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Polish dresses (was: Rat out a SIG member)

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  • quokkaqueen
    After mulling this over for a few days, I just have to bite -- are you referring to the early 16th century clothing styles? There certainly are a lot of
    Message 1 of 13 , May 11 4:09 AM
      After mulling this over for a few days, I just have to bite -- are you
      referring to the early 16th century clothing styles?

      There certainly are a lot of similarities between the late 15th
      century German 'Housebook' styles, and the clothing from the Behem
      Balthazar Codex. It would certainly appear at first glance that the
      Polish fashion followed the German.
      see
      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/quokkaqueen/behem/colour.jpg
      and
      http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/master/hausbuch/standing.html
      to compare.

      That isn't to say that they're identical -- I showed a lady who does
      Housebook-era German the Polish drawings and she was fascinated
      because all of these little details were different. So it wasn't a
      copy, just an influence.

      Of course, I'm an early period Baltic clothing geek, so I'm not nearly
      as expert as Magdalena is, just wondering if the 'Poland copied
      Germany' argument had anything to do with clothing styles, which I
      could entirely understand (if someone was just looking at clothing
      pictures and not paying close attention, for example.)

      Then again,I'm obsessed with clothing, so I might be barking up the
      wrong tree entirely.
      ~Asfridhr

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "magdalenag56" <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you all for the vivats. And no special treatment expected from
      > my Slavic "cousins." Special treatment is expected (though probably
      > not given) by those people who still believe Poland copied Germany.
      >
      > Magdalena
      >
    • magdalenag56
      The people who have made this statement have never offered further information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if they could give me more
      Message 2 of 13 , May 11 1:43 PM
        The people who have made this statement have never offered further
        information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if
        they could give me more direction like a book, webspage, painting
        some type of reference. I have never received anything further from
        anyone. That in itself makes me wonder. I will readily admit there
        are similarities as you say. But there are more similarities and
        copying between Poland and Hungary in my opinion, than Germany.
        Consider the men's zupan and menthe from Hungary. You also have to
        look at what part of Poland or even class the clothing is from.
        Western and Northern Poland will show a lot more of the German
        influence. But these are also the areas where Germany had a strong
        foothold in Poland.

        People should not go around making blanklet statements like this and
        they do all the time. So at this point, I don't know what "they" were
        referring to. Thank you for the compliment my Lady in calling me an
        expert. I'm just a petty noble who gets passionate about Poland. I
        would love to talk to your "friend" about the similarities and a
        differences between the German and Polish dresses. That's what I've
        been looking for. Feel free to forward my email to her.


        Magdalena
      • quokkaqueen
        Well, just so the links are up here so other people can look, here s what I ve found so far. (Mind you, I ve only been looking for a week or two, so this
        Message 3 of 13 , May 11 8:10 PM
          Well, just so the links are up here so other people can look, here's
          what I've found so far. (Mind you, I've only been looking for a week
          or two, so this certainly isn't exhaustive.)

          Firstly, there's the dress of Mary of Hungary, which has a gathered
          chemise, smooth bodice with a full skirt, and a V-neck styled front.
          http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/mary/index.htm
          http://www.virtue.to/guest_authors/hungarian.html
          http://www.aflightoffancy.com/maryandlajosgallery.html

          'Housebook'-style German gowns. Late 15th century, south German.
          http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/housebook/49-60.htm (has very small
          figures, but once again, v-neck overgowns.
          http://myra.hem.nu/costume/Documentation/Artist/HousebookMaster.htm
          (best source of Housebook images I've found.)
          http://snipurl.com/1k9u9
          (not Housebook, but v-necked with a black band of trim.)

          Swiss gowns, late 15th century
          http://www.in-nova-corpora.ch/naehstube/ma_15_text.htm
          http://www.in-nova-corpora.ch/naehstube/ma_15_gruen_text.htm

          So, what can be concluded about the 'German influence' of the Polish
          styles? The general characteristics are the same, with a chemise,
          fitted-looking bodice with a V neck, and a long skirt. But the
          Housebook drawings show concentrated pleating at the front, while the
          dresses from the Behem' codex seem to have gathering or pleating
          around the entire skirt. It does seem that the gathered-neckline style
          of German/Italian chemises was being worn underneath the dresses though,
          compare this Housebook image http://snipurl.com/1k9u5
          and
          http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/quokkaqueen/behem/tunicandturban.jpg
          The overcoats scream Hungarian/Eastern influence to me, however, but
          I'm more interested about what was worn underneath (so that I'm
          wearing something accurate underneath my coat.)

          I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about this. :)
          ~Asfridhr
          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "magdalenag56" <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
          >
          > The people who have made this statement have never offered further
          > information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if
          > they could give me more direction like a book, webspage, painting
          > some type of reference. I have never received anything further from
          > anyone.
          <<snip>>
          > Magdalena
          >
        • Katherine Barich
          It s probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east. For example the German schaube of the 16th century is linguistically related to the
          Message 4 of 13 , May 11 9:26 PM
            It's probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east. For example the German schaube of the 16th century is linguistically related to the slavic szuby. The long pointed shoes were styled 'crackowes' in the west after what either was/or was perceived to be a Polish fashion.

            In my work in 16th century German costume I find that there is are no strict borders to local style. The Prussians and Silesians look to wear styles that would be more at home in Poland than in Switzerland, Bavaria or Cleves. The rich Saxons influenced style in nearby Bohemia. The Swiss had more Italian influenced slashing. A German woman of Cologne wore a style closer to the Dutch.

            As far as Mary's gown, she is a granddaughter of the great Burgundian court, and daughter of Spain, but living in Brussels. This gown is probably closer to French than Polish if it is indeed her wedding dress and assumed to have been brought with her to Poland. A portrait of a 16th century Polish queen (Katherine?) would clearly be at home in the Imperial Court in Austria.

            I think it would be more fun to try to understand what the people of the land were wearing - court wear as shown in portraits could be influenced by the nationality of the bride. I like looking in the fashion books of the 16th century for ideas.

            Katherine

            ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
            From: "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...>
            Reply-To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 03:10:07 -0000

            >
          • magdalenag56
            The dates of the pictures are all very close together. It seems to me like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I ve never said there weren t similarities
            Message 5 of 13 , May 15 6:40 PM
              The dates of the pictures are all very close together. It seems to me
              like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I've never said there
              weren't similarities that can't be denied.

              What rankles me more than anything are self proclaimed experts who
              think the rest of the world hangs on their every word. Just their
              saying it makes it so. Present company excluded. This is some of the
              most informative sites I've received so far. Great sites.

              And I guess my Polish pride gets fired up. To me, for someeone to say
              that Poland copied Germany shows a very western centered perspective.
              As if nothing exists east of Germany.

              No one bats an eyelash over the English "copying" French fashion and
              adopting the French hood. Copying is done all the time.

              I can hardly wait to start working on the Flemish impact on Polish
              clothing. ;-)

              Magdalena
            • Lente
              Finally back on line. Congrats! So did you go oh god what did I do? when you got called up. he he that s usually my first gut reaction, Kathws
              Message 6 of 13 , May 17 10:20 AM
                Finally back on line.

                Congrats! So did you go 'oh god what did I do?' when you got called up.
                he he

                that's usually my first gut reaction,
                Kathws

                L.M. Kies wrote:
                > I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently got her AoA...
                >
                > Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!
                >
                > Sofya
              • magdalenag56
                Those people who know me know I am rarely speechless or whithout an opinion. I couldn t speak above a whisper! And I went completely blank. But I was with good
                Message 7 of 13 , May 18 6:41 AM
                  Those people who know me know I am rarely speechless or whithout an
                  opinion. I couldn't speak above a whisper! And I went completely blank.

                  But I was with good friends and a friend received her laurel at the
                  same event. We all went back to her vigil tent, relaxed and ate. A
                  good time was had by all

                  Magdalena
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