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RE: Re: [sig] Re: Polish dresses

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  • L.M. Kies
    ... In fact, the above statement is demonstrably false. The most desirable fabrics and furs came from the east. Spices and perfumes came from the east. The
    Message 1 of 5 , May 12, 2007
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      >It's probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east.

      In fact, the above statement is demonstrably false. The most desirable fabrics and furs came from the east. Spices and perfumes came from the east. The finest filigree/enameled jewelry (and gems) came from the east. The modern business suit evolved from the "Polish" caftan when it replace Ye Olde doublet and hose.

      I recently heard someone say something to the effect of "Master So-and-so says that medieval Russian styles are just 200 years behind Europe." I was so shocked I didn't know what to say. And now I'm curious what 14th century French garment corresponds to the 16th century Russian shuba... ;-)

      It's just so easy to assume that what you are most familiar with is the original/primary/most influential/advanced. Since I study Russian clothing, when I found out that Lithuanian women wore a three-bead-temple ring, my first thought was that they borrowed it from Rus. But it would have been just as logical to wonder if the Rus got it from the Lithuanians, or they both adopted it from a third culture. (My Russian sources say that the style originated with the Polianian tribe living in the Kiev area.)

      It strikes me as odd that people assume that Poland was borrowing from Germany, at a time when Poland was one of the largest empires in medieval Europe while "Germany" was just a scrappy bunch of merchants, related only by language (?High German? Low German? Dutch? Flemish? Swiss? Austrian?) and token fealty to a "Holy Roman Emperor" with delusions of Italian grandeur.

      Sofya

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      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
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    • Katherine Barich
      ... From: L.M. Kies Reply-To: sig@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 17:59:00 -0400 ... I don t follow. I think what you are
      Message 2 of 5 , May 12, 2007
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        ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
        From: "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...>
        Reply-To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 17:59:00 -0400

        >>It's probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east.
        >
        >In fact, the above statement is demonstrably false.

        I don't follow. I think what you are saying supports what I was trying to say which is don't assume that the flow of "fashion" was west to east, which seems to be a common misconception. Do you not agree with that?

        Katherine
      • L.M. Kies
        ... I absolutely do agree with you. My examples wouldn t make much sense otherwise. I should have said, The above assumption is demonstrably false. Sofya
        Message 3 of 5 , May 12, 2007
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          >------- Original Message -------
          >>
          >>>It's probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east.
          >>
          >>In fact, the above statement is demonstrably false.
          >
          >I don't follow. I think what you are saying supports what I was trying to say which is don't assume that the flow of "fashion" >was west to east, which seems to be a common misconception. Do you not agree with that?

          I absolutely do agree with you. My examples wouldn't make much sense otherwise. I should have said, "The above assumption is demonstrably false."

          Sofya



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        • Tim Nalley
          LOL! Those are your warning words in any situation.... Master so and so says ____________ ! Everytime I have asked Master so and so to comfirm content they
          Message 4 of 5 , May 14, 2007
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            LOL! Those are your warning words in any
            situation...."Master so and so says ____________"!
            Everytime I have asked Master so and so to comfirm
            content they usually end up either laughing or leaving
            on a bug hunt for the quoter with murder in their eye!

            Personally, I like my long sleeves and furlined
            shuba, which my friends have affectionately named my
            "wookiee coat". Beats freezing. Mark Twain once said
            that the coldest winter he ever spent was a summer in
            San Francisco. For me, the coldest May weekend I ever
            spent was a coronation in Chicago!
            'dok



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          • magdalenag56
            Vivat Sofya! You were in my thoughts recently with the extreme weather. I hope you were safe from all. French robe that resembles the shuba - there is also
            Message 5 of 5 , May 15, 2007
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              Vivat Sofya! You were in my thoughts recently with the extreme
              weather. I hope you were safe from all.

              French robe that resembles the shuba - there is also something in
              Polish clothing that is supposed to be Italian in style that could
              be seen as similar to the shuba. When I get home where my books are,
              I'll post pictures to my folder for you to see. It pops up in the
              Behem Codex as well as Polish Art (a nativity painting).

              I was reading to see if I could find a Polish Italian connection
              before Bona Sforza in the 1500's. What I found was the nobles who
              could afford to, sent their sons to Italy for their education.

              If anyone has access on the most recent NESAT conference held in
              Denmark 2006, there is an article I would like on the Flemish
              Broadcloth In Poland via the Hansa League. Another twisted costume
              connection.

              Magdalena Gdanska
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