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Re: Building repair bans and other holocausts Re: Fwd: [sig] Cossack

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  • jennifer knox
    How about we all step away from the computers, take a deep breath, and play nicely? It s just history, and one that hasn t been definately decided *either
    Message 1 of 16 , May 25, 2007
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      How about we all step away from the computers, take a deep breath, and play nicely? It's just history, and one that hasn't been definately decided *either way*. I'd love to see bibliographies and documentation supporting both sides of the arguement... Debating is never easy when people aren't neccesarily using their native languages, and modal verbs don't exist in slavic languages which tend to make the English a bit harder than most native speakers are used to (I teach English as a second language, so I know this), so maybe it sounded like people were being more aggressive then they really were, eh?
      Bottom line is that it's great that people are so passionate about this, but lets not let it go from passion to anger...
      And I really would love to see some hard facts (documented facts) from either side of the debate!
      Anya


      Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...> wrote:


      Greetings!

      > Kiev showed that some churches traditionally treated as "destroyed
      > during the Mongol capturing of teh city" were actually intact in teh
      > time, and slowly turned to ruins in the 17 century. There was a king's
      > decree for Ukraine, about 1680s, afair - banning the repair of Orthodox
      > temples.
      > **Was that before or after the Cossacks and friends massacred 20-30
      > thousand jews in Kiew , and a hundred thousand more Jews beyond? Oh, I
      > remember now, that was in 1648.
      afair 1670 and something.

      >
      > That period broke many tradition lines between Kievan Rus and the
      > Ukraine/Malorossia.
      > **What period, when the Mongols left the region almost completely
      > depopulated? I suppose that cut the lines pretty good, and without the

      not depopulated enough to write down the Kievan Bylina cycle in the North of Russia.
      Yep, I remember Plano Karpini chronicles, if I did not confuse him with Rubruck. But the central position of the Kievan throne was traditional not real political for most part. The Varyag to Greece path fell in decline yet before the Mongiols, that was the real reason of the Kievan rus decline. The story began from a blank sheet, yes.

      > people they probably had nothing personal against the buildings they
      > now owned. I guess that made them sort of a 1200s Neutron Bomb.

      ????????
      The mongols dod not look for equity. They had no interest in buildings. Not to say most building except churches were wooden, and were simply burnt during teh siege and the sacking of the city.

      > Sorry, but there are lots of facts out there for us to pick and choose
      > from, are there not? for all the old old glass houses about its pretty
      > dangerous to cast stones over what happened long ago, and as silly as
      > taking sides -seriously taking sides- on the royalist or
      > parliamentarian side of the English Civil War. If you have a modern
      > nationalistic or political point to make, why not make it in modern
      > terms on an appropriate forum?
      ???????
      Damn, said a little fish in a great fish shoal. And all that started from simple playing tags.
      I do not impose any of my political views on You. I simply do not express them. I retell you the facts I borrowed from UKRAINIAN sources I read. And they say a definite "No" to any possibility of a dance fighting tradition. I respecyt any wise guy who makes a siound martial arts system, using his own head and his views on what it should look like. I practice one. But anyone who tries to persuade me there was something like that in period, should brimng a real mighty persuador, be it Chukcha fighting, Hopak or Old Russian martial arts. That's what teh conversation started from, here it ends. If you nare going to call me a damn Russian chauvinist pig, you'll have to involve any of your fantasy, I was born on the Volga, the region more Tatar and Chuvash than Russian, and it does not bother me what they do there in Ukraine, or in Georgia, or what. And I have nothing against any ex-USSR nations national pride unless they start boasting it was them to invent the wheel or to found
      Old Greece. I've met plenty of such stuff.

      Bye,
      Alex.

      I'll try to have patience never to put a foot into your discussions.





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    • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
      Greetings! ... I am awfully sorry. as of the facts, I am again awfully sorry i am 200 years mistaken. Dr. Gleb Ivakin (a Ukrainian historian from Kiev),
      Message 2 of 16 , May 25, 2007
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        Greetings!

        >
        > How about we all step away from the computers, take a deep breath, and play nicely? It's just history, and one that hasn't been definately decided *either way*. I'd love to see bibliographies and documentation supporting both sides of the arguement... Debating is never easy when people aren't neccesarily using their native languages, and modal verbs don't exist in slavic languages which tend to make the English a bit harder than most native speakers are used to (I teach English as a second language, so I know this), so maybe it sounded like people were being more aggressive then they really were, eh?
        > Bottom line is that it's great that people are so passionate about this, but lets not let it go from passion to anger...
        > And I really would love to see some hard facts (documented facts) from either side of the debate!
        I am awfully sorry.
        as of the facts, I am again awfully sorry i am 200 years mistaken.
        Dr. Gleb Ivakin (a Ukrainian historian from Kiev), Yuzhnaya Rus I Batyevo Nashestviye (Southern Rus and the Batu Invasion), Rodina, # 11-12, 2002, pp. 107-111:


        "...особо важными стали статьи М.П. Кучеры и В.О. Довженка. Кучера впервые выделил несколько групп керамики, которую тралдиционно датировали X веком, и доказал ее принадлежность ко второй половине XIII - XIV веку. Довженок указывал на необходимость археологического исследования периода после Батыева нашествия в Среднем Поднепровье и пересмотра господствующего мнения о полном запустении региона в это время. он выделил три вида поселений Среднего Поднепровья: 1) уничтоженные монголами городища, где жизнь полностью перркатилась (впрочем, такие в регионе археологически не исследованы и выделены по аналогии с волынскими); 2) разрушенные поселения, где жизнь вскоре восстановилась на том же емсте или рядом; 3) поселения уцелевшие от погрома. Довженок, пожалуй, впервые обратил внимание на тот важный факт. что "и там. куда татарские полчища не добрались, жизнь прекращается в XIV-XV веках.
        ...имелись, наверное, и какие-то иные обстоятельства, которые принуждали население уже после татарского нашествия оставлять насиженные места." (in other words, Karpini exaggerated the depopulation of teh region - and teh author in anoyther passage I didn't cite as it is very big, states Karpini did not say about depopulation in the first version of the text, adding that to the final version presented to the pope. And a depopulated city could not have counted 200 households and receive merchants from Austria, poland, and major European trade centers - while Karpini reports both facts.)

        "Общие изменения в материальной культуре, искусстве (архаизация, завершение романской эпохи) в XIII веке имеют общеевропейскую подоснову. Монгольское нашествие вызвало перемещение больших масс разноэтничексого населения, создало новую карту Восточной Европы. В это же время происходит завоевание католиками Византии и другие последствия крестовых походов для всего Средиземноморья.

        Появление большого числа брошенных поселений следует связывать прежде всего с кардинальтной сменой системы расселения - господствующим становится не приречный, а водораздельный тип. Изменяется и тип сельского поселения - переход тот однодворных к многодворным..." (in other words, the world came to a change, and sitting by the river was no bonus already. That refers to the Put' iz Varyag v Greki as well - main caravan routes had changed considerably since Oleg and Svyatoslav, - mainly due to Khalifate wars, that almost closed the traditional Silk Road and established the Arabs' oriental trade monopoly).

        "Еще одним распространенным мифом является мнение об уничтожении монголами всех древнерусских каменных построек Киева. Оно базируется прежде всего на сообщениях авторов XVI-XVII веков и молчании источников более раннего периода. первые единодушно свидетельствуют о жалком состоянии одних киевских храмов и разрушении других. Онако они лишь фиксируют состояние памятников на конкретное время. а в сознании авторов этого времени события XIV-XV веков откладывались лишь на фоне батыева нашествия. Хан был наиболее ярким героем, клоторому все и приписывали. Результаты разгромов 1416 и 1482 годов также приписывались Батыю.

        Летописи не сообщают о разрушении монголами каких-либо церквей, кроме десятинной в Киеве и михайловской в переяславе. Археологическими раскопками также не зафиксировано разрушений какого-либо памяьтника в ходе событий 1237-12412 годов, хотя исключать этого не следует." (that is, the Mongol did not destroy stone churches, while they could break into ones during the storm. And some churches were destroyed in XIV-XV centuries, and - notably - the author reminds that it was the muscovy to free itself from the Mongol control in 1482 - while the Kievan land was freed a century before, after teh Sinevodskaya battle of 1362.

        p. 111:
        "Существенным фактором, сыгравшим важную роль в гибели многих древних памятников на территории Украины, являлся запрет польского короля Казимира IV (подтвержденный в 1481 году) ремонтировать и восстанавливать православные церкви.

        Далеко не случайно в Kиеве сохранились те памятники, которые имели экономическую поддержку. Софийский собор, Пирогощу поддерживали митрополия и городю. Успенский, михайловские - выдубицкий и Златоверхий, Кирилловский соборы принадлежали монастырям, которые владели землями и которых поддерживали феодалы и власти. Разрушались перимущественно приходские храмы, а также оставшиеся без покровительства. Таким образом, фактическое разрушение города 1240 года явилось лишь одним из звеньев в цепи причин гибели храмов, хотя и одной из основных." (that is, the Polish state let the churches turn into ruins, as the whole region fell into decline and could not support its ever-magnificent-before infrastructure.


        On Hopak:

        Istoria Boyevykh Iskusstv. Rossiya I ee Sosedi. under editorship by G.K. Panchenko. Moscow: Olimp, 1997 (actually, the authors of teh book live in Ukraine, and the book was simply offered to several Moscow publishing houses during the publishing boom of 1990s. I consulted the management of our publishing house on the value of the text, wnen they offered the manuscript to us, back in 1996.) p. 435:

        "Что касается конкретно "боевого гопака", то никто ведь не пытается объявить едимноборством танго и ламбаду, требующие не меньшей культуры движений. Когда современные мастера танца исполняют гопак, создается обоснованное впечатление, что он пригоден для подсечек и ударов ногой в выпрыгивании. Но неужели кто-нибудь может предположить, что казаки и пели на таком же уровне, как герои оперы "Запорожец за Дунаем"?
        (...)
        ...народный танец в чистом виде, не прошедший хореографическую или иную обработку, содержать полноценных элементов единоборства не может. Разве что с самого начала развивается как "танец-сражение", со своеобразной техникой, этикой и идеологией, но такого о гопаке не осмеливаются утверждать даже его сторонники.

        Если же после обработки в танце выявляются некие боевые элементы, совсем не обязательно, что они были в нем изначально. Просто любое движение, исполненное высокого совершенства, применимо в боевом искусстве."

        p. 439:

        "казачество имеет вполне солидную историю вооруженных столкновений с самыми разными противниками. В этой истории достаточно ярких страниц, чтобы не было нужды их фальсифицировать. Внимательный анализ этих страниц показывает: главное оружие казачества - стрельба и маневр, а не "прямая" рубка в ближнем бою. Из "лобовых" клинковых и рукопашных схваток с обученным фехтованию противником казаки (не только запорожцы) чаще всего выходили победителями не на полях сражений. а на страницах официознеых романов исторического плана.

        Очень забавно бывает проследить цепочку доказательств сторонников "казацкого ушу" до конца. обычно следует ссылка на вроде не вызывающие никаких сомнений факты, опубликованные сговетской историографиней в не самые лучшие ее времена. (например. на работу Е.М. Черновой "Физичексая подготовка украинского казачества", вышедшую в 1955 г., когда украина безоговорочно считалась россией и, следовательно могла претендовать на часть "родины слонов"). В этой работе присутствуют столь же бюезапелляционные ссылки на ряд источников, одни из которых в действительности не содержат особено сенспационных сведений, а другие (например, журнальные статьи 10-х гг. нашего века) уже не столь категорически отсылают читателей к изданиям 30-40-х гг. прошлого столетия. Последние, если удается до них добраться, уже никаких ссылок не дают, ибо являются... художественными произведениями (да еще, как правило, типичными образцами "бульварной литературы").

        Hope that helps. I can't translate myself, lots of work by Monday. Try Babelfish, it should work with most of the words.

        Bye,
        Alex
      • jennifer knox
        Alexey, The Russian words are all showing up as random latin letters...could you send it again when you have time (maybe attatched as a word document)?
        Message 3 of 16 , May 26, 2007
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          Alexey, The Russian words are all showing up as random latin letters...could you send it again when you have time (maybe attatched as a word document)?
          Thanks!
          Anya

          Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...> wrote:


          Greetings!

          >
          > How about we all step away from the computers, take a deep breath, and play nicely? It's just history, and one that hasn't been definately decided *either way*. I'd love to see bibliographies and documentation supporting both sides of the arguement... Debating is never easy when people aren't neccesarily using their native languages, and modal verbs don't exist in slavic languages which tend to make the English a bit harder than most native speakers are used to (I teach English as a second language, so I know this), so maybe it sounded like people were being more aggressive then they really were, eh?
          > Bottom line is that it's great that people are so passionate about this, but lets not let it go from passion to anger...
          > And I really would love to see some hard facts (documented facts) from either side of the debate!
          I am awfully sorry.
          as of the facts, I am again awfully sorry i am 200 years mistaken.
          Dr. Gleb Ivakin (a Ukrainian historian from Kiev), Yuzhnaya Rus I Batyevo Nashestviye (Southern Rus and the Batu Invasion), Rodina, # 11-12, 2002, pp. 107-111:


          "...ÏÓÏÂÏ ×ÁÖÎÙÍÉ ÓÔÁÌÉ ÓÔÁÔØÉ í.ð. ëÕÞÅÒÙ É ÷.ï. äÏ×ÖÅÎËÁ. ëÕÞÅÒÁ ×ÐÅÒ×ÙÅ ×ÙÄÅÌÉÌ ÎÅÓËÏÌØËÏ ÇÒÕÐÐ ËÅÒÁÍÉËÉ, ËÏÔÏÒÕÀ ÔÒÁÌÄÉÃÉÏÎÎÏ ÄÁÔÉÒÏ×ÁÌÉ X ×ÅËÏÍ, É ÄÏËÁÚÁÌ ÅÅ ÐÒÉÎÁÄÌÅÖÎÏÓÔØ ËÏ ×ÔÏÒÏÊ ÐÏÌÏ×ÉÎÅ XIII - XIV ×ÅËÕ. äÏ×ÖÅÎÏË ÕËÁÚÙ×ÁÌ ÎÁ ÎÅÏÂÈÏÄÉÍÏÓÔØ ÁÒÈÅÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÏÇÏ ÉÓÓÌÅÄÏ×ÁÎÉÑ ÐÅÒÉÏÄÁ ÐÏÓÌÅ âÁÔÙÅ×Á ÎÁÛÅÓÔ×ÉÑ × óÒÅÄÎÅÍ ðÏÄÎÅÐÒÏ×ØÅ É ÐÅÒÅÓÍÏÔÒÁ ÇÏÓÐÏÄÓÔ×ÕÀÝÅÇÏ ÍÎÅÎÉÑ Ï ÐÏÌÎÏÍ ÚÁÐÕÓÔÅÎÉÉ ÒÅÇÉÏÎÁ × ÜÔÏ ×ÒÅÍÑ. ÏÎ ×ÙÄÅÌÉÌ ÔÒÉ ×ÉÄÁ ÐÏÓÅÌÅÎÉÊ óÒÅÄÎÅÇÏ ðÏÄÎÅÐÒÏ×ØÑ: 1) ÕÎÉÞÔÏÖÅÎÎÙÅ ÍÏÎÇÏÌÁÍÉ ÇÏÒÏÄÉÝÁ, ÇÄÅ ÖÉÚÎØ ÐÏÌÎÏÓÔØÀ ÐÅÒÒËÁÔÉÌÁÓØ (×ÐÒÏÞÅÍ, ÔÁËÉÅ × ÒÅÇÉÏÎÅ ÁÒÈÅÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉ ÎÅ ÉÓÓÌÅÄÏ×ÁÎÙ É ×ÙÄÅÌÅÎÙ ÐÏ ÁÎÁÌÏÇÉÉ Ó ×ÏÌÙÎÓËÉÍÉ); 2) ÒÁÚÒÕÛÅÎÎÙÅ ÐÏÓÅÌÅÎÉÑ, ÇÄÅ ÖÉÚÎØ ×ÓËÏÒÅ ×ÏÓÓÔÁÎÏ×ÉÌÁÓØ ÎÁ ÔÏÍ ÖÅ ÅÍÓÔÅ ÉÌÉ ÒÑÄÏÍ; 3) ÐÏÓÅÌÅÎÉÑ ÕÃÅÌÅ×ÛÉÅ ÏÔ ÐÏÇÒÏÍÁ. äÏ×ÖÅÎÏË, ÐÏÖÁÌÕÊ, ×ÐÅÒ×ÙÅ ÏÂÒÁÔÉÌ ×ÎÉÍÁÎÉÅ ÎÁ ÔÏÔ ×ÁÖÎÙÊ ÆÁËÔ. ÞÔÏ "É ÔÁÍ. ËÕÄÁ ÔÁÔÁÒÓËÉÅ ÐÏÌÞÉÝÁ ÎÅ ÄÏÂÒÁÌÉÓØ, ÖÉÚÎØ ÐÒÅËÒÁÝÁÅÔÓÑ × XIV-XV ×ÅËÁÈ.
          ...ÉÍÅÌÉÓØ, ÎÁ×ÅÒÎÏÅ, É ËÁËÉÅ-ÔÏ ÉÎÙÅ ÏÂÓÔÏÑÔÅÌØÓÔ×Á, ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÐÒÉÎÕÖÄÁÌÉ ÎÁÓÅÌÅÎÉÅ ÕÖÅ ÐÏÓÌÅ ÔÁÔÁÒÓËÏÇÏ ÎÁÛÅÓÔ×ÉÑ ÏÓÔÁ×ÌÑÔØ ÎÁÓÉÖÅÎÎÙÅ ÍÅÓÔÁ." (in other words, Karpini exaggerated the depopulation of teh region - and teh author in anoyther passage I didn't cite as it is very big, states Karpini did not say about depopulation in the first version of the text, adding that to the final version presented to the pope. And a depopulated city could not have counted 200 households and receive merchants from Austria, poland, and major European trade centers - while Karpini reports both facts.)

          "ïÂÝÉÅ ÉÚÍÅÎÅÎÉÑ × ÍÁÔÅÒÉÁÌØÎÏÊ ËÕÌØÔÕÒÅ, ÉÓËÕÓÓÔ×Å (ÁÒÈÁÉÚÁÃÉÑ, ÚÁ×ÅÒÛÅÎÉÅ ÒÏÍÁÎÓËÏÊ ÜÐÏÈÉ) × XIII ×ÅËÅ ÉÍÅÀÔ ÏÂÝÅÅ×ÒÏÐÅÊÓËÕÀ ÐÏÄÏÓÎÏ×Õ. íÏÎÇÏÌØÓËÏÅ ÎÁÛÅÓÔ×ÉÅ ×ÙÚ×ÁÌÏ ÐÅÒÅÍÅÝÅÎÉÅ ÂÏÌØÛÉÈ ÍÁÓÓ ÒÁÚÎÏÜÔÎÉÞÅËÓÏÇÏ ÎÁÓÅÌÅÎÉÑ, ÓÏÚÄÁÌÏ ÎÏ×ÕÀ ËÁÒÔÕ ÷ÏÓÔÏÞÎÏÊ å×ÒÏÐÙ. ÷ ÜÔÏ ÖÅ ×ÒÅÍÑ ÐÒÏÉÓÈÏÄÉÔ ÚÁ×ÏÅ×ÁÎÉÅ ËÁÔÏÌÉËÁÍÉ ÷ÉÚÁÎÔÉÉ É ÄÒÕÇÉÅ ÐÏÓÌÅÄÓÔ×ÉÑ ËÒÅÓÔÏ×ÙÈ ÐÏÈÏÄÏ× ÄÌÑ ×ÓÅÇÏ óÒÅÄÉÚÅÍÎÏÍÏÒØÑ.

          ðÏÑ×ÌÅÎÉÅ ÂÏÌØÛÏÇÏ ÞÉÓÌÁ ÂÒÏÛÅÎÎÙÈ ÐÏÓÅÌÅÎÉÊ ÓÌÅÄÕÅÔ Ó×ÑÚÙ×ÁÔØ ÐÒÅÖÄÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ Ó ËÁÒÄÉÎÁÌØÔÎÏÊ ÓÍÅÎÏÊ ÓÉÓÔÅÍÙ ÒÁÓÓÅÌÅÎÉÑ - ÇÏÓÐÏÄÓÔ×ÕÀÝÉÍ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÉÔÓÑ ÎÅ ÐÒÉÒÅÞÎÙÊ, Á ×ÏÄÏÒÁÚÄÅÌØÎÙÊ ÔÉÐ. éÚÍÅÎÑÅÔÓÑ É ÔÉÐ ÓÅÌØÓËÏÇÏ ÐÏÓÅÌÅÎÉÑ - ÐÅÒÅÈÏÄ ÔÏÔ ÏÄÎÏÄ×ÏÒÎÙÈ Ë ÍÎÏÇÏÄ×ÏÒÎÙÍ..." (in other words, the world came to a change, and sitting by the river was no bonus already. That refers to the Put' iz Varyag v Greki as well - main caravan routes had changed considerably since Oleg and Svyatoslav, - mainly due to Khalifate wars, that almost closed the traditional Silk Road and established the Arabs' oriental trade monopoly).

          "åÝÅ ÏÄÎÉÍ ÒÁÓÐÒÏÓÔÒÁÎÅÎÎÙÍ ÍÉÆÏÍ Ñ×ÌÑÅÔÓÑ ÍÎÅÎÉÅ Ï ÕÎÉÞÔÏÖÅÎÉÉ ÍÏÎÇÏÌÁÍÉ ×ÓÅÈ ÄÒÅ×ÎÅÒÕÓÓËÉÈ ËÁÍÅÎÎÙÈ ÐÏÓÔÒÏÅË ëÉÅ×Á. ïÎÏ ÂÁÚÉÒÕÅÔÓÑ ÐÒÅÖÄÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ÎÁ ÓÏÏÂÝÅÎÉÑÈ Á×ÔÏÒÏ× XVI-XVII ×ÅËÏ× É ÍÏÌÞÁÎÉÉ ÉÓÔÏÞÎÉËÏ× ÂÏÌÅÅ ÒÁÎÎÅÇÏ ÐÅÒÉÏÄÁ. ÐÅÒ×ÙÅ ÅÄÉÎÏÄÕÛÎÏ Ó×ÉÄÅÔÅÌØÓÔ×ÕÀÔ Ï ÖÁÌËÏÍ ÓÏÓÔÏÑÎÉÉ ÏÄÎÉÈ ËÉÅ×ÓËÉÈ ÈÒÁÍÏ× É ÒÁÚÒÕÛÅÎÉÉ ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. ïÎÁËÏ ÏÎÉ ÌÉÛØ ÆÉËÓÉÒÕÀÔ ÓÏÓÔÏÑÎÉÅ ÐÁÍÑÔÎÉËÏ× ÎÁ ËÏÎËÒÅÔÎÏÅ ×ÒÅÍÑ. Á × ÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÉ Á×ÔÏÒÏ× ÜÔÏÇÏ ×ÒÅÍÅÎÉ ÓÏÂÙÔÉÑ XIV-XV ×ÅËÏ× ÏÔËÌÁÄÙ×ÁÌÉÓØ ÌÉÛØ ÎÁ ÆÏÎÅ ÂÁÔÙÅ×Á ÎÁÛÅÓÔ×ÉÑ. èÁÎ ÂÙÌ ÎÁÉÂÏÌÅÅ ÑÒËÉÍ ÇÅÒÏÅÍ, ËÌÏÔÏÒÏÍÕ ×ÓÅ É ÐÒÉÐÉÓÙ×ÁÌÉ. òÅÚÕÌØÔÁÔÙ ÒÁÚÇÒÏÍÏ× 1416 É 1482 ÇÏÄÏ× ÔÁËÖÅ ÐÒÉÐÉÓÙ×ÁÌÉÓØ âÁÔÙÀ.

          ìÅÔÏÐÉÓÉ ÎÅ ÓÏÏÂÝÁÀÔ Ï ÒÁÚÒÕÛÅÎÉÉ ÍÏÎÇÏÌÁÍÉ ËÁËÉÈ-ÌÉÂÏ ÃÅÒË×ÅÊ, ËÒÏÍÅ ÄÅÓÑÔÉÎÎÏÊ × ëÉÅ×Å É ÍÉÈÁÊÌÏ×ÓËÏÊ × ÐÅÒÅÑÓÌÁ×Å. áÒÈÅÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÍÉ ÒÁÓËÏÐËÁÍÉ ÔÁËÖÅ ÎÅ ÚÁÆÉËÓÉÒÏ×ÁÎÏ ÒÁÚÒÕÛÅÎÉÊ ËÁËÏÇÏ-ÌÉÂÏ ÐÁÍÑØÔÎÉËÁ × ÈÏÄÅ ÓÏÂÙÔÉÊ 1237-12412 ÇÏÄÏ×, ÈÏÔÑ ÉÓËÌÀÞÁÔØ ÜÔÏÇÏ ÎÅ ÓÌÅÄÕÅÔ." (that is, the Mongol did not destroy stone churches, while they could break into ones during the storm. And some churches were destroyed in XIV-XV centuries, and - notably - the author reminds that it was the muscovy to free itself from the Mongol control in 1482 - while the Kievan land was freed a century before, after teh Sinevodskaya battle of 1362.

          p. 111:
          "óÕÝÅÓÔ×ÅÎÎÙÍ ÆÁËÔÏÒÏÍ, ÓÙÇÒÁ×ÛÉÍ ×ÁÖÎÕÀ ÒÏÌØ × ÇÉÂÅÌÉ ÍÎÏÇÉÈ ÄÒÅ×ÎÉÈ ÐÁÍÑÔÎÉËÏ× ÎÁ ÔÅÒÒÉÔÏÒÉÉ õËÒÁÉÎÙ, Ñ×ÌÑÌÓÑ ÚÁÐÒÅÔ ÐÏÌØÓËÏÇÏ ËÏÒÏÌÑ ëÁÚÉÍÉÒÁ IV (ÐÏÄÔ×ÅÒÖÄÅÎÎÙÊ × 1481 ÇÏÄÕ) ÒÅÍÏÎÔÉÒÏ×ÁÔØ É ×ÏÓÓÔÁÎÁ×ÌÉ×ÁÔØ ÐÒÁ×ÏÓÌÁ×ÎÙÅ ÃÅÒË×É.

          äÁÌÅËÏ ÎÅ ÓÌÕÞÁÊÎÏ × KÉÅ×Å ÓÏÈÒÁÎÉÌÉÓØ ÔÅ ÐÁÍÑÔÎÉËÉ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÉÍÅÌÉ ÜËÏÎÏÍÉÞÅÓËÕÀ ÐÏÄÄÅÒÖËÕ. óÏÆÉÊÓËÉÊ ÓÏÂÏÒ, ðÉÒÏÇÏÝÕ ÐÏÄÄÅÒÖÉ×ÁÌÉ ÍÉÔÒÏÐÏÌÉÑ É ÇÏÒÏÄÀ. õÓÐÅÎÓËÉÊ, ÍÉÈÁÊÌÏ×ÓËÉÅ - ×ÙÄÕÂÉÃËÉÊ É úÌÁÔÏ×ÅÒÈÉÊ, ëÉÒÉÌÌÏ×ÓËÉÊ ÓÏÂÏÒÙ ÐÒÉÎÁÄÌÅÖÁÌÉ ÍÏÎÁÓÔÙÒÑÍ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ×ÌÁÄÅÌÉ ÚÅÍÌÑÍÉ É ËÏÔÏÒÙÈ ÐÏÄÄÅÒÖÉ×ÁÌÉ ÆÅÏÄÁÌÙ É ×ÌÁÓÔÉ. òÁÚÒÕÛÁÌÉÓØ ÐÅÒÉÍÕÝÅÓÔ×ÅÎÎÏ ÐÒÉÈÏÄÓËÉÅ ÈÒÁÍÙ, Á ÔÁËÖÅ ÏÓÔÁ×ÛÉÅÓÑ ÂÅÚ ÐÏËÒÏ×ÉÔÅÌØÓÔ×Á. ôÁËÉÍ ÏÂÒÁÚÏÍ, ÆÁËÔÉÞÅÓËÏÅ ÒÁÚÒÕÛÅÎÉÅ ÇÏÒÏÄÁ 1240 ÇÏÄÁ Ñ×ÉÌÏÓØ ÌÉÛØ ÏÄÎÉÍ ÉÚ Ú×ÅÎØÅ× × ÃÅÐÉ ÐÒÉÞÉÎ ÇÉÂÅÌÉ ÈÒÁÍÏ×, ÈÏÔÑ É ÏÄÎÏÊ ÉÚ ÏÓÎÏ×ÎÙÈ." (that is, the Polish state let the churches turn into ruins, as the whole region fell into decline and could not support its ever-magnificent-before infrastructure.


          On Hopak:

          Istoria Boyevykh Iskusstv. Rossiya I ee Sosedi. under editorship by G.K. Panchenko. Moscow: Olimp, 1997 (actually, the authors of teh book live in Ukraine, and the book was simply offered to several Moscow publishing houses during the publishing boom of 1990s. I consulted the management of our publishing house on the value of the text, wnen they offered the manuscript to us, back in 1996.) p. 435:

          "þÔÏ ËÁÓÁÅÔÓÑ ËÏÎËÒÅÔÎÏ "ÂÏÅ×ÏÇÏ ÇÏÐÁËÁ", ÔÏ ÎÉËÔÏ ×ÅÄØ ÎÅ ÐÙÔÁÅÔÓÑ ÏÂßÑ×ÉÔØ ÅÄÉÍÎÏÂÏÒÓÔ×ÏÍ ÔÁÎÇÏ É ÌÁÍÂÁÄÕ, ÔÒÅÂÕÀÝÉÅ ÎÅ ÍÅÎØÛÅÊ ËÕÌØÔÕÒÙ Ä×ÉÖÅÎÉÊ. ëÏÇÄÁ ÓÏ×ÒÅÍÅÎÎÙÅ ÍÁÓÔÅÒÁ ÔÁÎÃÁ ÉÓÐÏÌÎÑÀÔ ÇÏÐÁË, ÓÏÚÄÁÅÔÓÑ ÏÂÏÓÎÏ×ÁÎÎÏÅ ×ÐÅÞÁÔÌÅÎÉÅ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎ ÐÒÉÇÏÄÅÎ ÄÌÑ ÐÏÄÓÅÞÅË É ÕÄÁÒÏ× ÎÏÇÏÊ × ×ÙÐÒÙÇÉ×ÁÎÉÉ. îÏ ÎÅÕÖÅÌÉ ËÔÏ-ÎÉÂÕÄØ ÍÏÖÅÔ ÐÒÅÄÐÏÌÏÖÉÔØ, ÞÔÏ ËÁÚÁËÉ É ÐÅÌÉ ÎÁ ÔÁËÏÍ ÖÅ ÕÒÏ×ÎÅ, ËÁË ÇÅÒÏÉ ÏÐÅÒÙ "úÁÐÏÒÏÖÅà ÚÁ äÕÎÁÅÍ"?
          (...)
          ...ÎÁÒÏÄÎÙÊ ÔÁÎÅÃ × ÞÉÓÔÏÍ ×ÉÄÅ, ÎÅ ÐÒÏÛÅÄÛÉÊ ÈÏÒÅÏÇÒÁÆÉÞÅÓËÕÀ ÉÌÉ ÉÎÕÀ ÏÂÒÁÂÏÔËÕ, ÓÏÄÅÒÖÁÔØ ÐÏÌÎÏÃÅÎÎÙÈ ÜÌÅÍÅÎÔÏ× ÅÄÉÎÏÂÏÒÓÔ×Á ÎÅ ÍÏÖÅÔ. òÁÚ×Å ÞÔÏ Ó ÓÁÍÏÇÏ ÎÁÞÁÌÁ ÒÁÚ×É×ÁÅÔÓÑ ËÁË "ÔÁÎÅÃ-ÓÒÁÖÅÎÉÅ", ÓÏ Ó×ÏÅÏÂÒÁÚÎÏÊ ÔÅÈÎÉËÏÊ, ÜÔÉËÏÊ É ÉÄÅÏÌÏÇÉÅÊ, ÎÏ ÔÁËÏÇÏ Ï ÇÏÐÁËÅ ÎÅ ÏÓÍÅÌÉ×ÁÀÔÓÑ ÕÔ×ÅÒÖÄÁÔØ ÄÁÖÅ ÅÇÏ ÓÔÏÒÏÎÎÉËÉ.

          åÓÌÉ ÖÅ ÐÏÓÌÅ ÏÂÒÁÂÏÔËÉ × ÔÁÎÃÅ ×ÙÑ×ÌÑÀÔÓÑ ÎÅËÉÅ ÂÏÅ×ÙÅ ÜÌÅÍÅÎÔÙ, ÓÏ×ÓÅÍ ÎÅ ÏÂÑÚÁÔÅÌØÎÏ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎÉ ÂÙÌÉ × ÎÅÍ ÉÚÎÁÞÁÌØÎÏ. ðÒÏÓÔÏ ÌÀÂÏÅ Ä×ÉÖÅÎÉÅ, ÉÓÐÏÌÎÅÎÎÏÅ ×ÙÓÏËÏÇÏ ÓÏ×ÅÒÛÅÎÓÔ×Á, ÐÒÉÍÅÎÉÍÏ × ÂÏÅ×ÏÍ ÉÓËÕÓÓÔ×Å."

          p. 439:

          "ËÁÚÁÞÅÓÔ×Ï ÉÍÅÅÔ ×ÐÏÌÎÅ ÓÏÌÉÄÎÕÀ ÉÓÔÏÒÉÀ ×ÏÏÒÕÖÅÎÎÙÈ ÓÔÏÌËÎÏ×ÅÎÉÊ Ó ÓÁÍÙÍÉ ÒÁÚÎÙÍÉ ÐÒÏÔÉ×ÎÉËÁÍÉ. ÷ ÜÔÏÊ ÉÓÔÏÒÉÉ ÄÏÓÔÁÔÏÞÎÏ ÑÒËÉÈ ÓÔÒÁÎÉÃ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÎÅ ÂÙÌÏ ÎÕÖÄÙ ÉÈ ÆÁÌØÓÉÆÉÃÉÒÏ×ÁÔØ. ÷ÎÉÍÁÔÅÌØÎÙÊ ÁÎÁÌÉÚ ÜÔÉÈ ÓÔÒÁÎÉà ÐÏËÁÚÙ×ÁÅÔ: ÇÌÁ×ÎÏÅ ÏÒÕÖÉÅ ËÁÚÁÞÅÓÔ×Á - ÓÔÒÅÌØÂÁ É ÍÁÎÅ×Ò, Á ÎÅ "ÐÒÑÍÁÑ" ÒÕÂËÁ × ÂÌÉÖÎÅÍ ÂÏÀ. éÚ "ÌÏÂÏ×ÙÈ" ËÌÉÎËÏ×ÙÈ É ÒÕËÏÐÁÛÎÙÈ ÓÈ×ÁÔÏË Ó ÏÂÕÞÅÎÎÙÍ ÆÅÈÔÏ×ÁÎÉÀ ÐÒÏÔÉ×ÎÉËÏÍ ËÁÚÁËÉ (ÎÅ ÔÏÌØËÏ ÚÁÐÏÒÏÖÃÙ) ÞÁÝÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ×ÙÈÏÄÉÌÉ ÐÏÂÅÄÉÔÅÌÑÍÉ ÎÅ ÎÁ ÐÏÌÑÈ ÓÒÁÖÅÎÉÊ. Á ÎÁ ÓÔÒÁÎÉÃÁÈ ÏÆÉÃÉÏÚÎÅÙÈ ÒÏÍÁÎÏ× ÉÓÔÏÒÉÞÅÓËÏÇÏ ÐÌÁÎÁ.

          ïÞÅÎØ ÚÁÂÁ×ÎÏ ÂÙ×ÁÅÔ ÐÒÏÓÌÅÄÉÔØ ÃÅÐÏÞËÕ ÄÏËÁÚÁÔÅÌØÓÔ× ÓÔÏÒÏÎÎÉËÏ× "ËÁÚÁÃËÏÇÏ ÕÛÕ" ÄÏ ËÏÎÃÁ. ÏÂÙÞÎÏ ÓÌÅÄÕÅÔ ÓÓÙÌËÁ ÎÁ ×ÒÏÄÅ ÎÅ ×ÙÚÙ×ÁÀÝÉÅ ÎÉËÁËÉÈ ÓÏÍÎÅÎÉÊ ÆÁËÔÙ, ÏÐÕÂÌÉËÏ×ÁÎÎÙÅ ÓÇÏ×ÅÔÓËÏÊ ÉÓÔÏÒÉÏÇÒÁÆÉÎÅÊ × ÎÅ ÓÁÍÙÅ ÌÕÞÛÉÅ ÅÅ ×ÒÅÍÅÎÁ. (ÎÁÐÒÉÍÅÒ. ÎÁ ÒÁÂÏÔÕ å.í. þÅÒÎÏ×ÏÊ "æÉÚÉÞÅËÓÁÑ ÐÏÄÇÏÔÏ×ËÁ ÕËÒÁÉÎÓËÏÇÏ ËÁÚÁÞÅÓÔ×Á", ×ÙÛÅÄÛÕÀ × 1955 Ç., ËÏÇÄÁ ÕËÒÁÉÎÁ ÂÅÚÏÇÏ×ÏÒÏÞÎÏ ÓÞÉÔÁÌÁÓØ ÒÏÓÓÉÅÊ É, ÓÌÅÄÏ×ÁÔÅÌØÎÏ ÍÏÇÌÁ ÐÒÅÔÅÎÄÏ×ÁÔØ ÎÁ ÞÁÓÔØ "ÒÏÄÉÎÙ ÓÌÏÎÏ×"). ÷ ÜÔÏÊ ÒÁÂÏÔÅ ÐÒÉÓÕÔÓÔ×ÕÀÔ ÓÔÏÌØ ÖÅ ÂÀÅÚÁÐÅÌÌÑÃÉÏÎÎÙÅ ÓÓÙÌËÉ ÎÁ ÒÑÄ ÉÓÔÏÞÎÉËÏ×, ÏÄÎÉ ÉÚ ËÏÔÏÒÙÈ × ÄÅÊÓÔ×ÉÔÅÌØÎÏÓÔÉ ÎÅ ÓÏÄÅÒÖÁÔ ÏÓÏÂÅÎÏ ÓÅÎÓÐÁÃÉÏÎÎÙÈ Ó×ÅÄÅÎÉÊ, Á ÄÒÕÇÉÅ (ÎÁÐÒÉÍÅÒ, ÖÕÒÎÁÌØÎÙÅ ÓÔÁÔØÉ 10-È ÇÇ. ÎÁÛÅÇÏ ×ÅËÁ) ÕÖÅ ÎÅ ÓÔÏÌØ ËÁÔÅÇÏÒÉÞÅÓËÉ ÏÔÓÙÌÁÀÔ ÞÉÔÁÔÅÌÅÊ Ë ÉÚÄÁÎÉÑÍ 30-40-È ÇÇ. ÐÒÏÛÌÏÇÏ ÓÔÏÌÅÔÉÑ. ðÏÓÌÅÄÎÉÅ, ÅÓÌÉ ÕÄÁÅÔÓÑ ÄÏ ÎÉÈ ÄÏÂÒÁÔØÓÑ, ÕÖÅ ÎÉËÁËÉÈ ÓÓÙÌÏË ÎÅ ÄÁÀÔ, ÉÂÏ Ñ×ÌÑÀÔÓÑ... ÈÕÄÏÖÅÓÔ×ÅÎÎÙÍÉ ÐÒÏÉÚ×ÅÄÅÎÉÑÍÉ (ÄÁ ÅÝÅ, ËÁË ÐÒÁ×ÉÌÏ, ÔÉÐÉÞÎÙÍÉ ÏÂÒÁÚÃÁÍÉ "ÂÕÌØ×ÁÒÎÏÊ ÌÉÔÅÒÁÔÕÒÙ").

          Hope that helps. I can't translate myself, lots of work by Monday. Try Babelfish, it should work with most of the words.

          Bye,
          Alex



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        • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
          greetings! Damn... this mailing list does not support file attachment, a year or two ago, somebody tried to send a letter with pics attached, they used to not
          Message 4 of 16 , May 27, 2007
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            greetings!

            Damn... this mailing list does not support file attachment, a year or two ago, somebody tried to send a letter with pics attached, they used to not show up. Maybe changing the encoding will help. For the Russian text I think KOI8R or Cyrillic windows is needed, they are most popular with the Russian web sites.


            Bye,
            Alex.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: jennifer knox <jeniferknox@...>
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 01:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
            Subject: Re: Re[2]: Building repair bans and other holocausts Re: Fwd: [sig] Cossack

            > Alexey, The Russian words are all showing up as random latin letters...could you send it again when you have time (maybe attatched as a word document)?
            > Thanks!
            > Anya
          • Rick Orli
            Anyone who thinks I was talking about Poles vs Ukranians is sorely mistaken and I invite them to reread my post. I m talking about bad history, and the bad
            Message 5 of 16 , May 27, 2007
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              Anyone who thinks I was talking about Poles vs Ukranians is sorely
              mistaken and I invite them to reread my post. I'm talking about bad
              history, and the bad use of history for modern political or ethnic
              strife encouragement ends.

              I tried to briefly make my point about the ECW: maybe you would not
              think it absurd if I complained about the oppression that
              Marylanders still feel at the hands of Virginas going back to the
              conquest of our state and oppression of our political and Religious
              freedoms in 1680. Maybe you would, who knows, you probably don't
              know the details of the history. (But let me tell you, those
              G*&*&D**** Puritans really did a number on us.) Let me talk about
              American history instead, as an example, because that will let me
              state my argument more in a way that might not arouse nationalistic
              excitement.

              There is a comic-strip or young children's version of the story of
              the American revolution that goes like this: Freedom loving people
              (americans) are oppressed by foreign power (britians), who claim the
              right to tax and otherwise oppress the freedom lovers; who,
              naturally and by right and with the blessing of God declare their
              independence, and kick the nasty brits back into the sea.

              This is the basic version of the story that is still somewhat taught
              to children, and was the sort of Official Patriotic Adult History
              version throughout the 1800s and beyond.

              Anybody who opposed the British or their mighty trading empire in
              the 18th C. – and Britian was America's chief rival , not like
              today a strong partner- would tell some version of this story,
              embellished with gory details... British sending the Hessians to
              oppress Americans, and rape American women; the patriots and their
              women and children locked up in this church and burned to death, the
              summary execution of this or that innocent. Really, as many stories
              as you wanted to tell - there were lots of facts to pick from, for a
              brutal war that lasted years.

              But what about the other facts, like that the rebels were often the
              vocal and activest minority in many colonies? Or the deeper larger
              underlying facts… e.g. Was this a civil war, britian against
              britian, or a rebellion of american against britian? Gee, that sure
              is a complicated question, ain't it? In truth, the usual rule that
              that an unsuccessful rebellion is called a civil war, and a
              successful one is called a war of liberation. The winners get the
              write their version of the story.

              So, it was common for Americans of 1810 or 1890 who wanted to make a
              point about something relevant to their day, to go back to the
              stories and say, You can see the way the british really are by the
              way Tarelton burned the innocents in the Church. And if someone
              argued with them (not about the fact of this case, but about what it
              means about britians) they could whip out the facts about the
              specific case, and yes he sure did. Awful thing.

              Now your response to my comment is to say, now here is this or that
              nationalistic historian and this is what he said about some specific
              case. Well so what. My point is that your "facts"are being brought
              up in a one dimensional way just like the American nationalist of
              the 1810s might have brought up stories about the nasty brits - that
              makes it clear that there is a modern political agenda behind the
              version of the history you have bought into and that you are
              foisting on us.
              -Rick
            • Tim Nalley
              Absolutely! Politics, flame wars and pre-concieved agendas have no place in historical research and certainly no place on the SIG discussion page! My history
              Message 6 of 16 , May 29, 2007
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                Absolutely! Politics, flame wars and pre-concieved
                agendas have no place in historical research and
                certainly no place on the SIG discussion page!
                My history professors hammered certain rules into
                us. Historians follow the facts, then form thier
                theories. Antiquarians start with a theory and attempt
                to fit the sources to support that theory, which
                always fails when the facts eventually come out.
                Historians use critical analysis of all the
                available resources to find those facts. First, they
                look for commonalities between the competing sources
                for a baseline of facts, then read all the texts
                critically to see which repeats the "facts" of
                previously written sources to identify secondary and
                derivative sources. Then they compare as many of the
                surviving texts of the competing sides to get a 360
                view of the event, and compare that "picture" against
                commonly agreed upon facts to form a theory about what
                actually happened......that's the slice of pie theory.
                Each segment is a slice, all of which makes the entire
                pie.
                At least, that's what I was taught to do. Thats
                also why so many history degreed people become
                lawyers. You use the same techniques to find out what
                actually happened since everyone has their own agenda
                the are pushing for their own benefit. When jailtime
                or huge fines are at stake, everyone is lying to
                protect those interests. Its the perfect training for
                a future lawyer, and it makes you a better historian.
                'dok




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              • Shannon Anderson
                That was nice, Mordak. I would add that it is my conditioning as a scientist also to not take being incorrect personally. It s always good to have someone
                Message 7 of 16 , May 29, 2007
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                  That was nice, Mordak.

                  I would add that it is my conditioning as a scientist also to not take being incorrect personally. It's always good to have someone challenge your position and make you go through the steps again to prove your point.

                  And finding out you were wrong, or partly incorrect, is not a big deal. Especially in this line of research (Slavic), I think we all know how hard it is sometimes to sort through all the revisionist, silly, and just plain crazy documents out there.

                  But I've loved following this discussion. I'm always impressed by the minds of my fellow SIG scholars.

                  Margarita


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                • Tim Nalley
                  Thanks! BTW, I ll miss you all this year at Pennsic! A transmision for my Lady s Suburban has eaten our horded Pennsic fund, and then some! Next stop, Slavic
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 29, 2007
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                    Thanks! BTW, I'll miss you all this year at Pennsic! A
                    transmision for my Lady's Suburban has eaten our
                    horded Pennsic fund, and then some!

                    Next stop, Slavic U!

                    'dok
                    --- Shannon Anderson <kitonlove@...> wrote:

                    > That was nice, Mordak.
                    >
                    > I would add that it is my conditioning as a
                    > scientist also to not take being incorrect
                    > personally. It's always good to have someone
                    > challenge your position and make you go through the
                    > steps again to prove your point.
                    >
                    > And finding out you were wrong, or partly incorrect,
                    > is not a big deal. Especially in this line of
                    > research (Slavic), I think we all know how hard it
                    > is sometimes to sort through all the revisionist,
                    > silly, and just plain crazy documents out there.
                    >
                    > But I've loved following this discussion. I'm always
                    > impressed by the minds of my fellow SIG scholars.
                    >
                    > Margarita
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Never miss an email again!
                    > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail
                    > arrives. Check it out.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >



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                  • aldo
                    I perfectly agree with what Tim says. An historian must be a today s witness of yesterday s facts. Of course the pie is baked by the historian but the
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 29, 2007
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                      I perfectly agree with what Tim says. An historian must be a today's witness of yesterday's facts. Of course the pie is baked by the historian but the ingredients are a reality even tho I found that reality is a personal thing and each of us sees it the way he learnt to.
                      Ciao


                      Aldo C. Marturano
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Tim Nalley
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:44 PM
                      Subject: [sig] We are all historians, not antiquarians, so relax


                      Absolutely! Politics, flame wars and pre-concieved
                      agendas have no place in historical research and
                      certainly no place on the SIG discussion page!
                      My history professors hammered certain rules into
                      us. Historians follow the facts, then form thier
                      theories. Antiquarians start with a theory and attempt
                      to fit the sources to support that theory, which
                      always fails when the facts eventually come out.
                      Historians use critical analysis of all the
                      available resources to find those facts. First, they
                      look for commonalities between the competing sources
                      for a baseline of facts, then read all the texts
                      critically to see which repeats the "facts" of
                      previously written sources to identify secondary and
                      derivative sources. Then they compare as many of the
                      surviving texts of the competing sides to get a 360
                      view of the event, and compare that "picture" against
                      commonly agreed upon facts to form a theory about what
                      actually happened......that's the slice of pie theory.
                      Each segment is a slice, all of which makes the entire
                      pie.
                      At least, that's what I was taught to do. Thats
                      also why so many history degreed people become
                      lawyers. You use the same techniques to find out what
                      actually happened since everyone has their own agenda
                      the are pushing for their own benefit. When jailtime
                      or huge fines are at stake, everyone is lying to
                      protect those interests. Its the perfect training for
                      a future lawyer, and it makes you a better historian.
                      'dok


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                    • Sfandra
                      ... Sorry to hear that -- we ll miss you. Has anyone taken on the SIG meeting for this Pennsic? Did I just get nominated?? :D :D :D --Sfandra
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 30, 2007
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                        > Thanks! BTW, I'll miss you all this year at Pennsic!
                        > A
                        > transmision for my Lady's Suburban has eaten our
                        > horded Pennsic fund, and then some!
                        >
                        > Next stop, Slavic U!
                        >
                        > 'dok


                        Sorry to hear that -- we'll miss you.

                        Has anyone taken on the SIG meeting for this Pennsic?

                        Did I just get nominated?? :D :D :D

                        --Sfandra

                        ******************
                        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                        KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                        Haus Von Drakenklaue
                        Kingdom of the East
                        ******************
                        Never 'pearl' your butt.



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                      • Paul W Goldschmidt
                        No, no one has done so yet. Are you willing? -- Paul
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 30, 2007
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                          No, no one has done so yet. Are you willing?

                          -- Paul

                          At 07:45 AM 5/30/2007, you wrote:
                          >Sorry to hear that -- we'll miss you.
                          >
                          >Has anyone taken on the SIG meeting for this Pennsic?
                          >
                          >Did I just get nominated?? :D :D :D
                          >
                          >--Sfandra
                        • Sfandra
                          Lemme check w/ my Household, to see if there s a good time. --Sfandra ... ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova KOE, Maunche,
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 30, 2007
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                            Lemme check w/ my Household, to see if there's a good
                            time.

                            --Sfandra

                            --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                            > No, no one has done so yet. Are you willing?
                            >
                            > -- Paul
                            >
                            > At 07:45 AM 5/30/2007, you wrote:
                            > >Sorry to hear that -- we'll miss you.
                            > >
                            > >Has anyone taken on the SIG meeting for this
                            > Pennsic?
                            > >
                            > >Did I just get nominated?? :D :D :D
                            > >
                            > >--Sfandra
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            ******************
                            Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                            KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                            Haus Von Drakenklaue
                            Kingdom of the East
                            ******************
                            Never 'pearl' your butt.



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                          • Sfandra
                            ... Okey Dokey. Maybe I m nuts. I m fighting, I m teaching 3 classes, I m helping put up a dayboard for 100 people, and now I m taking on the Annual Pennsic
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 30, 2007
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                              --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:
                              > No, no one has done so yet. Are you willing?
                              >
                              > -- Paul

                              Okey Dokey.

                              Maybe I'm nuts. I'm fighting, I'm teaching 3 classes,
                              I'm helping put up a dayboard for 100 people, and now
                              I'm taking on the Annual Pennsic SIG meeting. :D
                              Fortunately, my fiancee isn't going this year! He'd
                              never see me.... :D

                              OK, here's my thought: If we make it a "roundtable",
                              we can probably get an A&S tent. It will still be our
                              usual "chat, schmooze, etc" with pot-luck
                              refreshments, but we'll just call it "Slavic Interests
                              Roundtable".

                              Or, I can see if we can get some time in the East
                              Kingdom Royal encampment, which is Much Nicer, but
                              much harder to do.

                              Anyone have any suggestions/ideas/thoughts?

                              --Sfandra




                              ******************
                              Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                              KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                              Haus Von Drakenklaue
                              Kingdom of the East
                              ******************
                              Never 'pearl' your butt.



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                            • Sfandra
                              Hello! I ve submitted a Slavic Interest Group Roundtable as a Pennsic U class. I ve slotted it for Thursday 8/9 afternoon, sometime 3-6, and I ve set it for
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 6, 2007
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                                Hello!

                                I've submitted a "Slavic Interest Group Roundtable" as
                                a Pennsic U class. I've slotted it for Thursday 8/9
                                afternoon, sometime 3-6, and I've set it for 2 hours.
                                It's too late to make the Big Book, but it'll be up at
                                A&S point and in the Independant.

                                Since I'm probably bringing a dry-erase board for my
                                other classes, I'll set that out in front of the tent
                                w/ "SIG" drawn nice and big on it. There should be a
                                table for potluck refreshments. I myself will try to
                                bring something interesting to share.

                                Here's the class info:

                                "Title of Class- Slavic Interest Group Roundtable
                                Type of Class - --General Class--
                                Description- Join us for a sociable discussion of
                                Eastern European cultures. Share books, ask
                                questions, share refreshments, meet and greet members
                                from around the Known World.

                                Length of Class-2 hour(s)
                                Age Limit(s) - , , , , None

                                # of co-instructors-
                                Co-instructors-

                                Preferred Day to teach- 8/9 Time- 3pm to 6pm"

                                Thanks everyone,
                                Sfandra

                                ******************
                                Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                                KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                                Haus Von Drakenklaue
                                Kingdom of the East
                                ******************
                                Never 'pearl' your butt.



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                              • goldschp@tds.net
                                Thank you so much for taking the lead on this. Please let us know what develops. Thanks, Paul
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 6, 2007
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                                  Thank you so much for taking the lead on this. Please let us know what develops.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Paul

                                  ---- Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
                                  > Hello!
                                  >
                                  > I've submitted a "Slavic Interest Group Roundtable" as
                                  > a Pennsic U class. I've slotted it for Thursday 8/9
                                  > afternoon, sometime 3-6, and I've set it for 2 hours.
                                  > It's too late to make the Big Book, but it'll be up at
                                  > A&S point and in the Independant.
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