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Eastern B. Ct. "coronet" ideas?

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  • Tim Nalley
    Your Excellency, Soshka and Everyone, I ve been thinking and I have a couple twisted but creative potential remedies for this delimna (sp). Its a fact that
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 16, 2007
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      Your Excellency, Soshka and Everyone,
      I've been thinking and I have a couple twisted but
      creative potential remedies for this delimna (sp). Its
      a fact that silver hats abound and even though some
      like yourself and others busted ass to earn theirs,
      its always been a perk and the whim of the Crown
      ultimately. And almost impossible to differentiate
      your hard work from those whose main qualification was
      the pucker factor. Crude but true.
      So, how to break with the herd to show that you
      have talents while also maintaining your eastern
      persona? As the Most Esteemed Sofya pointed out, the
      Grand Prince was often pictured in a fur hat and if I
      remember Ospery #222 on the Golden Horde and Timiruds,
      (yea, I know) there were several hat styles pictured.
      Maybe that could be an avenue to meet your needs?
      What if you used a silver organza fabric or
      silver twisted wire couched down to a fur brimed hat?
      If you combined the twisted "silver" wire couched down
      to a loose weave silver metallic fabric from a craft
      store and a really nice fur edging then your could
      situate six of anything above the fur and have a
      really eyecatching coronet? Add some freshwater pearls
      from Firemountain.com and/or some drilled cabachons,
      all of which would be supported by the silver wire and
      you have a "coronet" that would make a Grand Prince
      drool.
      Or do a silver brim on a hat(s) with pearling or
      couchwork and have a variety of "coronets". Maybe you
      could promote an aspiring artisan of your acquantence
      or even challenge yourself to make the coronet? This
      could be a lot of pluses all around! Besides, who
      knows? You might inspire others to imitate and start a
      trend?????
      YIS,
      'dok

      --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

      > Your Excellency, poklon ot Sofya.
      >
      > I have to agree with Mordak here. If you're going
      > Russian, there's really no equivalent of a Baronial
      > Coronet. In period art, only the Grand Prince is
      > shown in a crown - often, in our period, he's just
      > in a fur hat.
      >
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/clothingart.html
      >
      > I can't think of any crown-like items for the
      > Mongols, not that I claim much expertise there. The
      > folks at the Red Kaganate probably know more:
      > http://www.redkaganate.org/
      >
      > You may just have to accept that the coronet is a
      > western gift from a western ruler, and use a western
      > design with a touch of Eastern flair.
      >
      > You might find some ideas here:
      > http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/novgorodpublic.html
      > (big pictures - load slowly)
      >
      > K tvoim uslugam,
      >
      > Sofya
      >
      >
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      >
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > >------- Original Message -------
      > >The problem will be that crowns for eastern
      > >personas didn't appear to exist,...
      >
      > >Its very frustrating and leads one to
      > >suspect that crowns are probably a western/SCA
      > >convention for ranks below rulers, for us!
      > >
      > >Mordak Timofei'vich Rostovskogo, OL
      >
      > --- Sasha <sashavilanov@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> I am
      > >> searching for some information on Russian
      > Baronial
      > >> Coronets.
      > >>
      > .> My persona incidently is Russian born Mongolian
      > >> soldier circa 1320 in
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >


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    • Marilee Humason
      You aren t going to be able to be completely period if you want to wear a coronet. I downloaded the crowns of the russian tsars into my file - anastasia- they
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 16, 2007
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        You aren't going to be able to be completely period if
        you want to wear a coronet. I downloaded the crowns of
        the russian tsars into my file - anastasia- they are
        the hats with crown type changes. Mongols don't seem
        to have any type of coronets that I have been able to
        research and I have looked for a couple of years now.
        my own coronet is a metal Kokoshnik in the Moscow
        style. I can't document that baronesses wore them, but
        there were often wedding crowns made of metal so I
        went by that. that doesn't help the guys. I would go
        with the hat and a small "sport" coronet of points and
        pearls that fits onto it.
        Baroness Anastasia
        --- Doug Petroshius <gintarasthetaura@...>
        wrote:

        > I too would be interested in infromation on this as
        > I recently became a
        > Baron of the Court.
        >
        > ~Gintaras~
        > [GIN -tah - rahs]
        >
        >
        >


        Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
      • Sfandra
        GAH! DOK! You just gave away my ideas! --Sfandra --also newly-minted CB (as of this past saturday) ... ****************** Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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          GAH! 'DOK! You just gave away my ideas!

          --Sfandra
          --also newly-minted CB (as of this past saturday)


          --- Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

          > Your Excellency, Soshka and Everyone,
          > I've been thinking and I have a couple twisted
          > but
          > creative potential remedies for this delimna (sp).
          > Its
          > a fact that silver hats abound and even though some
          > like yourself and others busted ass to earn theirs,
          > its always been a perk and the whim of the Crown
          > ultimately. And almost impossible to differentiate
          > your hard work from those whose main qualification
          > was
          > the pucker factor. Crude but true.
          > So, how to break with the herd to show that you
          > have talents while also maintaining your eastern
          > persona? As the Most Esteemed Sofya pointed out, the
          > Grand Prince was often pictured in a fur hat and if
          > I
          > remember Ospery #222 on the Golden Horde and
          > Timiruds,
          > (yea, I know) there were several hat styles
          > pictured.
          > Maybe that could be an avenue to meet your needs?
          > What if you used a silver organza fabric or
          > silver twisted wire couched down to a fur brimed
          > hat?
          > If you combined the twisted "silver" wire couched
          > down
          > to a loose weave silver metallic fabric from a craft
          > store and a really nice fur edging then your could
          > situate six of anything above the fur and have a
          > really eyecatching coronet? Add some freshwater
          > pearls
          > from Firemountain.com and/or some drilled cabachons,
          > all of which would be supported by the silver wire
          > and
          > you have a "coronet" that would make a Grand Prince
          > drool.
          > Or do a silver brim on a hat(s) with pearling or
          > couchwork and have a variety of "coronets". Maybe
          > you
          > could promote an aspiring artisan of your
          > acquantence
          > or even challenge yourself to make the coronet? This
          > could be a lot of pluses all around! Besides, who
          > knows? You might inspire others to imitate and start
          > a
          > trend?????
          > YIS,
          > 'dok
          >

          ******************
          Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
          Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
          Kingdom of the East
          ******************
          Never 'pearl' your butt.

          __________________________________________________
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        • Sfandra
          Boy, we all seem to be moving up in the world at once. :-D Must be a trend. At any rate, I have a question for those who were probably involved in the
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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            Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
            once. :-D Must be a trend.

            At any rate, I have a question for those who were
            probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
            why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess listed
            in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
            the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
            Is it a period distinction?

            Thanks,
            Sfandra

            ******************
            Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
            Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
            Kingdom of the East
            ******************
            Never 'pearl' your butt.

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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          • Paul W Goldschmidt
            Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a mayor while voevoda is more like a military governor . At the time of the debate, we felt that the understanding of the
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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              Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while voevoda is more like a
              "military governor".

              At the time of the debate, we felt that the understanding of the role
              of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so we argued that
              either was acceptable. A posadnik implies land-ownership, while
              voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.

              There is probably a period distinction as well, but I don't know it.

              YIS,
              Paul Wickenden

              At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:

              >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
              >once. :-D Must be a trend.
              >
              >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
              >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
              >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess listed
              >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
              >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
              >Is it a period distinction?
              >
              >Thanks,
              >Sfandra
              >
              >******************
              >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
              >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
              >Kingdom of the East
              >******************
              >Never 'pearl' your butt.
              >
              >__________________________________________________
              >Do You Yahoo!?
              >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • L.M. Kies
              Sfandra, poklon ot Sofya! Congratulations! ... It is a period distinction. I ve been reading all about Posadniks and Voevodas in the Novgorod Chronicle the
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                Sfandra, poklon ot Sofya!

                Congratulations!

                >What is the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                >Is it a period distinction?

                It is a period distinction. I've been reading all about Posadniks and Voevodas in the Novgorod Chronicle the last few days. And the committee that put together the list worked very hard to try to keep it period.

                Please see this version of the Alternate Title List for the relevant notes:
                http://knowledgepages.scadianrus.org/titles.html





                Baron
                Posadnik
                Посадник
                poh-sahd-neek
                "governor of a city-state"

                Voevoda
                Воевода
                voy-yeh-vohd-ah
                Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones

                Baroness
                Posadnitsa
                Посадница
                poh-sahd-nee-tsah
                "governor of a city-state"

                Voevoda
                Воевода
                voy-yeh-vohd-ah
                Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones
                I.e. the "mayor" of Novgorod was a Posadnik. The "general" of their army was a Voevoda.

                K tvoim uslugam,

                Sofya

                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                --------------------------------------------------------------------



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sfandra
                Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa. And yes, most of Dok s suggestions re: coronets had gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I was
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                  Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa.

                  And yes, most of 'Dok's suggestions re: coronets had
                  gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I
                  was gifted with quite possibly the Known World's Most
                  Obnoxious Coronet at my elevation. And I love it!
                  But it sure is, um, ostentatious. I'll stick a shot
                  of it in the Photos: Sfandra's Stuff.

                  Cheers,
                  Sfandra

                  __________________________________________________
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                • aldo
                  posadnik and posadnitsa was actually as Paul has said a term for mayor and was mainly used in the North of the Russian Land i.e.Novgorod the Great or Polotsk.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                    posadnik and posadnitsa was actually as Paul has said a term for mayor and was mainly used in the North of the Russian Land i.e.Novgorod the Great or Polotsk. Posadnik was a public charge that the Vetche acclaimed each time a new posadnik had to be elected. As far as Novgorod is concerned, it was recognized as a real public charge till 1478 but after that date it became void as John the III of Moscow was the only one entitled to grant it.

                    Ciao

                    Aldo
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sfandra
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:34 PM
                    Subject: RE: [sig] Baronial Title in Russian


                    Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa.

                    And yes, most of 'Dok's suggestions re: coronets had
                    gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I
                    was gifted with quite possibly the Known World's Most
                    Obnoxious Coronet at my elevation. And I love it!
                    But it sure is, um, ostentatious. I'll stick a shot
                    of it in the Photos: Sfandra's Stuff.

                    Cheers,
                    Sfandra

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Marilee Humason
                    I use Boyarina, which means petty noble . It is accepted here in AnTir; stasi ... Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                      I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                      accepted here in AnTir;
                      stasi
                      --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                      > Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while
                      > voevoda is more like a
                      > "military governor".
                      >
                      > At the time of the debate, we felt that the
                      > understanding of the role
                      > of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so
                      > we argued that
                      > either was acceptable. A posadnik implies
                      > land-ownership, while
                      > voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.
                      >
                      > There is probably a period distinction as well, but
                      > I don't know it.
                      >
                      > YIS,
                      > Paul Wickenden
                      >
                      > At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:
                      >
                      > >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
                      > >once. :-D Must be a trend.
                      > >
                      > >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
                      > >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
                      > >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess
                      > listed
                      > >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
                      > >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                      > >Is it a period distinction?
                      > >
                      > >Thanks,
                      > >Sfandra
                      > >
                      > >******************
                      > >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                      > >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
                      > Drachenklaue
                      > >Kingdom of the East
                      > >******************
                      > >Never 'pearl' your butt.
                      > >
                      > >__________________________________________________
                      > >Do You Yahoo!?
                      > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                      > protection around
                      > ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >


                      Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                    • JoAnna Buxton
                      I also use Boyarina. It s easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce. My CB coronet is a melding of period silver filigree work that
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                        I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
                        My CB coronet is a melding of period silver filigree work that curls to support large fresh water pearls & a bit of artistic license - it has copper 'firebird' feathers - a nod to my favorite folk tale. :)

                        Boyarina Aleksandra
                        An Tir

                        Marilee Humason <stasiwa@...> wrote:
                        I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                        accepted here in AnTir;
                        stasi
                        --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                        > Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while
                        > voevoda is more like a
                        > "military governor".
                        >
                        > At the time of the debate, we felt that the
                        > understanding of the role
                        > of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so
                        > we argued that
                        > either was acceptable. A posadnik implies
                        > land-ownership, while
                        > voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.
                        >
                        > There is probably a period distinction as well, but
                        > I don't know it.
                        >
                        > YIS,
                        > Paul Wickenden
                        >
                        > At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:
                        >
                        > >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
                        > >once. :-D Must be a trend.
                        > >
                        > >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
                        > >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
                        > >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess
                        > listed
                        > >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
                        > >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                        > >Is it a period distinction?
                        > >
                        > >Thanks,
                        > >Sfandra
                        > >
                        > >******************
                        > >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                        > >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
                        > Drachenklaue
                        > >Kingdom of the East
                        > >******************
                        > >Never 'pearl' your butt.
                        > >
                        > >__________________________________________________
                        > >Do You Yahoo!?
                        > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                        > protection around
                        > ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >

                        Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)





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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • L.M. Kies
                        Poklon ot Sofya! I ve copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 17, 2007
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                          Poklon ot Sofya!

                          I've copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the folks who put together the official alternate title list. Comment at will. :-)


                          Addressing nobility:
                          Predslava says " Gospodin is OK as a form of address, NOT as a *title*. You could actually try the vocative: gospodine [gohs-poh-DEE-neh], as in "hey, your lordship!" (well, OK, a little more polite than that!)
                          "Vy" as a respectful form of address is way OOP! Even in the 18th century, satyrists derided the need to "use the plural to address a single person". In period, it's "ty" for one person (see Spanish "tu", German "du" etc), and "vy" for a plural (Spanish "vosotros", German "ihr" etc).
                          Ksenia Alexandrova says: Dvoryanin (dvoryanka) would be a useful term for minor nobility, and as a general term of address for dukes and Counts, but usually refereed to lesser nobility. It may be translated as "courtsman." It was more normal for female family members of the courtiers to be identified as "daughter of dvoryanin ______________." This term of address referred to the courtiers of the Tsar originally, in perhaps the thirteenth century. Then, later, it became a general term for everyone noble other than the higher nobility.
                          There was another term that was used to identify lesser nobility during our period was "boyarin" and boyarinya" for females. It is an old word coming originally from the council of elders for the dukes/princes. It went out of use in the 1600s or so, because they exterminated all the Boyars. The lucky ones, apparently, became dvoryanin.
                          Predslava adds: "Dvorianin" is really more of a generic term than a title or a form of address. Or a descriptive term in late period.
                          "Boyarin" is a term whose meaning changed quite a bit during our period, from meaning "high notable" -- a sort-of title that could come and go in a person's life, and even more so in family history (it was more of an indication of a person's social and political standing than a real title) all the way to a title defined by law and bestowed by the tsar.
                          The (official) Alternate List of Titles is by no means satisfactory because too much time is covered. "Boyarin" would be perfectly adequate for an AoA recipient if the persona is early, but not at all for a late-period persona, so it's been dropped because it generated more arguments than it's worth.
                          Personally, I don't like (for my persona) pomestnitsa, so I don't use it. I might use "boiarynia" anyway -- it would be unofficial, and might bring up arguments with other Russian personae, so I just don't use anything, and let myself be called Lady in "foreign" courts. In a "Russian court" situation, I would just make sure I was called by my given name + patronymic (Predslava Vydrina), that's honorable enough... We (Russian personae) are rather like foreigners in the England/France-oriented SCA...

                          >
                          >I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
                          >
                          >Boyarina Aleksandra
                          >An Tir
                          >
                          >>I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                          >>accepted here in AnTir;
                          >>
                          >>stasi
                          >>
                          >>Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)

                          K vashim uslugam,

                          Sofya

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------




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