Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: Re: [sig] hello hello

Expand Messages
  • L.M. Kies
    Your Excellency, poklon ot Sofya. I have to agree with Mordak here. If you re going Russian, there s really no equivalent of a Baronial Coronet. In period
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 16 8:34 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Your Excellency, poklon ot Sofya.

      I have to agree with Mordak here. If you're going Russian, there's really no equivalent of a Baronial Coronet. In period art, only the Grand Prince is shown in a crown - often, in our period, he's just in a fur hat.
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/clothingart.html

      I can't think of any crown-like items for the Mongols, not that I claim much expertise there. The folks at the Red Kaganate probably know more:
      http://www.redkaganate.org/

      You may just have to accept that the coronet is a western gift from a western ruler, and use a western design with a touch of Eastern flair.

      You might find some ideas here:
      http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/novgorodpublic.html (big pictures - load slowly)

      K tvoim uslugam,

      Sofya

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      --------------------------------------------------------------------

      >------- Original Message -------
      >The problem will be that crowns for eastern
      >personas didn't appear to exist,...

      >Its very frustrating and leads one to
      >suspect that crowns are probably a western/SCA
      >convention for ranks below rulers, for us!
      >
      >Mordak Timofei'vich Rostovskogo, OL

      --- Sasha <sashavilanov@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> I am
      >> searching for some information on Russian Baronial
      >> Coronets.
      >>
      .> My persona incidently is Russian born Mongolian
      >> soldier circa 1320 in








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tim Nalley
      Your Excellency, Soshka and Everyone, I ve been thinking and I have a couple twisted but creative potential remedies for this delimna (sp). Its a fact that
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 16 10:31 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Your Excellency, Soshka and Everyone,
        I've been thinking and I have a couple twisted but
        creative potential remedies for this delimna (sp). Its
        a fact that silver hats abound and even though some
        like yourself and others busted ass to earn theirs,
        its always been a perk and the whim of the Crown
        ultimately. And almost impossible to differentiate
        your hard work from those whose main qualification was
        the pucker factor. Crude but true.
        So, how to break with the herd to show that you
        have talents while also maintaining your eastern
        persona? As the Most Esteemed Sofya pointed out, the
        Grand Prince was often pictured in a fur hat and if I
        remember Ospery #222 on the Golden Horde and Timiruds,
        (yea, I know) there were several hat styles pictured.
        Maybe that could be an avenue to meet your needs?
        What if you used a silver organza fabric or
        silver twisted wire couched down to a fur brimed hat?
        If you combined the twisted "silver" wire couched down
        to a loose weave silver metallic fabric from a craft
        store and a really nice fur edging then your could
        situate six of anything above the fur and have a
        really eyecatching coronet? Add some freshwater pearls
        from Firemountain.com and/or some drilled cabachons,
        all of which would be supported by the silver wire and
        you have a "coronet" that would make a Grand Prince
        drool.
        Or do a silver brim on a hat(s) with pearling or
        couchwork and have a variety of "coronets". Maybe you
        could promote an aspiring artisan of your acquantence
        or even challenge yourself to make the coronet? This
        could be a lot of pluses all around! Besides, who
        knows? You might inspire others to imitate and start a
        trend?????
        YIS,
        'dok

        --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

        > Your Excellency, poklon ot Sofya.
        >
        > I have to agree with Mordak here. If you're going
        > Russian, there's really no equivalent of a Baronial
        > Coronet. In period art, only the Grand Prince is
        > shown in a crown - often, in our period, he's just
        > in a fur hat.
        >
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/clothingart.html
        >
        > I can't think of any crown-like items for the
        > Mongols, not that I claim much expertise there. The
        > folks at the Red Kaganate probably know more:
        > http://www.redkaganate.org/
        >
        > You may just have to accept that the coronet is a
        > western gift from a western ruler, and use a western
        > design with a touch of Eastern flair.
        >
        > You might find some ideas here:
        > http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/novgorodpublic.html
        > (big pictures - load slowly)
        >
        > K tvoim uslugam,
        >
        > Sofya
        >
        >
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
        > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
        > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        >
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > >------- Original Message -------
        > >The problem will be that crowns for eastern
        > >personas didn't appear to exist,...
        >
        > >Its very frustrating and leads one to
        > >suspect that crowns are probably a western/SCA
        > >convention for ranks below rulers, for us!
        > >
        > >Mordak Timofei'vich Rostovskogo, OL
        >
        > --- Sasha <sashavilanov@...> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> I am
        > >> searching for some information on Russian
        > Baronial
        > >> Coronets.
        > >>
        > .> My persona incidently is Russian born Mongolian
        > >> soldier circa 1320 in
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Marilee Humason
        You aren t going to be able to be completely period if you want to wear a coronet. I downloaded the crowns of the russian tsars into my file - anastasia- they
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 16 10:56 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          You aren't going to be able to be completely period if
          you want to wear a coronet. I downloaded the crowns of
          the russian tsars into my file - anastasia- they are
          the hats with crown type changes. Mongols don't seem
          to have any type of coronets that I have been able to
          research and I have looked for a couple of years now.
          my own coronet is a metal Kokoshnik in the Moscow
          style. I can't document that baronesses wore them, but
          there were often wedding crowns made of metal so I
          went by that. that doesn't help the guys. I would go
          with the hat and a small "sport" coronet of points and
          pearls that fits onto it.
          Baroness Anastasia
          --- Doug Petroshius <gintarasthetaura@...>
          wrote:

          > I too would be interested in infromation on this as
          > I recently became a
          > Baron of the Court.
          >
          > ~Gintaras~
          > [GIN -tah - rahs]
          >
          >
          >


          Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
        • Sfandra
          GAH! DOK! You just gave away my ideas! --Sfandra --also newly-minted CB (as of this past saturday) ... ****************** Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 17 7:42 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            GAH! 'DOK! You just gave away my ideas!

            --Sfandra
            --also newly-minted CB (as of this past saturday)


            --- Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

            > Your Excellency, Soshka and Everyone,
            > I've been thinking and I have a couple twisted
            > but
            > creative potential remedies for this delimna (sp).
            > Its
            > a fact that silver hats abound and even though some
            > like yourself and others busted ass to earn theirs,
            > its always been a perk and the whim of the Crown
            > ultimately. And almost impossible to differentiate
            > your hard work from those whose main qualification
            > was
            > the pucker factor. Crude but true.
            > So, how to break with the herd to show that you
            > have talents while also maintaining your eastern
            > persona? As the Most Esteemed Sofya pointed out, the
            > Grand Prince was often pictured in a fur hat and if
            > I
            > remember Ospery #222 on the Golden Horde and
            > Timiruds,
            > (yea, I know) there were several hat styles
            > pictured.
            > Maybe that could be an avenue to meet your needs?
            > What if you used a silver organza fabric or
            > silver twisted wire couched down to a fur brimed
            > hat?
            > If you combined the twisted "silver" wire couched
            > down
            > to a loose weave silver metallic fabric from a craft
            > store and a really nice fur edging then your could
            > situate six of anything above the fur and have a
            > really eyecatching coronet? Add some freshwater
            > pearls
            > from Firemountain.com and/or some drilled cabachons,
            > all of which would be supported by the silver wire
            > and
            > you have a "coronet" that would make a Grand Prince
            > drool.
            > Or do a silver brim on a hat(s) with pearling or
            > couchwork and have a variety of "coronets". Maybe
            > you
            > could promote an aspiring artisan of your
            > acquantence
            > or even challenge yourself to make the coronet? This
            > could be a lot of pluses all around! Besides, who
            > knows? You might inspire others to imitate and start
            > a
            > trend?????
            > YIS,
            > 'dok
            >

            ******************
            Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
            Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
            Kingdom of the East
            ******************
            Never 'pearl' your butt.

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          • Sfandra
            Boy, we all seem to be moving up in the world at once. :-D Must be a trend. At any rate, I have a question for those who were probably involved in the
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 17 7:47 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
              once. :-D Must be a trend.

              At any rate, I have a question for those who were
              probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
              why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess listed
              in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
              the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
              Is it a period distinction?

              Thanks,
              Sfandra

              ******************
              Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
              Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
              Kingdom of the East
              ******************
              Never 'pearl' your butt.

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • Paul W Goldschmidt
              Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a mayor while voevoda is more like a military governor . At the time of the debate, we felt that the understanding of the
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 17 8:09 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while voevoda is more like a
                "military governor".

                At the time of the debate, we felt that the understanding of the role
                of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so we argued that
                either was acceptable. A posadnik implies land-ownership, while
                voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.

                There is probably a period distinction as well, but I don't know it.

                YIS,
                Paul Wickenden

                At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:

                >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
                >once. :-D Must be a trend.
                >
                >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
                >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
                >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess listed
                >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
                >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                >Is it a period distinction?
                >
                >Thanks,
                >Sfandra
                >
                >******************
                >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
                >Kingdom of the East
                >******************
                >Never 'pearl' your butt.
                >
                >__________________________________________________
                >Do You Yahoo!?
                >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • L.M. Kies
                Sfandra, poklon ot Sofya! Congratulations! ... It is a period distinction. I ve been reading all about Posadniks and Voevodas in the Novgorod Chronicle the
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 17 8:30 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sfandra, poklon ot Sofya!

                  Congratulations!

                  >What is the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                  >Is it a period distinction?

                  It is a period distinction. I've been reading all about Posadniks and Voevodas in the Novgorod Chronicle the last few days. And the committee that put together the list worked very hard to try to keep it period.

                  Please see this version of the Alternate Title List for the relevant notes:
                  http://knowledgepages.scadianrus.org/titles.html





                  Baron
                  Posadnik
                  Посадник
                  poh-sahd-neek
                  "governor of a city-state"

                  Voevoda
                  Воевода
                  voy-yeh-vohd-ah
                  Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones

                  Baroness
                  Posadnitsa
                  Посадница
                  poh-sahd-nee-tsah
                  "governor of a city-state"

                  Voevoda
                  Воевода
                  voy-yeh-vohd-ah
                  Means "commander" or "governor"; military overtones
                  I.e. the "mayor" of Novgorod was a Posadnik. The "general" of their army was a Voevoda.

                  K tvoim uslugam,

                  Sofya

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                  Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                  http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                  "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sfandra
                  Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa. And yes, most of Dok s suggestions re: coronets had gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I was
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 17 9:30 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa.

                    And yes, most of 'Dok's suggestions re: coronets had
                    gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I
                    was gifted with quite possibly the Known World's Most
                    Obnoxious Coronet at my elevation. And I love it!
                    But it sure is, um, ostentatious. I'll stick a shot
                    of it in the Photos: Sfandra's Stuff.

                    Cheers,
                    Sfandra

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                  • aldo
                    posadnik and posadnitsa was actually as Paul has said a term for mayor and was mainly used in the North of the Russian Land i.e.Novgorod the Great or Polotsk.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 17 9:41 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      posadnik and posadnitsa was actually as Paul has said a term for mayor and was mainly used in the North of the Russian Land i.e.Novgorod the Great or Polotsk. Posadnik was a public charge that the Vetche acclaimed each time a new posadnik had to be elected. As far as Novgorod is concerned, it was recognized as a real public charge till 1478 but after that date it became void as John the III of Moscow was the only one entitled to grant it.

                      Ciao

                      Aldo
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sfandra
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:34 PM
                      Subject: RE: [sig] Baronial Title in Russian


                      Thanks for the notes. Hm. I think Posadnitsa.

                      And yes, most of 'Dok's suggestions re: coronets had
                      gone through my mind in the last 3 days. Of course, I
                      was gifted with quite possibly the Known World's Most
                      Obnoxious Coronet at my elevation. And I love it!
                      But it sure is, um, ostentatious. I'll stick a shot
                      of it in the Photos: Sfandra's Stuff.

                      Cheers,
                      Sfandra

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      http://mail.yahoo.com




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Marilee Humason
                      I use Boyarina, which means petty noble . It is accepted here in AnTir; stasi ... Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 17 9:49 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                        accepted here in AnTir;
                        stasi
                        --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                        > Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while
                        > voevoda is more like a
                        > "military governor".
                        >
                        > At the time of the debate, we felt that the
                        > understanding of the role
                        > of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so
                        > we argued that
                        > either was acceptable. A posadnik implies
                        > land-ownership, while
                        > voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.
                        >
                        > There is probably a period distinction as well, but
                        > I don't know it.
                        >
                        > YIS,
                        > Paul Wickenden
                        >
                        > At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:
                        >
                        > >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
                        > >once. :-D Must be a trend.
                        > >
                        > >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
                        > >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
                        > >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess
                        > listed
                        > >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
                        > >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                        > >Is it a period distinction?
                        > >
                        > >Thanks,
                        > >Sfandra
                        > >
                        > >******************
                        > >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                        > >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
                        > Drachenklaue
                        > >Kingdom of the East
                        > >******************
                        > >Never 'pearl' your butt.
                        > >
                        > >__________________________________________________
                        > >Do You Yahoo!?
                        > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                        > protection around
                        > ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >


                        Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
                      • JoAnna Buxton
                        I also use Boyarina. It s easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce. My CB coronet is a melding of period silver filigree work that
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 17 2:41 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
                          My CB coronet is a melding of period silver filigree work that curls to support large fresh water pearls & a bit of artistic license - it has copper 'firebird' feathers - a nod to my favorite folk tale. :)

                          Boyarina Aleksandra
                          An Tir

                          Marilee Humason <stasiwa@...> wrote:
                          I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                          accepted here in AnTir;
                          stasi
                          --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                          > Posadnik/nitsa is more akin to a "mayor" while
                          > voevoda is more like a
                          > "military governor".
                          >
                          > At the time of the debate, we felt that the
                          > understanding of the role
                          > of a Baron/ess in the SCA straddled both concepts so
                          > we argued that
                          > either was acceptable. A posadnik implies
                          > land-ownership, while
                          > voevoda implies men-at-arms serve you.
                          >
                          > There is probably a period distinction as well, but
                          > I don't know it.
                          >
                          > YIS,
                          > Paul Wickenden
                          >
                          > At 09:48 AM 4/17/2007, you wrote:
                          >
                          > >Boy, we all seem to be "moving up in the world" at
                          > >once. :-D Must be a trend.
                          > >
                          > >At any rate, I have a question for those who were
                          > >probably involved in the heraldic decision process:
                          > >why are there 2 possible titles for Baron/ess
                          > listed
                          > >in the Alternate Title charts for Russian? What is
                          > >the distinction between Posadnik/nitsa and Voevoda?
                          > >Is it a period distinction?
                          > >
                          > >Thanks,
                          > >Sfandra
                          > >
                          > >******************
                          > >Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                          > >Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
                          > Drachenklaue
                          > >Kingdom of the East
                          > >******************
                          > >Never 'pearl' your butt.
                          > >
                          > >__________________________________________________
                          > >Do You Yahoo!?
                          > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                          > protection around
                          > ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >

                          Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)





                          ---------------------------------
                          Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
                          Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • L.M. Kies
                          Poklon ot Sofya! I ve copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 17 3:57 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Poklon ot Sofya!

                            I've copied below the chief points of an exchange that took place on the SIG list awhile back on a this subject. Predslava was one of the folks who put together the official alternate title list. Comment at will. :-)


                            Addressing nobility:
                            Predslava says " Gospodin is OK as a form of address, NOT as a *title*. You could actually try the vocative: gospodine [gohs-poh-DEE-neh], as in "hey, your lordship!" (well, OK, a little more polite than that!)
                            "Vy" as a respectful form of address is way OOP! Even in the 18th century, satyrists derided the need to "use the plural to address a single person". In period, it's "ty" for one person (see Spanish "tu", German "du" etc), and "vy" for a plural (Spanish "vosotros", German "ihr" etc).
                            Ksenia Alexandrova says: Dvoryanin (dvoryanka) would be a useful term for minor nobility, and as a general term of address for dukes and Counts, but usually refereed to lesser nobility. It may be translated as "courtsman." It was more normal for female family members of the courtiers to be identified as "daughter of dvoryanin ______________." This term of address referred to the courtiers of the Tsar originally, in perhaps the thirteenth century. Then, later, it became a general term for everyone noble other than the higher nobility.
                            There was another term that was used to identify lesser nobility during our period was "boyarin" and boyarinya" for females. It is an old word coming originally from the council of elders for the dukes/princes. It went out of use in the 1600s or so, because they exterminated all the Boyars. The lucky ones, apparently, became dvoryanin.
                            Predslava adds: "Dvorianin" is really more of a generic term than a title or a form of address. Or a descriptive term in late period.
                            "Boyarin" is a term whose meaning changed quite a bit during our period, from meaning "high notable" -- a sort-of title that could come and go in a person's life, and even more so in family history (it was more of an indication of a person's social and political standing than a real title) all the way to a title defined by law and bestowed by the tsar.
                            The (official) Alternate List of Titles is by no means satisfactory because too much time is covered. "Boyarin" would be perfectly adequate for an AoA recipient if the persona is early, but not at all for a late-period persona, so it's been dropped because it generated more arguments than it's worth.
                            Personally, I don't like (for my persona) pomestnitsa, so I don't use it. I might use "boiarynia" anyway -- it would be unofficial, and might bring up arguments with other Russian personae, so I just don't use anything, and let myself be called Lady in "foreign" courts. In a "Russian court" situation, I would just make sure I was called by my given name + patronymic (Predslava Vydrina), that's honorable enough... We (Russian personae) are rather like foreigners in the England/France-oriented SCA...

                            >
                            >I also use Boyarina. It's easier for others to understand and for the heralds to pronounce.
                            >
                            >Boyarina Aleksandra
                            >An Tir
                            >
                            >>I use Boyarina, which means "petty noble". It is
                            >>accepted here in AnTir;
                            >>
                            >>stasi
                            >>
                            >>Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)

                            K vashim uslugam,

                            Sofya

                            --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.