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RE: [sig] Baronial Title in Russian

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  • L.M. Kies
    Sfandra, poklon ot Sofya! Congratulations! ... It is a period distinction. I ve been reading all about Posadniks and Voevodas in the Novgorod Chronicle the
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 17 8:30 AM
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      Sfandra, poklon ot Sofya!

      Congratulations!

      >What is the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
      >Is it a period distinction?

      It is a period distinction. I've been reading all about Posadniks and Voevodas in the Novgorod Chronicle the last few days. And the committee that put together the list worked very hard to try to keep it period.

      Please see this version of the Alternate Title List for the relevant notes:
      http://knowledgepages.scadianrus.org/titles.html





      Baron
      Posadnik
      Посадник
      poh-sahd-neek
      "governor of a city-state"

      Voevoda
      Воевода
      voy-yeh-vohd-ah
      Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones

      Baroness
      Posadnitsa
      Посадница
      poh-sahd-nee-tsah
      "governor of a city-state"

      Voevoda
      Воевода
      voy-yeh-vohd-ah
      Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones
      I.e. the "mayor" of Novgorod was a Posadnik. The "general" of their army was a Voevoda.

      K tvoim uslugam,

      Sofya

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      --------------------------------------------------------------------



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sfandra
      Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa. And yes, most of Dok s suggestions re: coronets had gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I was
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 17 9:30 AM
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        Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa.

        And yes, most of 'Dok's suggestions re: coronets had
        gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I
        was gifted with quite possibly the Known World's Most
        Obnoxious Coronet at my elevation. And I love it!
        But it sure is, um, ostentatious. I'll stick a shot
        of it in the Photos: Sfandra's Stuff.

        Cheers,
        Sfandra

        __________________________________________________
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      • aldo
        posadnik and posadnitsa was actually as Paul has said a term for mayor and was mainly used in the North of the Russian Land i.e.Novgorod the Great or Polotsk.
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 17 9:41 AM
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          posadnik and posadnitsa was actually as Paul has said a term for mayor and was mainly used in the North of the Russian Land i.e.Novgorod the Great or Polotsk. Posadnik was a public charge that the Vetche acclaimed each time a new posadnik had to be elected. As far as Novgorod is concerned, it was recognized as a real public charge till 1478 but after that date it became void as John the III of Moscow was the only one entitled to grant it.

          Ciao

          Aldo
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sfandra
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:34 PM
          Subject: RE: [sig] Baronial Title in Russian


          Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa.

          And yes, most of 'Dok's suggestions re: coronets had
          gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I
          was gifted with quite possibly the Known World's Most
          Obnoxious Coronet at my elevation. And I love it!
          But it sure is, um, ostentatious. I'll stick a shot
          of it in the Photos: Sfandra's Stuff.

          Cheers,
          Sfandra

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Marilee Humason
          I use Boyarina, which means petty noble . It is accepted here in AnTir; stasi ... Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 17 9:49 AM
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            I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
            accepted here in AnTir;
            stasi
            --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

            > Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while
            > voevoda is more like a
            > "military governor".
            >
            > At the time of the debate, we felt that the
            > understanding of the role
            > of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so
            > we argued that
            > either was acceptable. A posadnik implies
            > land-ownership, while
            > voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.
            >
            > There is probably a period distinction as well, but
            > I don't know it.
            >
            > YIS,
            > Paul Wickenden
            >
            > At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:
            >
            > >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
            > >once. :-D Must be a trend.
            > >
            > >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
            > >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
            > >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess
            > listed
            > >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
            > >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
            > >Is it a period distinction?
            > >
            > >Thanks,
            > >Sfandra
            > >
            > >******************
            > >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
            > >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
            > Drachenklaue
            > >Kingdom of the East
            > >******************
            > >Never 'pearl' your butt.
            > >
            > >__________________________________________________
            > >Do You Yahoo!?
            > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
            > protection around
            > ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >


            Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
          • JoAnna Buxton
            I also use Boyarina. It s easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce. My CB coronet is a melding of period silver filigree work that
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 17 2:41 PM
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              I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
              My CB coronet is a melding of period silver filigree work that curls to support large fresh water pearls & a bit of artistic license - it has copper 'firebird' feathers - a nod to my favorite folk tale. :)

              Boyarina Aleksandra
              An Tir

              Marilee Humason <stasiwa@...> wrote:
              I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
              accepted here in AnTir;
              stasi
              --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

              > Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while
              > voevoda is more like a
              > "military governor".
              >
              > At the time of the debate, we felt that the
              > understanding of the role
              > of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so
              > we argued that
              > either was acceptable. A posadnik implies
              > land-ownership, while
              > voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.
              >
              > There is probably a period distinction as well, but
              > I don't know it.
              >
              > YIS,
              > Paul Wickenden
              >
              > At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:
              >
              > >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
              > >once. :-D Must be a trend.
              > >
              > >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
              > >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
              > >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess
              > listed
              > >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
              > >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
              > >Is it a period distinction?
              > >
              > >Thanks,
              > >Sfandra
              > >
              > >******************
              > >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
              > >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
              > Drachenklaue
              > >Kingdom of the East
              > >******************
              > >Never 'pearl' your butt.
              > >
              > >__________________________________________________
              > >Do You Yahoo!?
              > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
              > protection around
              > ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >

              Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)





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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • L.M. Kies
              Poklon ot Sofya! I ve copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 17 3:57 PM
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                Poklon ot Sofya!

                I've copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the folks who put together the official alternate title list. Comment at will. :-)


                Addressing nobility:
                Predslava says " Gospodin is OK as a form of address, NOT as a *title*. You could actually try the vocative: gospodine [gohs-poh-DEE-neh], as in "hey, your lordship!" (well, OK, a little more polite than that!)
                "Vy" as a respectful form of address is way OOP! Even in the 18th century, satyrists derided the need to "use the plural to address a single person". In period, it's "ty" for one person (see Spanish "tu", German "du" etc), and "vy" for a plural (Spanish "vosotros", German "ihr" etc).
                Ksenia Alexandrova says: Dvoryanin (dvoryanka) would be a useful term for minor nobility, and as a general term of address for dukes and Counts, but usually refereed to lesser nobility. It may be translated as "courtsman." It was more normal for female family members of the courtiers to be identified as "daughter of dvoryanin ______________." This term of address referred to the courtiers of the Tsar originally, in perhaps the thirteenth century. Then, later, it became a general term for everyone noble other than the higher nobility.
                There was another term that was used to identify lesser nobility during our period was "boyarin" and boyarinya" for females. It is an old word coming originally from the council of elders for the dukes/princes. It went out of use in the 1600s or so, because they exterminated all the Boyars. The lucky ones, apparently, became dvoryanin.
                Predslava adds: "Dvorianin" is really more of a generic term than a title or a form of address. Or a descriptive term in late period.
                "Boyarin" is a term whose meaning changed quite a bit during our period, from meaning "high notable" -- a sort-of title that could come and go in a person's life, and even more so in family history (it was more of an indication of a person's social and political standing than a real title) all the way to a title defined by law and bestowed by the tsar.
                The (official) Alternate List of Titles is by no means satisfactory because too much time is covered. "Boyarin" would be perfectly adequate for an AoA recipient if the persona is early, but not at all for a late-period persona, so it's been dropped because it generated more arguments than it's worth.
                Personally, I don't like (for my persona) pomestnitsa, so I don't use it. I might use "boiarynia" anyway -- it would be unofficial, and might bring up arguments with other Russian personae, so I just don't use anything, and let myself be called Lady in "foreign" courts. In a "Russian court" situation, I would just make sure I was called by my given name + patronymic (Predslava Vydrina), that's honorable enough... We (Russian personae) are rather like foreigners in the England/France-oriented SCA...

                >
                >I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
                >
                >Boyarina Aleksandra
                >An Tir
                >
                >>I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                >>accepted here in AnTir;
                >>
                >>stasi
                >>
                >>Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)

                K vashim uslugam,

                Sofya

                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                --------------------------------------------------------------------




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