Polish dresses (was: Rat out a SIG member)
- After mulling this over for a few days, I just have to bite -- are you
referring to the early 16th century clothing styles?
There certainly are a lot of similarities between the late 15th
century German 'Housebook' styles, and the clothing from the Behem
Balthazar Codex. It would certainly appear at first glance that the
Polish fashion followed the German.
That isn't to say that they're identical -- I showed a lady who does
Housebook-era German the Polish drawings and she was fascinated
because all of these little details were different. So it wasn't a
copy, just an influence.
Of course, I'm an early period Baltic clothing geek, so I'm not nearly
as expert as Magdalena is, just wondering if the 'Poland copied
Germany' argument had anything to do with clothing styles, which I
could entirely understand (if someone was just looking at clothing
pictures and not paying close attention, for example.)
Then again,I'm obsessed with clothing, so I might be barking up the
wrong tree entirely.
--- In email@example.com, "magdalenag56" <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
> Thank you all for the vivats. And no special treatment expected from
> my Slavic "cousins." Special treatment is expected (though probably
> not given) by those people who still believe Poland copied Germany.
- The people who have made this statement have never offered further
information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if
they could give me more direction like a book, webspage, painting
some type of reference. I have never received anything further from
anyone. That in itself makes me wonder. I will readily admit there
are similarities as you say. But there are more similarities and
copying between Poland and Hungary in my opinion, than Germany.
Consider the men's zupan and menthe from Hungary. You also have to
look at what part of Poland or even class the clothing is from.
Western and Northern Poland will show a lot more of the German
influence. But these are also the areas where Germany had a strong
foothold in Poland.
People should not go around making blanklet statements like this and
they do all the time. So at this point, I don't know what "they" were
referring to. Thank you for the compliment my Lady in calling me an
expert. I'm just a petty noble who gets passionate about Poland. I
would love to talk to your "friend" about the similarities and a
differences between the German and Polish dresses. That's what I've
been looking for. Feel free to forward my email to her.
- Well, just so the links are up here so other people can look, here's
what I've found so far. (Mind you, I've only been looking for a week
or two, so this certainly isn't exhaustive.)
Firstly, there's the dress of Mary of Hungary, which has a gathered
chemise, smooth bodice with a full skirt, and a V-neck styled front.
'Housebook'-style German gowns. Late 15th century, south German.
http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/housebook/49-60.htm (has very small
figures, but once again, v-neck overgowns.
(best source of Housebook images I've found.)
(not Housebook, but v-necked with a black band of trim.)
Swiss gowns, late 15th century
So, what can be concluded about the 'German influence' of the Polish
styles? The general characteristics are the same, with a chemise,
fitted-looking bodice with a V neck, and a long skirt. But the
Housebook drawings show concentrated pleating at the front, while the
dresses from the Behem' codex seem to have gathering or pleating
around the entire skirt. It does seem that the gathered-neckline style
of German/Italian chemises was being worn underneath the dresses though,
compare this Housebook image http://snipurl.com/1k9u5
The overcoats scream Hungarian/Eastern influence to me, however, but
I'm more interested about what was worn underneath (so that I'm
wearing something accurate underneath my coat.)
I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about this. :)
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "magdalenag56" <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
> The people who have made this statement have never offered further
> information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if
> they could give me more direction like a book, webspage, painting
> some type of reference. I have never received anything further from
- It's probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east. For example the German schaube of the 16th century is linguistically related to the slavic szuby. The long pointed shoes were styled 'crackowes' in the west after what either was/or was perceived to be a Polish fashion.
In my work in 16th century German costume I find that there is are no strict borders to local style. The Prussians and Silesians look to wear styles that would be more at home in Poland than in Switzerland, Bavaria or Cleves. The rich Saxons influenced style in nearby Bohemia. The Swiss had more Italian influenced slashing. A German woman of Cologne wore a style closer to the Dutch.
As far as Mary's gown, she is a granddaughter of the great Burgundian court, and daughter of Spain, but living in Brussels. This gown is probably closer to French than Polish if it is indeed her wedding dress and assumed to have been brought with her to Poland. A portrait of a 16th century Polish queen (Katherine?) would clearly be at home in the Imperial Court in Austria.
I think it would be more fun to try to understand what the people of the land were wearing - court wear as shown in portraits could be influenced by the nationality of the bride. I like looking in the fashion books of the 16th century for ideas.
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 03:10:07 -0000
- The dates of the pictures are all very close together. It seems to me
like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I've never said there
weren't similarities that can't be denied.
What rankles me more than anything are self proclaimed experts who
think the rest of the world hangs on their every word. Just their
saying it makes it so. Present company excluded. This is some of the
most informative sites I've received so far. Great sites.
And I guess my Polish pride gets fired up. To me, for someeone to say
that Poland copied Germany shows a very western centered perspective.
As if nothing exists east of Germany.
No one bats an eyelash over the English "copying" French fashion and
adopting the French hood. Copying is done all the time.
I can hardly wait to start working on the Flemish impact on Polish
- Finally back on line.
Congrats! So did you go 'oh god what did I do?' when you got called up.
that's usually my first gut reaction,
L.M. Kies wrote:
> I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently got her AoA...
> Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!
- Those people who know me know I am rarely speechless or whithout an
opinion. I couldn't speak above a whisper! And I went completely blank.
But I was with good friends and a friend received her laurel at the
same event. We all went back to her vigil tent, relaxed and ate. A
good time was had by all