > Kingdom of An Tir
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > **********************************
                  > > Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
                  > > Barony of Three Mountains
                  > > Kingdom of An Tir
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kseniia Smolnianina
                  The upper left drawings (#1-2) are intended to represent clothing from a 14th century icon at the Tretyakovskaya Gallery. Drawings #3-5 depict pictures from
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                    The upper left drawings (#1-2) are intended to represent clothing from a
                    14th century icon at the Tretyakovskaya Gallery. Drawings #3-5 depict
                    pictures from 14th century illuminated manuscripts (and are men, obviously -
                    I think those sketches go with a different part of the chapter).

                    Just for reference [text in brackets is my own commentary]:

                    Plate 68: City woman's dress 11th-13th century (compiled by M.A. Saburova)

                    #1-5 - [see above]
                    #6 - dress from the excavation of M. K. Karger in Izyslavl'. Beginning of
                    13th c.
                    #7 - stitched fine gathers on the dress from Izyaslavl' [the gathers were
                    held in place by 4 lines of horizontal running stitch]
                    #8 - gold-fabric band at the waist of the dress from Izyaslavl' [the gathers
                    were covered by this band, which I assume we'd call cloth-of-gold; the band
                    is edged in a silk thread twisted in the form of a rope]
                    #9-10 - examples of seams on ancient dresses [#9 is basically a forward
                    running stitch then a backward running stitch that fills in the gaps of the
                    forward running stitch; #10 shows how seams were finished on one dress]
                    #11 or 12 - [Well, there is no #11 or 12 according to the drawings - it's
                    that rectangle with the geometric patterns; the caption labels it #11; the
                    text labels it #12.] "Voshva" with "brannyy ornament" from Toroptse [Note:
                    if someone else could explain this, I'd be very happy!]
                    **
                    Hope this is of interest! There's more stuff on that website, including
                    more scans of pages from Arkheologia: Drevniaia Rus'. Byt' i kul'tura.

                    Corrections and/or clarifications greatly appreciated.

                    --Kseniia

                    On 6/28/07, Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Sorry, I mistyped...the upper LEFT drawings...
                    >
                    > Ianuk
                    >
                    >
                    > On 6/28/07, Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...<lady.ianuk%40gmail.com>>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Ooh, thank you for the translation. I think I was more confused by the
                    > > renditions on the top right corner of the page than the garment for the
                    > > length. In the sketches it does not look like it goes to the knees. I'm
                    > > going to assume then that is what Sofya calls the navershnik. Hmmm...I
                    > > might have to work on one like that pattern then. I know I shouldn't
                    > trust
                    > > archeologists renditions but those always seemed so short. Plus it gives
                    > me
                    > > more of an excuse to do some tablet weaving. Thank you again.
                    > >
                    > > Ianuk
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    **********************************
                    Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
                    Barony of Three Mountains
                    Kingdom of An Tir


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • L.M. Kies
                    ... I ve also had trouble figuring out where it fits in compared to the typical items of clothing discussed for this period. I ve put it in my section on
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                      >I've been examining that page of the Drevniaia Rus: Byt Kultur and still am
                      >not sure if that was an "average" dress of the age. IMHP it seems awfully
                      >short, maybe it was for a young lady versus older...not sure.

                      I've also had trouble figuring out where it fits in compared to the "typical" items of clothing discussed for this period. I've put it in my section on Layer 2 for now - since Kolchin interpretted it as a short garment meant to be worn over longer dresses. As Kseniia points out, Kolchin admits that the actual length of the original was difficult to interpret due to its state of preservation.

                      For those of you who still have no idea what we're talking about, my sketch based on Kolchin can be seen here:
                      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Garb/woman2.jpg

                      I'm starting to think that the svitas may have been made with a separate piece of fabric for the skirt, rather than cut like the rubakha/sorochka. It would make it very easy to do the "open to the waist" early period version of the svita this way. And this method of construction is used on the Partizan webpage.
                      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html

                      Sofya



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kseniia Smolnianina
                      The gentleman from Estonia actually calls this dress a svita. He says at the beginning of his post (loosely translated!): An unfinished kaftan was lying
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                        The gentleman from Estonia actually calls this dress a svita. He says at
                        the beginning of his post (loosely translated!):

                        "An unfinished kaftan was lying there. I took it and re-sewed it into a
                        dress (svita) in a shape similar to the one women's dress from the 13th
                        century found in Izyaslavl'."

                        Now, just 'cause this guy *calls* it a svita doesn't mean it *is* a svita.
                        But I thought I'd throw that out there.


                        --Kseniia

                        On 6/28/07, L.M. Kies <lkies@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm starting to think that the svitas may have been made with a separate
                        > piece of fabric for the skirt, rather than cut like the rubakha/sorochka. It
                        > would make it very easy to do the "open to the waist" early period version
                        > of the svita this way. And this method of construction is used on the
                        > Partizan webpage.
                        > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html>
                        >
                        > Sofya
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > _
                        > _,___
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                        --
                        **********************************
                        Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
                        Barony of Three Mountains
                        Kingdom of An Tir


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • L.M. Kies
                        ... Maybe it s a navershnik or maybe its a jacket ... It s a question of sleeves... and the remains of the original dress shown in Kolchin don t show much of
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                          >
                          >I'm going to assume then that is what Sofya calls the navershnik.

                          Maybe it's a navershnik or maybe its a "jacket"...

                          It's a question of sleeves... and the remains of the original dress shown in Kolchin don't show much of the sleeves. And the description of the Toroptsa dress doesn't help - poor sleeve preservation there, too, apparently.

                          The drawings 1 & 2 on page 314, and drawing 13 on page 321 always looked to me like long-sleeves with trim on the upper arms and wrists - a pattern seen in period Russian art occasionally.
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/15th_cent_vladimir_boris_gleb_2.jpeg
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/vern56.jpg
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/vern67.jpg
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/nevski80.jpg

                          And I've always read that navershniki have short sleeves. But then again, the upper arm trim in Kolchin could be indicating the ends of short sleeves - garments basically the same as those shown in the icon that Kseniia linked.
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/14cNovgorodNativity.jpg

                          Anyway, that's why I have given these their own section at the bottom of "Layer 2" and tried not to express much of an opinion about how to categorize these dresses. [Hmmm. I thought I fixed that translation... *grumble, grumble* opening webpage files...]
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KWC2.html

                          Sofya






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                        • L.M. Kies
                          ... Another oops. Kolchin says explicitly that the Toropsta dress has well-preserved narrow wrist-length sleeves. That s what I get for answering emails when
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                            >It's a question of sleeves... and the remains of the original dress shown in Kolchin don't show much of the sleeves. And the >description of the Toroptsa dress doesn't help - poor sleeve preservation there, too, apparently.

                            Another oops. Kolchin says explicitly that the Toropsta dress has well-preserved narrow wrist-length sleeves.

                            That's what I get for answering emails when I should be getting ready for bed. ;-)

                            Sofya


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Rod Giffin
                            ... It s a method of weaving fabric with a repeating pattern woven in, but it s a bit more complex. I think I can explain it better this way. Branaia
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                              Kseniia Smolnianina wrote:
                              > ntally, can you (or anyone here on SIG) describe or show what is meant
                              > by "branaia tekhnika"? I've never found a good explanation...
                              >
                              It's a method of weaving fabric with a repeating pattern woven in, but
                              it's a bit more complex. I think I can explain it better this way.
                              Branaia tekhnika is the method of weaving branaia tkan, which is almost
                              like saying tartan cloth in English. Basically branaia tkan is a kind
                              of twill cloth woven in a pattern with two weft threads, similar to
                              method of weaving a Celtic tartan. The resulting pattern usually has a
                              herringbone type texture or a linear pattern within a pattern, and if
                              multiple thread colors are used, the pattern appears slightly different
                              on each side of the cloth.

                              Orderic.
                            • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
                              Right after I posted I looked about at Sofya s site and saw her interp of this. Thanks for the great discussion. I do have the entire Drevniaia Rus scanned
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 28, 2007
                                Right after I posted I looked about at Sofya's site and saw her interp of
                                this. Thanks for the great discussion. I do have the entire Drevniaia Rus
                                scanned if anyone needs information or a copy. Not sure if its small enough
                                to email over gmail or not.

                                Ianuk

                                On 6/28/07, L.M. Kies <lkies@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >It's a question of sleeves... and the remains of the original dress
                                > shown in Kolchin don't show much of the sleeves. And the >description of the
                                > Toroptsa dress doesn't help - poor sleeve preservation there, too,
                                > apparently.
                                >
                                > Another oops. Kolchin says explicitly that the Toropsta dress has
                                > well-preserved narrow wrist-length sleeves.
                                >
                                > That's what I get for answering emails when I should be getting ready for
                                > bed. ;-)
                                >
                                > Sofya
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • quokkaqueen
                                It s a small detail, and picky, but it will drive me insane until I say something. Riga is in Latvia. The capital of Estonia is Talinn. Feel better now. :)
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 30, 2007
                                  It's a small detail, and picky, but it will drive me insane until I
                                  say something.

                                  Riga is in Latvia. The capital of Estonia is Talinn.

                                  Feel better now. :)
                                  Asfridhr

                                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Kseniia Smolnianina" <kseniia@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A reenactor in Riga, Estonia, has made a version of the 13th century
                                  > Izyaslavl' (Russia) dress and posted a picture on his LiveJournal\
                                  <<snip>>
                                • Kseniia Smolnianina
                                  *hides under bed* I know that. I think my head was on backwards when I typed that. Highly embarrassed, --Kseniia ... -- **********************************
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 30, 2007
                                    *hides under bed* I know that. I think my head was on backwards when I
                                    typed that.

                                    Highly embarrassed,
                                    --Kseniia

                                    On 6/30/07, quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > It's a small detail, and picky, but it will drive me insane until I
                                    > say something.
                                    >
                                    > Riga is in Latvia. The capital of Estonia is Talinn.
                                    >
                                    > Feel better now. :)
                                    > Asfridhr
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    --
                                    **********************************
                                    Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
                                    Barony of Three Mountains
                                    Kingdom of An Tir


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