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  • L.M. Kies
    I ve heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently got her AoA... Congratulations to Pani Magdalena! Sofya ... Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus Mason
    Message 1 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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      I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently got her AoA...

      Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!

      Sofya

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      --------------------------------------------------------------------





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sfandra
      Congrats Pani Magdalena! --Sfandra ... ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir Haus
      Message 2 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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        Congrats Pani Magdalena!

        --Sfandra



        --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

        > I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently
        > got her AoA...
        >
        > Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!
        >
        > Sofya
        >
        >
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
        > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
        > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        >
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        ******************
        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
        KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
        Haus Von Drakenklaue
        Kingdom of the East
        ******************
        Never 'pearl' your butt.

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Tim Nalley
        Does this mean that we all owe the newest Pani a respectful bow at the Pennsic SIG meeting???? dok ... __________________________________________________ Do
        Message 3 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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          Does this mean that we all owe the newest Pani a
          respectful bow at the Pennsic SIG meeting????
          'dok
          --- Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

          > Congrats Pani Magdalena!
          >
          > --Sfandra
          >
          >
          >
          > --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently
          > > got her AoA...
          > >
          > > Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!
          > >
          > > Sofya
          > >
          > >
          >
          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
          > > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
          > > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
          > > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
          > >
          >
          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > > removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > ******************
          > Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
          > KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
          > Haus Von Drakenklaue
          > Kingdom of the East
          > ******************
          > Never 'pearl' your butt.
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
          > protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • jjbober4@patmedia.net
          If this is the one I m thinking of, I just hope my student got the document (scroll) done on time! Jan On Thu May 3 16:09 , Tim Nalley sent: Does this mean
          Message 4 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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            If this is the one I'm thinking of, I just hope my student got the document
            (scroll) done on time!

            Jan

            On Thu May 3 16:09 , Tim Nalley sent:

            Does this mean that we all owe the newest Pani a
            respectful bow at the Pennsic SIG meeting????
            'dok
            --- Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

            > Congrats Pani Magdalena!
            >
            > --Sfandra
            >
            >
            >
            > --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
            >
            > > I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently
            > > got her AoA...
            > >
            > > Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!
            > >
            > > Sofya
          • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
            Vivat - PANI Magdalena! -- Warder Zygmunt Nadratowski The Lord has granted me with a vivid imagination and bad eyesight. The combination makes for excellent
            Message 5 of 13 , May 4, 2007
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              Vivat - PANI Magdalena!

              --
              Warder Zygmunt Nadratowski
              The Lord has granted me with a vivid imagination and bad eyesight. The
              combination makes for excellent viewing of armour on the SCA field.
              Servant of His Highness Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
              SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • magdalenag56
              Thank you all for the vivats. And no special treatment expected from my Slavic cousins. Special treatment is expected (though probably not given) by those
              Message 6 of 13 , May 6, 2007
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                Thank you all for the vivats. And no special treatment expected from
                my Slavic "cousins." Special treatment is expected (though probably
                not given) by those people who still believe Poland copied Germany.

                Magdalena
              • quokkaqueen
                After mulling this over for a few days, I just have to bite -- are you referring to the early 16th century clothing styles? There certainly are a lot of
                Message 7 of 13 , May 11, 2007
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                  After mulling this over for a few days, I just have to bite -- are you
                  referring to the early 16th century clothing styles?

                  There certainly are a lot of similarities between the late 15th
                  century German 'Housebook' styles, and the clothing from the Behem
                  Balthazar Codex. It would certainly appear at first glance that the
                  Polish fashion followed the German.
                  see
                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/quokkaqueen/behem/colour.jpg
                  and
                  http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/master/hausbuch/standing.html
                  to compare.

                  That isn't to say that they're identical -- I showed a lady who does
                  Housebook-era German the Polish drawings and she was fascinated
                  because all of these little details were different. So it wasn't a
                  copy, just an influence.

                  Of course, I'm an early period Baltic clothing geek, so I'm not nearly
                  as expert as Magdalena is, just wondering if the 'Poland copied
                  Germany' argument had anything to do with clothing styles, which I
                  could entirely understand (if someone was just looking at clothing
                  pictures and not paying close attention, for example.)

                  Then again,I'm obsessed with clothing, so I might be barking up the
                  wrong tree entirely.
                  ~Asfridhr

                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "magdalenag56" <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you all for the vivats. And no special treatment expected from
                  > my Slavic "cousins." Special treatment is expected (though probably
                  > not given) by those people who still believe Poland copied Germany.
                  >
                  > Magdalena
                  >
                • magdalenag56
                  The people who have made this statement have never offered further information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if they could give me more
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 11, 2007
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                    The people who have made this statement have never offered further
                    information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if
                    they could give me more direction like a book, webspage, painting
                    some type of reference. I have never received anything further from
                    anyone. That in itself makes me wonder. I will readily admit there
                    are similarities as you say. But there are more similarities and
                    copying between Poland and Hungary in my opinion, than Germany.
                    Consider the men's zupan and menthe from Hungary. You also have to
                    look at what part of Poland or even class the clothing is from.
                    Western and Northern Poland will show a lot more of the German
                    influence. But these are also the areas where Germany had a strong
                    foothold in Poland.

                    People should not go around making blanklet statements like this and
                    they do all the time. So at this point, I don't know what "they" were
                    referring to. Thank you for the compliment my Lady in calling me an
                    expert. I'm just a petty noble who gets passionate about Poland. I
                    would love to talk to your "friend" about the similarities and a
                    differences between the German and Polish dresses. That's what I've
                    been looking for. Feel free to forward my email to her.


                    Magdalena
                  • quokkaqueen
                    Well, just so the links are up here so other people can look, here s what I ve found so far. (Mind you, I ve only been looking for a week or two, so this
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 11, 2007
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                      Well, just so the links are up here so other people can look, here's
                      what I've found so far. (Mind you, I've only been looking for a week
                      or two, so this certainly isn't exhaustive.)

                      Firstly, there's the dress of Mary of Hungary, which has a gathered
                      chemise, smooth bodice with a full skirt, and a V-neck styled front.
                      http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/mary/index.htm
                      http://www.virtue.to/guest_authors/hungarian.html
                      http://www.aflightoffancy.com/maryandlajosgallery.html

                      'Housebook'-style German gowns. Late 15th century, south German.
                      http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/housebook/49-60.htm (has very small
                      figures, but once again, v-neck overgowns.
                      http://myra.hem.nu/costume/Documentation/Artist/HousebookMaster.htm
                      (best source of Housebook images I've found.)
                      http://snipurl.com/1k9u9
                      (not Housebook, but v-necked with a black band of trim.)

                      Swiss gowns, late 15th century
                      http://www.in-nova-corpora.ch/naehstube/ma_15_text.htm
                      http://www.in-nova-corpora.ch/naehstube/ma_15_gruen_text.htm

                      So, what can be concluded about the 'German influence' of the Polish
                      styles? The general characteristics are the same, with a chemise,
                      fitted-looking bodice with a V neck, and a long skirt. But the
                      Housebook drawings show concentrated pleating at the front, while the
                      dresses from the Behem' codex seem to have gathering or pleating
                      around the entire skirt. It does seem that the gathered-neckline style
                      of German/Italian chemises was being worn underneath the dresses though,
                      compare this Housebook image http://snipurl.com/1k9u5
                      and
                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/quokkaqueen/behem/tunicandturban.jpg
                      The overcoats scream Hungarian/Eastern influence to me, however, but
                      I'm more interested about what was worn underneath (so that I'm
                      wearing something accurate underneath my coat.)

                      I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about this. :)
                      ~Asfridhr
                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "magdalenag56" <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The people who have made this statement have never offered further
                      > information or direction. Even when I have emailed them and asked if
                      > they could give me more direction like a book, webspage, painting
                      > some type of reference. I have never received anything further from
                      > anyone.
                      <<snip>>
                      > Magdalena
                      >
                    • Katherine Barich
                      It s probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east. For example the German schaube of the 16th century is linguistically related to the
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 11, 2007
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                        It's probably not always correct to assume styles travelled west to east. For example the German schaube of the 16th century is linguistically related to the slavic szuby. The long pointed shoes were styled 'crackowes' in the west after what either was/or was perceived to be a Polish fashion.

                        In my work in 16th century German costume I find that there is are no strict borders to local style. The Prussians and Silesians look to wear styles that would be more at home in Poland than in Switzerland, Bavaria or Cleves. The rich Saxons influenced style in nearby Bohemia. The Swiss had more Italian influenced slashing. A German woman of Cologne wore a style closer to the Dutch.

                        As far as Mary's gown, she is a granddaughter of the great Burgundian court, and daughter of Spain, but living in Brussels. This gown is probably closer to French than Polish if it is indeed her wedding dress and assumed to have been brought with her to Poland. A portrait of a 16th century Polish queen (Katherine?) would clearly be at home in the Imperial Court in Austria.

                        I think it would be more fun to try to understand what the people of the land were wearing - court wear as shown in portraits could be influenced by the nationality of the bride. I like looking in the fashion books of the 16th century for ideas.

                        Katherine

                        ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                        From: "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...>
                        Reply-To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 03:10:07 -0000

                        >
                      • magdalenag56
                        The dates of the pictures are all very close together. It seems to me like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I ve never said there weren t similarities
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 15, 2007
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                          The dates of the pictures are all very close together. It seems to me
                          like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I've never said there
                          weren't similarities that can't be denied.

                          What rankles me more than anything are self proclaimed experts who
                          think the rest of the world hangs on their every word. Just their
                          saying it makes it so. Present company excluded. This is some of the
                          most informative sites I've received so far. Great sites.

                          And I guess my Polish pride gets fired up. To me, for someeone to say
                          that Poland copied Germany shows a very western centered perspective.
                          As if nothing exists east of Germany.

                          No one bats an eyelash over the English "copying" French fashion and
                          adopting the French hood. Copying is done all the time.

                          I can hardly wait to start working on the Flemish impact on Polish
                          clothing. ;-)

                          Magdalena
                        • Lente
                          Finally back on line. Congrats! So did you go oh god what did I do? when you got called up. he he that s usually my first gut reaction, Kathws
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 17, 2007
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                            Finally back on line.

                            Congrats! So did you go 'oh god what did I do?' when you got called up.
                            he he

                            that's usually my first gut reaction,
                            Kathws

                            L.M. Kies wrote:
                            > I've heard that our own Magdalena Gdanska recently got her AoA...
                            >
                            > Congratulations to Pani Magdalena!
                            >
                            > Sofya
                          • magdalenag56
                            Those people who know me know I am rarely speechless or whithout an opinion. I couldn t speak above a whisper! And I went completely blank. But I was with good
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 18, 2007
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                              Those people who know me know I am rarely speechless or whithout an
                              opinion. I couldn't speak above a whisper! And I went completely blank.

                              But I was with good friends and a friend received her laurel at the
                              same event. We all went back to her vigil tent, relaxed and ate. A
                              good time was had by all

                              Magdalena
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