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RE: Re: [sig] Baronial Title in Russian

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  • L.M. Kies
    Poklon ot Sofya! I ve copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 17 3:57 PM
      Poklon ot Sofya!

      I've copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the folks who put together the official alternate title list. Comment at will. :-)

      Addressing nobility:
      Predslava says " Gospodin is OK as a form of address, NOT as a *title*. You could actually try the vocative: gospodine [gohs-poh-DEE-neh], as in "hey, your lordship!" (well, OK, a little more polite than that!)
      "Vy" as a respectful form of address is way OOP! Even in the 18th century, satyrists derided the need to "use the plural to address a single person". In period, it's "ty" for one person (see Spanish "tu", German "du" etc), and "vy" for a plural (Spanish "vosotros", German "ihr" etc).
      Ksenia Alexandrova says: Dvoryanin (dvoryanka) would be a useful term for minor nobility, and as a general term of address for dukes and Counts, but usually refereed to lesser nobility. It may be translated as "courtsman." It was more normal for female family members of the courtiers to be identified as "daughter of dvoryanin ______________." This term of address referred to the courtiers of the Tsar originally, in perhaps the thirteenth century. Then, later, it became a general term for everyone noble other than the higher nobility.
      There was another term that was used to identify lesser nobility during our period was "boyarin" and boyarinya" for females. It is an old word coming originally from the council of elders for the dukes/princes. It went out of use in the 1600s or so, because they exterminated all the Boyars. The lucky ones, apparently, became dvoryanin.
      Predslava adds: "Dvorianin" is really more of a generic term than a title or a form of address. Or a descriptive term in late period.
      "Boyarin" is a term whose meaning changed quite a bit during our period, from meaning "high notable" -- a sort-of title that could come and go in a person's life, and even more so in family history (it was more of an indication of a person's social and political standing than a real title) all the way to a title defined by law and bestowed by the tsar.
      The (official) Alternate List of Titles is by no means satisfactory because too much time is covered. "Boyarin" would be perfectly adequate for an AoA recipient if the persona is early, but not at all for a late-period persona, so it's been dropped because it generated more arguments than it's worth.
      Personally, I don't like (for my persona) pomestnitsa, so I don't use it. I might use "boiarynia" anyway -- it would be unofficial, and might bring up arguments with other Russian personae, so I just don't use anything, and let myself be called Lady in "foreign" courts. In a "Russian court" situation, I would just make sure I was called by my given name + patronymic (Predslava Vydrina), that's honorable enough... We (Russian personae) are rather like foreigners in the England/France-oriented SCA...

      >I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
      >Boyarina Aleksandra
      >An Tir
      >>I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
      >>accepted here in AnTir;
      >>Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)

      K vashim uslugam,


      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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