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Re: [sig] My Thoughts on Period Ukrainian Costumes/Embroidery Thread excuse the pun

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  • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
    ... Great stuff, Magdalena! -- Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski Middle Kingdom, Pentamere, Shire of Talonval Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 19, 2007
      On 2/17/07, magdalenag56 <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
      >
      > As part of my Polish persona I have tried to research "Polish"
      > embroidery and with much of Polish women's clothing pre 17th C there
      > isn't alot of documentable information.
      >
      > Here are my thoughts: I don't know enough about Russian embroidery to
      > make a statement about whether there was or wasn't cross stitch
      > embroidery. But in talking about the area now known as the Ukraine
      > (is the Ukraine part of Poland or Russia? Depends on the year) There
      > definitely has been used of a long armed "cross stitch" usually done
      > with a red fiber. I also came across a blip when researching Polish
      > embroidery that there was a style of embroidery in Poland that used
      > no diagonal stitches. This would lend itself very well to a double
      > running stitch, the technique used in traditional Western European
      > Blackwork. Also, sometimes called the Holbein stitch.
      >
      > There is a similarity between this technique and some Islamic
      > embroidery. More information can be found on my web page
      > www.magdalenag.com as well as in an article I've been working on for
      > an A&S publication.
      >
      > Magdalena Gdanska
      >
      > Magdalena Gdanska
      >
      >
      >


      Great stuff, Magdalena!
      --
      Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
      Middle Kingdom, Pentamere, Shire of Talonval
      Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
      SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org
      ""Are you too old to start fighting? No, you're not too old to start. Dead
      is too old."
      Baccus Kaloethes, age 53
      Squire to Sir Geoffrey Scott , CAID


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kataryna Dragonweaver
      From the books I ve dug up it seems that some of the traditional dress elements could be used as very late period pesant dress. ... This is from the Ukrainian
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 19, 2007
        From the books I've dug up it seems that some of the traditional dress
        elements could be used as very late period pesant dress.

        >
        > IE: POLTAVA: Head dress - use temple beads instead of ribbons.
        > Flowers could work on the head dress as they are now, but beaded head
        > dress may be of a richer person. Plahkta (3 panel skirt) seems to have
        > been checkered as it is today, just a little longer. Shirt: one piece
        > going to at least below knees. Embroidery, but with thicker thread or
        > yarn. Woven sash. Colored boots with the sharp cut in front (like they
        > are now), but no heels. Puffy sleeves, possibly evolving from the big
        > sleeves that were "let down" to dance.

        This is from the Ukrainian costuming books the drawings are listed as
        peasent dress XI to XV centuries:
        The head dress with beads or metal ornaments can be used, tho all the
        hanging bits (ribbons) seem to be at the temples (ie: temple rings)
        rather then down the back.
        The three paneled skirt (open in the front) goes all the way to about
        two inches above the lenght of the underskirt... and yes checked.
        Woven sash - yes.
        I can't see what the boots look like... but there is a line drawing of
        a bunch of different shoes and boots on a different plate that says XI
        to XV CT. of which a couple look as you describe above, two have small
        heels (like the guys dance boots) one has high curved heels... and
        doesn't look like you could walk in them - maybe for riding.
        The one peice shirt (underdress of some sort) goes all the way to the
        ground.

        The puffy sleeves don't seem to be there, but extra long sleeves
        bunched up on the arms held up by cuffs at the wrist are shown.

        > QUESTION: Any guesses on whether the velvet, sleeveless coat (or
        > vest) of the POLTAVA REGION (central Ukraine, including Kiev) could have
        > been worn?


        The first picture of this I see is XVII to XVIII century... maybe
        really really late period (if you count 1650 as the SCA end point and
        not 1600... I think 1600 is what it is offically)

        >
        > QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
        > (panova)? The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
        > Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!
        >

        Hi - it's going to be pricey no matter what. Keep an eye out for sales
        at Fabric land/Fannys fabric. You can find light weight cheap tartan
        patterned wools or wool blends on Sale sometimes. If you are in
        Edmonton then you can check out the fabric store in Vegreville which
        also caters to the dance community - but it's expensive too. I got
        mine on sale at Fabric land.

        I don't worry to much at the pattern/colours since I haven't found
        anything that seems to indicate that the pattern was specific to a place.

        > HUTZEL: Shoes: pointed leather shoes, possibly tied around leg,
        > striped two panel skirt (or apron as it may appear to actually be),
        > elaborate head dress with beading instead of ribbons, sheepskin vest or
        > coat.

        Late period. Again the vest is probably after the SCA time frame.

        >
        > BUKOVINIAN: wrap skirt with corner turned up seems to be worn as
        > far back as bronze age (according to Romanian web page). (The
        > Bukovinina region crosses the border).

        Yes.

        > EMBROIDERY: red around wrists and neck to ward of evil.
        >

        Yes.


        > LARRY: Re: Use of term "Ukraine". Some of the reading I have done
        > seems to state that it's a fairly modern term as the Ukrainian peasants
        > had no real identity as a nation as borders and overlords changed so
        > much that they did not really see themselves as a nation. In fact Uke
        > immigrants to Canada in late 1800's often called themselves
        > "Ruthenians". RE: "Ruthenians" I once read that Ukrainians were the
        > original slavic people of RUS and called themselves such.

        My grand parents (emigrated 1890's) used the term Ukrainian.
        The cossacks were a seperate force from the Muscovy army in the late
        1500's.

        Some histories from the Ukrainian perspective vs. the Russian ones are
        here:
        http://www.ualberta.ca/CIUS/jacykcentre/HTP-main.htm
        or
        http://www.utoronto.ca/cius/bios/hrushevskybio.htm

        The U of A library has copies. I have the first three volumes.
        I suspect in regards to the language there are a number of
        ethnocentrisms on both sides. I have read that Ukrainian is the older
        language I have also read that they spawned from a root language.
        The Rus information I've looked up seems to base alot of it's style
        and pictures on the Novgorod site and not so much on the objects and
        style in and around Kyiv. Looking at objects from the Ukrainian museum
        sites and those found in/around Kyiv seems to indicate more influence
        from Byzantium... so I think there were differences in both the
        society and the clothing - tho it may be more subtle and more in terms
        of different decorations. While the area of the Ukraine may not have
        been a different state then Rus it went though a number of changes;
        and depending on where and when you place yourself you might be ruled
        by Polish, Lithuanian, German or Rus. However, the people from the
        Ukrainian area seemed to have their own distinct culture and styles
        through all of it.

        -Kataryna
      • Susan Koziel
        I think this (see below) was supposed to go to the list and not to me personally; since I wasn t the one looking for the fabric. As an aside, I do know someone
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 28, 2007
          I think this (see below) was supposed to go to the list and not to me personally; since I wasn't the one looking for the fabric.

          As an aside, I do know someone who will do replica commision work for Ukrainian weaving; but it doesn't come quickly or cheaply as her contracts with museums take precedence. It's significantly more the 95$ a meter - but it will be from wool. If anyone is interested, I can put you in touch with her.

          -Kataryna

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: billjula2004 <vasyl@...>
          To: Kataryna Dragonweaver <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
          Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:33:25 PM
          Subject: Re: Period Ukrainian Costumes


          To whome it may concern

          > QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
          The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
          > > Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!

          I know the material & in my oppinion it is junk but it is the only
          matreial to be had here in north America. I have had 2 Plakhta's woven
          in Ukraine ( oh by the way please use "Ukraine" & not "the Ukraine" the
          artical THE is not needed, you wouldn't say the France.) it cost more
          the $95 but it is of wool like the real ones & more colorful.


          Vasyl Jula
        • bettybetravellin
          Thanks for the info. As well as looking to see if I can do period-style Ukie garb for myself that will double duty for the SCA and when I am in front of an
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 28, 2007
            Thanks for the info. As well as looking to see if I can do period-style Ukie garb for myself that will double duty for the SCA and when I am in front of an audience speaking, I also teach Ukie dance.
            So, I am also looking to find some plakhta material for the adult group I've just started. Unfortunately, the budget is tight, so alas, having it woven here or purchasing it from Ukraine, is not an option.

            If anyone else has any ideas for inexpensive look-a-likes for the plakhta material (Poltava), I'm all ears! (I've thought about using plaid, but it looks, well, plaid, and doesn't work, in my opinion).

            Thanks!
            Jeanne

            Susan Koziel <kataryna_dragonweaver@...> wrote:
            I think this (see below) was supposed to go to the list and not to me personally; since I wasn't the one looking for the fabric.

            As an aside, I do know someone who will do replica commision work for Ukrainian weaving; but it doesn't come quickly or cheaply as her contracts with museums take precedence. It's significantly more the 95$ a meter - but it will be from wool. If anyone is interested, I can put you in touch with her.

            -Kataryna

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: billjula2004 <vasyl@...>
            To: Kataryna Dragonweaver <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
            Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:33:25 PM
            Subject: Re: Period Ukrainian Costumes

            To whome it may concern

            > QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
            The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
            > > Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!

            I know the material & in my oppinion it is junk but it is the only
            matreial to be had here in north America. I have had 2 Plakhta's woven
            in Ukraine ( oh by the way please use "Ukraine" & not "the Ukraine" the
            artical THE is not needed, you wouldn't say the France.) it cost more
            the $95 but it is of wool like the real ones & more colorful.

            Vasyl Jula





            ---------------------------------
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kataryna Dragonweaver
            I ll poke around Vegreville and see what I can find. The dance groups here are also on pretty tight budgets - so they must have something. -Kataryna ...
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 1, 2007
              I'll poke around Vegreville and see what I can find. The dance groups
              here are also on pretty tight budgets - so they must have something.
              -Kataryna

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, bettybetravellin <bettybetravellin@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the info. As well as looking to see if I can do
              period-style Ukie garb for myself that will double duty for the SCA
              and when I am in front of an audience speaking, I also teach Ukie dance.
              > So, I am also looking to find some plakhta material for the adult
              group I've just started. Unfortunately, the budget is tight, so alas,
              having it woven here or purchasing it from Ukraine, is not an option.
              >
              > If anyone else has any ideas for inexpensive look-a-likes for the
              plakhta material (Poltava), I'm all ears! (I've thought about using
              plaid, but it looks, well, plaid, and doesn't work, in my opinion).
              >
              > Thanks!
              > Jeanne
              >
              > Susan Koziel <kataryna_dragonweaver@...> wrote:
              > I think this (see below) was supposed to go to the list
              and not to me personally; since I wasn't the one looking for the fabric.
              >
              > As an aside, I do know someone who will do replica commision work
              for Ukrainian weaving; but it doesn't come quickly or cheaply as her
              contracts with museums take precedence. It's significantly more the
              95$ a meter - but it will be from wool. If anyone is interested, I can
              put you in touch with her.
              >
              > -Kataryna
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: billjula2004 <vasyl@...>
              > To: Kataryna Dragonweaver <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:33:25 PM
              > Subject: Re: Period Ukrainian Costumes
              >
              > To whome it may concern
              >
              > > QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
              > The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
              > > > Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!
              >
              > I know the material & in my oppinion it is junk but it is the only
              > matreial to be had here in north America. I have had 2 Plakhta's woven
              > in Ukraine ( oh by the way please use "Ukraine" & not "the Ukraine" the
              > artical THE is not needed, you wouldn't say the France.) it cost more
              > the $95 but it is of wool like the real ones & more colorful.
              >
              > Vasyl Jula
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada
              Messenger with Voice
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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