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Re: [sig] Eastern B. Ct. "coronet" ideas?

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  • Sfandra
    GAH! DOK! You just gave away my ideas! --Sfandra --also newly-minted CB (as of this past saturday) ... ****************** Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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      GAH! 'DOK! You just gave away my ideas!

      --Sfandra
      --also newly-minted CB (as of this past saturday)


      --- Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

      > Your Excellency, Soshka and Everyone,
      > I've been thinking and I have a couple twisted
      > but
      > creative potential remedies for this delimna (sp).
      > Its
      > a fact that silver hats abound and even though some
      > like yourself and others busted ass to earn theirs,
      > its always been a perk and the whim of the Crown
      > ultimately. And almost impossible to differentiate
      > your hard work from those whose main qualification
      > was
      > the pucker factor. Crude but true.
      > So, how to break with the herd to show that you
      > have talents while also maintaining your eastern
      > persona? As the Most Esteemed Sofya pointed out, the
      > Grand Prince was often pictured in a fur hat and if
      > I
      > remember Ospery #222 on the Golden Horde and
      > Timiruds,
      > (yea, I know) there were several hat styles
      > pictured.
      > Maybe that could be an avenue to meet your needs?
      > What if you used a silver organza fabric or
      > silver twisted wire couched down to a fur brimed
      > hat?
      > If you combined the twisted "silver" wire couched
      > down
      > to a loose weave silver metallic fabric from a craft
      > store and a really nice fur edging then your could
      > situate six of anything above the fur and have a
      > really eyecatching coronet? Add some freshwater
      > pearls
      > from Firemountain.com and/or some drilled cabachons,
      > all of which would be supported by the silver wire
      > and
      > you have a "coronet" that would make a Grand Prince
      > drool.
      > Or do a silver brim on a hat(s) with pearling or
      > couchwork and have a variety of "coronets". Maybe
      > you
      > could promote an aspiring artisan of your
      > acquantence
      > or even challenge yourself to make the coronet? This
      > could be a lot of pluses all around! Besides, who
      > knows? You might inspire others to imitate and start
      > a
      > trend?????
      > YIS,
      > 'dok
      >

      ******************
      Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
      Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
      Kingdom of the East
      ******************
      Never 'pearl' your butt.

      __________________________________________________
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      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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    • Paul W Goldschmidt
      Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a mayor while voevoda is more like a military governor . At the time of the debate, we felt that the understanding of the
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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        Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while voevoda is more like a
        "military governor".

        At the time of the debate, we felt that the understanding of the role
        of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so we argued that
        either was acceptable. A posadnik implies land-ownership, while
        voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.

        There is probably a period distinction as well, but I don't know it.

        YIS,
        Paul Wickenden

        At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:

        >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
        >once. :-D Must be a trend.
        >
        >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
        >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
        >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess listed
        >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
        >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
        >Is it a period distinction?
        >
        >Thanks,
        >Sfandra
        >
        >******************
        >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
        >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
        >Kingdom of the East
        >******************
        >Never 'pearl' your butt.
        >
        >__________________________________________________
        >Do You Yahoo!?
        >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • L.M. Kies
        Sfandra, poklon ot Sofya! Congratulations! ... It is a period distinction. I ve been reading all about Posadniks and Voevodas in the Novgorod Chronicle the
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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          Sfandra, poklon ot Sofya!

          Congratulations!

          >What is the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
          >Is it a period distinction?

          It is a period distinction. I've been reading all about Posadniks and Voevodas in the Novgorod Chronicle the last few days. And the committee that put together the list worked very hard to try to keep it period.

          Please see this version of the Alternate Title List for the relevant notes:
          http://knowledgepages.scadianrus.org/titles.html





          Baron
          Posadnik
          Посадник
          poh-sahd-neek
          "governor of a city-state"

          Voevoda
          Воевода
          voy-yeh-vohd-ah
          Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones

          Baroness
          Posadnitsa
          Посадница
          poh-sahd-nee-tsah
          "governor of a city-state"

          Voevoda
          Воевода
          voy-yeh-vohd-ah
          Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones
          I.e. the "mayor" of Novgorod was a Posadnik. The "general" of their army was a Voevoda.

          K tvoim uslugam,

          Sofya

          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
          --------------------------------------------------------------------



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sfandra
          Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa. And yes, most of Dok s suggestions re: coronets had gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I was
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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            Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa.

            And yes, most of 'Dok's suggestions re: coronets had
            gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I
            was gifted with quite possibly the Known World's Most
            Obnoxious Coronet at my elevation. And I love it!
            But it sure is, um, ostentatious. I'll stick a shot
            of it in the Photos: Sfandra's Stuff.

            Cheers,
            Sfandra

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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          • aldo
            posadnik and posadnitsa was actually as Paul has said a term for mayor and was mainly used in the North of the Russian Land i.e.Novgorod the Great or Polotsk.
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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              posadnik and posadnitsa was actually as Paul has said a term for mayor and was mainly used in the North of the Russian Land i.e.Novgorod the Great or Polotsk. Posadnik was a public charge that the Vetche acclaimed each time a new posadnik had to be elected. As far as Novgorod is concerned, it was recognized as a real public charge till 1478 but after that date it became void as John the III of Moscow was the only one entitled to grant it.

              Ciao

              Aldo
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sfandra
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:34 PM
              Subject: RE: [sig] Baronial Title in Russian


              Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa.

              And yes, most of 'Dok's suggestions re: coronets had
              gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I
              was gifted with quite possibly the Known World's Most
              Obnoxious Coronet at my elevation. And I love it!
              But it sure is, um, ostentatious. I'll stick a shot
              of it in the Photos: Sfandra's Stuff.

              Cheers,
              Sfandra

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Marilee Humason
              I use Boyarina, which means petty noble . It is accepted here in AnTir; stasi ... Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                accepted here in AnTir;
                stasi
                --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                > Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while
                > voevoda is more like a
                > "military governor".
                >
                > At the time of the debate, we felt that the
                > understanding of the role
                > of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so
                > we argued that
                > either was acceptable. A posadnik implies
                > land-ownership, while
                > voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.
                >
                > There is probably a period distinction as well, but
                > I don't know it.
                >
                > YIS,
                > Paul Wickenden
                >
                > At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:
                >
                > >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
                > >once. :-D Must be a trend.
                > >
                > >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
                > >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
                > >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess
                > listed
                > >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
                > >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                > >Is it a period distinction?
                > >
                > >Thanks,
                > >Sfandra
                > >
                > >******************
                > >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                > >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
                > Drachenklaue
                > >Kingdom of the East
                > >******************
                > >Never 'pearl' your butt.
                > >
                > >__________________________________________________
                > >Do You Yahoo!?
                > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                > protection around
                > ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >


                Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
              • JoAnna Buxton
                I also use Boyarina. It s easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce. My CB coronet is a melding of period silver filigree work that
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                  I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
                  My CB coronet is a melding of period silver filigree work that curls to support large fresh water pearls & a bit of artistic license - it has copper 'firebird' feathers - a nod to my favorite folk tale. :)

                  Boyarina Aleksandra
                  An Tir

                  Marilee Humason <stasiwa@...> wrote:
                  I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                  accepted here in AnTir;
                  stasi
                  --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                  > Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while
                  > voevoda is more like a
                  > "military governor".
                  >
                  > At the time of the debate, we felt that the
                  > understanding of the role
                  > of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so
                  > we argued that
                  > either was acceptable. A posadnik implies
                  > land-ownership, while
                  > voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.
                  >
                  > There is probably a period distinction as well, but
                  > I don't know it.
                  >
                  > YIS,
                  > Paul Wickenden
                  >
                  > At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:
                  >
                  > >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
                  > >once. :-D Must be a trend.
                  > >
                  > >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
                  > >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
                  > >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess
                  > listed
                  > >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
                  > >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                  > >Is it a period distinction?
                  > >
                  > >Thanks,
                  > >Sfandra
                  > >
                  > >******************
                  > >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                  > >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
                  > Drachenklaue
                  > >Kingdom of the East
                  > >******************
                  > >Never 'pearl' your butt.
                  > >
                  > >__________________________________________________
                  > >Do You Yahoo!?
                  > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                  > protection around
                  > ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >

                  Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)





                  ---------------------------------
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                  Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • L.M. Kies
                  Poklon ot Sofya! I ve copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                    Poklon ot Sofya!

                    I've copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the folks who put together the official alternate title list. Comment at will. :-)


                    Addressing nobility:
                    Predslava says " Gospodin is OK as a form of address, NOT as a *title*. You could actually try the vocative: gospodine [gohs-poh-DEE-neh], as in "hey, your lordship!" (well, OK, a little more polite than that!)
                    "Vy" as a respectful form of address is way OOP! Even in the 18th century, satyrists derided the need to "use the plural to address a single person". In period, it's "ty" for one person (see Spanish "tu", German "du" etc), and "vy" for a plural (Spanish "vosotros", German "ihr" etc).
                    Ksenia Alexandrova says: Dvoryanin (dvoryanka) would be a useful term for minor nobility, and as a general term of address for dukes and Counts, but usually refereed to lesser nobility. It may be translated as "courtsman." It was more normal for female family members of the courtiers to be identified as "daughter of dvoryanin ______________." This term of address referred to the courtiers of the Tsar originally, in perhaps the thirteenth century. Then, later, it became a general term for everyone noble other than the higher nobility.
                    There was another term that was used to identify lesser nobility during our period was "boyarin" and boyarinya" for females. It is an old word coming originally from the council of elders for the dukes/princes. It went out of use in the 1600s or so, because they exterminated all the Boyars. The lucky ones, apparently, became dvoryanin.
                    Predslava adds: "Dvorianin" is really more of a generic term than a title or a form of address. Or a descriptive term in late period.
                    "Boyarin" is a term whose meaning changed quite a bit during our period, from meaning "high notable" -- a sort-of title that could come and go in a person's life, and even more so in family history (it was more of an indication of a person's social and political standing than a real title) all the way to a title defined by law and bestowed by the tsar.
                    The (official) Alternate List of Titles is by no means satisfactory because too much time is covered. "Boyarin" would be perfectly adequate for an AoA recipient if the persona is early, but not at all for a late-period persona, so it's been dropped because it generated more arguments than it's worth.
                    Personally, I don't like (for my persona) pomestnitsa, so I don't use it. I might use "boiarynia" anyway -- it would be unofficial, and might bring up arguments with other Russian personae, so I just don't use anything, and let myself be called Lady in "foreign" courts. In a "Russian court" situation, I would just make sure I was called by my given name + patronymic (Predslava Vydrina), that's honorable enough... We (Russian personae) are rather like foreigners in the England/France-oriented SCA...

                    >
                    >I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
                    >
                    >Boyarina Aleksandra
                    >An Tir
                    >
                    >>I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                    >>accepted here in AnTir;
                    >>
                    >>stasi
                    >>
                    >>Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)

                    K vashim uslugam,

                    Sofya

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                    Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                    http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                    "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------




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