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Re: [sig] Rat out a SIG member

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  • jjbober4@patmedia.net
    If this is the one I m thinking of, I just hope my student got the document (scroll) done on time! Jan On Thu May 3 16:09 , Tim Nalley sent: Does this mean
    Message 1 of 13 , May 3, 2007
      If this is the one I'm thinking of, I just hope my student got the document
      (scroll) done on time!

      Jan

      On Thu May 3 16:09 , Tim Nalley sent:

      Does this mean that we all owe the newest Pani a
      respectful bow at the Pennsic SIG meeting????
      'dok
      --- Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

      > Congrats Pani Magdalena!
      >
      > --Sfandra
      >
      >
      >
      > --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently
      > > got her AoA...
      > >
      > > Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!
      > >
      > > Sofya
    • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
      Vivat - PANI Magdalena! -- Warder Zygmunt Nadratowski The Lord has granted me with a vivid imagination and bad eyesight. The combination makes for excellent
      Message 2 of 13 , May 4, 2007
        Vivat - PANI Magdalena!

        --
        Warder Zygmunt Nadratowski
        The Lord has granted me with a vivid imagination and bad eyesight. The
        combination makes for excellent viewing of armour on the SCA field.
        Servant of His Highness Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
        SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • magdalenag56
        Thank you all for the vivats. And no special treatment expected from my Slavic cousins. Special treatment is expected (though probably not given) by those
        Message 3 of 13 , May 6, 2007
          Thank you all for the vivats. And no special treatment expected from
          my Slavic "cousins." Special treatment is expected (though probably
          not given) by those people who still believe Poland copied Germany.

          Magdalena
        • quokkaqueen
          After mulling this over for a few days, I just have to bite -- are you referring to the early 16th century clothing styles? There certainly are a lot of
          Message 4 of 13 , May 11, 2007
            After mulling this over for a few days, I just have to bite -- are you
            referring to the early 16th century clothing styles?

            There certainly are a lot of similarities between the late 15th
            century German 'Housebook' styles, and the clothing from the Behem
            Balthazar Codex. It would certainly appear at first glance that the
            Polish fashion followed the German.
            see
            http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/quokkaqueen/behem/colour.jpg
            and
            http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/master/hausbuch/standing.html
            to compare.

            That isn't to say that they're identical -- I showed a lady who does
            Housebook-era German the Polish drawings and she was fascinated
            because all of these little details were different. So it wasn't a
            copy, just an influence.

            Of course, I'm an early period Baltic clothing geek, so I'm not nearly
            as expert as Magdalena is, just wondering if the 'Poland copied
            Germany' argument had anything to do with clothing styles, which I
            could entirely understand (if someone was just looking at clothing
            pictures and not paying close attention, for example.)

            Then again,I'm obsessed with clothing, so I might be barking up the
            wrong tree entirely.
            ~Asfridhr

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "magdalenag56" <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thank you all for the vivats. And no special treatment expected from
            > my Slavic "cousins." Special treatment is expected (though probably
            > not given) by those people who still believe Poland copied Germany.
            >
            > Magdalena
            >
          • magdalenag56
            The people who have made this statement have never offered further information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if they could give me more
            Message 5 of 13 , May 11, 2007
              The people who have made this statement have never offered further
              information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if
              they could give me more direction like a book, webspage, painting
              some type of reference. I have never received anything further from
              anyone. That in itself makes me wonder. I will readily admit there
              are similarities as you say. But there are more similarities and
              copying between Poland and Hungary in my opinion, than Germany.
              Consider the men's zupan and menthe from Hungary. You also have to
              look at what part of Poland or even class the clothing is from.
              Western and Northern Poland will show a lot more of the German
              influence. But these are also the areas where Germany had a strong
              foothold in Poland.

              People should not go around making blanklet statements like this and
              they do all the time. So at this point, I don't know what "they" were
              referring to. Thank you for the compliment my Lady in calling me an
              expert. I'm just a petty noble who gets passionate about Poland. I
              would love to talk to your "friend" about the similarities and a
              differences between the German and Polish dresses. That's what I've
              been looking for. Feel free to forward my email to her.


              Magdalena
            • quokkaqueen
              Well, just so the links are up here so other people can look, here s what I ve found so far. (Mind you, I ve only been looking for a week or two, so this
              Message 6 of 13 , May 11, 2007
                Well, just so the links are up here so other people can look, here's
                what I've found so far. (Mind you, I've only been looking for a week
                or two, so this certainly isn't exhaustive.)

                Firstly, there's the dress of Mary of Hungary, which has a gathered
                chemise, smooth bodice with a full skirt, and a V-neck styled front.
                http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/mary/index.htm
                http://www.virtue.to/guest_authors/hungarian.html
                http://www.aflightoffancy.com/maryandlajosgallery.html

                'Housebook'-style German gowns. Late 15th century, south German.
                http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/housebook/49-60.htm (has very small
                figures, but once again, v-neck overgowns.
                http://myra.hem.nu/costume/Documentation/Artist/HousebookMaster.htm
                (best source of Housebook images I've found.)
                http://snipurl.com/1k9u9
                (not Housebook, but v-necked with a black band of trim.)

                Swiss gowns, late 15th century
                http://www.in-nova-corpora.ch/naehstube/ma_15_text.htm
                http://www.in-nova-corpora.ch/naehstube/ma_15_gruen_text.htm

                So, what can be concluded about the 'German influence' of the Polish
                styles? The general characteristics are the same, with a chemise,
                fitted-looking bodice with a V neck, and a long skirt. But the
                Housebook drawings show concentrated pleating at the front, while the
                dresses from the Behem' codex seem to have gathering or pleating
                around the entire skirt. It does seem that the gathered-neckline style
                of German/Italian chemises was being worn underneath the dresses though,
                compare this Housebook image http://snipurl.com/1k9u5
                and
                http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/quokkaqueen/behem/tunicandturban.jpg
                The overcoats scream Hungarian/Eastern influence to me, however, but
                I'm more interested about what was worn underneath (so that I'm
                wearing something accurate underneath my coat.)

                I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about this. :)
                ~Asfridhr
                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "magdalenag56" <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
                >
                > The people who have made this statement have never offered further
                > information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if
                > they could give me more direction like a book, webspage, painting
                > some type of reference. I have never received anything further from
                > anyone.
                <<snip>>
                > Magdalena
                >
              • Katherine Barich
                It s probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east. For example the German schaube of the 16th century is linguistically related to the
                Message 7 of 13 , May 11, 2007
                  It's probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east. For example the German schaube of the 16th century is linguistically related to the slavic szuby. The long pointed shoes were styled 'crackowes' in the west after what either was/or was perceived to be a Polish fashion.

                  In my work in 16th century German costume I find that there is are no strict borders to local style. The Prussians and Silesians look to wear styles that would be more at home in Poland than in Switzerland, Bavaria or Cleves. The rich Saxons influenced style in nearby Bohemia. The Swiss had more Italian influenced slashing. A German woman of Cologne wore a style closer to the Dutch.

                  As far as Mary's gown, she is a granddaughter of the great Burgundian court, and daughter of Spain, but living in Brussels. This gown is probably closer to French than Polish if it is indeed her wedding dress and assumed to have been brought with her to Poland. A portrait of a 16th century Polish queen (Katherine?) would clearly be at home in the Imperial Court in Austria.

                  I think it would be more fun to try to understand what the people of the land were wearing - court wear as shown in portraits could be influenced by the nationality of the bride. I like looking in the fashion books of the 16th century for ideas.

                  Katherine

                  ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                  From: "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...>
                  Reply-To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 03:10:07 -0000

                  >
                • magdalenag56
                  The dates of the pictures are all very close together. It seems to me like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I ve never said there weren t similarities
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 15, 2007
                    The dates of the pictures are all very close together. It seems to me
                    like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I've never said there
                    weren't similarities that can't be denied.

                    What rankles me more than anything are self proclaimed experts who
                    think the rest of the world hangs on their every word. Just their
                    saying it makes it so. Present company excluded. This is some of the
                    most informative sites I've received so far. Great sites.

                    And I guess my Polish pride gets fired up. To me, for someeone to say
                    that Poland copied Germany shows a very western centered perspective.
                    As if nothing exists east of Germany.

                    No one bats an eyelash over the English "copying" French fashion and
                    adopting the French hood. Copying is done all the time.

                    I can hardly wait to start working on the Flemish impact on Polish
                    clothing. ;-)

                    Magdalena
                  • Lente
                    Finally back on line. Congrats! So did you go oh god what did I do? when you got called up. he he that s usually my first gut reaction, Kathws
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 17, 2007
                      Finally back on line.

                      Congrats! So did you go 'oh god what did I do?' when you got called up.
                      he he

                      that's usually my first gut reaction,
                      Kathws

                      L.M. Kies wrote:
                      > I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently got her AoA...
                      >
                      > Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!
                      >
                      > Sofya
                    • magdalenag56
                      Those people who know me know I am rarely speechless or whithout an opinion. I couldn t speak above a whisper! And I went completely blank. But I was with good
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 18, 2007
                        Those people who know me know I am rarely speechless or whithout an
                        opinion. I couldn't speak above a whisper! And I went completely blank.

                        But I was with good friends and a friend received her laurel at the
                        same event. We all went back to her vigil tent, relaxed and ate. A
                        good time was had by all

                        Magdalena
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