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Re[2]: Fwd: [sig] Cossack Martial Arts

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
    Greetings! ... My point is that even mid-19 century publications (manuals, actually) for Cossack lance referred to the typical Oriental-type shaft weapon: a
    Message 1 of 5 , May 28, 2007
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      Greetings!

      > Ok, I am not arguing with you about the relation of Poles to the
      > Stroganoffs or Don Cossacks. I was making a case for why the lance
      > in the picture purporting to be part of a 16th C. petty
      > noble/cossack's training is not easily dismissible. (So I was not
      > really trying to prove anything, expect the benefit of using the
      > evidence at hand) My point was that jousting (or larger point, use
      > of the couched lance in combat) was not limited to western use.
      My point is that even mid-19 century publications (manuals, actually) for Cossack lance referred to the typical Oriental-type shaft weapon: a simple cylindrical shaft was heeded for different parrying movements etc, impossible with the western-type regular jiusting lance, conical or simply balanced weight concentrated at the middle, for easier aiming while on horse. Notably, at the very same type even the Cossacks were trained in cutting techniques on the base of standard Western fencing manuals, with typical leg position and typical elbow-centered cutting movement (while, say, Shashka cutting requires rather a movementpattern involving equally the wrist, teh elbow and the shoulder). I think it is sufficient proof that the Cossacks, using the lance as, say, the Chinese did - with thrusts and swinging blows with the shaft - did not need to traing european-style jousting. They had saddles (actually, stirrups) totally inconvenient for a lance thrust, and were a typical light cavalry, relying on shooting and maneuvre than on regular charge.

      While - say - the Poles did need to train one, as their heavy and middle cavalry was rather Western-type than Oriental, so they really needed to wield a European lance, so THEY had all reasons to participate in jousting events at European tournaments.

      > To address your other comments below, A claim that Muscovites never
      > participated in Western-style jousting lists would not be correct
      > even though it was rare. A claim that the muscovite heavy cavalry
      > did not use the couched lance - it that is what you mean - I don't
      > buy that either. The Muscovites practiced horse archery but they
      > also had a heavy shock combat element that was very respected.
      Sorry, but you will need to refer to anything in proof of that. I have some vague reference to participating of teh Russians in teh pre-Mongol European tournaments. And I have plenty of sources stating that the "Muscovite" period was a turn to Oriental military ways.
      First of all I mean baron Herberstein, about miid-1500s, the Notes on the Muscovite Affairs, and he states that the Russians are mounted archers as their saddles do not provide firm sitting, with stirrups very high - which means any attempt to make a lance thrust will throw the rider backwards from the saddle. Such saddle construction is very typical to mounted archery, while the Western type saddles had their stirrups low, with rear arch high, just to suport a rider thrusting a spear. Herberstein also notes the other military articles the Muscovite riders wield: kisten (bassalyk), saber, and a bow. These are typical light cavalry items. And no wonder: most opponents had same light cavalry tactics, to be opposed with same. It was Poland that had some neighbors equipped Western-type, and some Easter-type. Russia had few prospective enemies with wester-type heavy cavalry, and lots of trouble with Krimean, Nogai etc nomad raiding parties, some of which were so big and - at the same time maneuvrable that they reached the modern Moscow region. So, another reason for jousting decline.

      > As far as the knees high and inconvenient saddle for jousting, sorry
      > to bring up the Lithuanian and Polish cavalry again but they used
      > exactly the same seat when they used the kopia, but maybe not when
      > they did western-style sport jousting. The Persians did not play
      ergm... we speak of the _light_ cavalry? And if we do, did they practice jousting with the heavy western shuttle-like spear? I am afraid it was invented just for the _Western_ heavy cavalry charge tactics.

      > with western Jousting, but they also had a superb heavy cavalry
      > lancer tradition, that used the Couched lance and eastern-type
      sorry but they did never use Western-type spear.

      > saddle. If they managed don't tell me the muscovites couldn't.
      The point is not the Muscovites never practiced ANY jousting The light cavalry obviously did - but in completely different way than the conical-shaped heavy spear suggested. The point is they never used Western-type spear shafts, invented for heavy cavalry tactics. The cone on the front part of the shaft is more likely to be seen, say, on a painting by Durer than on a Russian pre-18 century drawing.

      Bye,
      Alex.
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