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Period Ukrainian Costumes

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  • bettybetravellin
    Hi, Does anyone have any information on how period some of the regional women s Ukrainian dance costumes are? In some of the pictures of Rus costumes, it looks
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 14, 2007
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      Hi,
      Does anyone have any information on how period some of the regional women's Ukrainian dance costumes are?

      In some of the pictures of Rus costumes, it looks like there is a 3 panel woven plahtka, but I'm wondering about the whole costumes.

      -POLTAVA- central Ukraine (3 panel plahtka, shirt/slip, apron, velvet vest)
      -HUTZEL- (western mountains): 2 panel striped skirt, shirt/slip, woven belt, sheepskin vest.
      -BUKOVINIAN - (Western mountains): striped wrap-round skirt (one corner tucked up into belt), woven belt, shirt/slip.


      Thanks,
      Jeanne


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    • Rosie
      ... women s Ukrainian dance costumes are? I ve only done a bit of research about Polish costumes, but the general idea seems to be that these folk costumes are
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 15, 2007
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        > Hi,
        > Does anyone have any information on how period some of the regional
        women's Ukrainian dance costumes are?

        I've only done a bit of research about Polish costumes, but the general
        idea seems to be that these folk costumes are basically a 19th century
        invention. Some parts of them have morphed from earlier times, perhaps
        preferred colours, or favoured motifs for example. For the most part
        though, it was industralisation that allowed the fabrics to be made
        cheaply enough that people could afford to buy them and make up fancy
        costumes out of them.
        Like I said, I'm no expert, but this is the idea I've been given by my
        Polish aunt. Don't let that disuade you though. Period or not, lots of
        those costumes are so cool they deserve to be worn by someone!
        Rosie
      • L.M. Kies
        ... Actually, the situation for peasant/folk costumes in the former Rus lands is a _little_ more optimistic. My new webpage with notes about regional medieval
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 15, 2007
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          >------- Original Message -------
          >> Hi,
          >> Does anyone have any information on how period some of the regional
          >>women's Ukrainian dance costumes are?
          >
          >I've only done a bit of research about Polish costumes, but the general
          >idea seems to be that these folk costumes are basically a 19th century
          >invention.

          Actually, the situation for peasant/folk costumes in the former Rus lands is a _little_ more optimistic.

          My new webpage with notes about regional medieval Russian costume may be helpful for you.
          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KRCregions.html

          My philosophy - study up on the period Russian garments as much as possible, then cautionsly use the traditional folk garments to fill in the details -fabric patterns, color schemes, that sort of thing - after weeding out the blatantly OOP features (which is why you start by studying the period stuff first). Careful with the embroidery, though. I haven't documented the ever-popular x-stitch style of embroidery back to my period of Rus - yet. :)

          Sofya

          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
          "Si no necare, sana."
          --------------------------------------------------------------------







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Budandcynth@wmconnect.com
          Is the Sarafan an historic costume? Cynthia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 15, 2007
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            Is the Sarafan an historic costume?

            Cynthia


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Helena Frei
            From tangential research on early textiles: one tradition that seems to have carried through from very old times indeed is the white linen next to the body
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 15, 2007
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              From tangential research on early textiles: one tradition that seems
              to have carried through from very old times indeed is the white linen
              next to the body with "protective" red embroidery around the neck,
              wrists etc. - which is a pretty good description of the shirts/blouses
              in many Slavic national costumes.

              Another is the apron, which can be interpreted as a mutant descendant
              of the prehistoric string skirt. I find it interesting that many of
              the national costume aprons are vertically striped and that the Czech
              and Slovak word for apron - "zastera" (with some diacritical marks
              that I can't reproduce here) is virutally identical to the Greek word
              "zostra" that has been interpreted as a form of string skirt.
              (Elizabeth Wayland Barber, "Prehistoric Textiles", don't remember what
              page).

              And yet another is the use of the colour red, which Slavs (among
              others) considered auspicious and powerfullly protective, even where
              the words "red" and "beautiful" haven't run into each other like they
              have in Russian.

              A total off-the-top-of-my-head guess is that these elements and others
              (I have some suspicions about those really big sleeves) would have
              wound their way through Slavic dress in various interpretations, and
              probably more persistently in the dress of peasant populations because
              they had less opportunity to follow fashion than the nobility or
              emerging middle classes.

              It wouldn't surprise me if much of the detail of contemporary Slavic
              national costume were based on traces of ancient custom, though its
              present form seems to be largely influenced by 18th- and 19th-century
              fashion and, as you said, the availability of industrially-produced
              fabrics.

              Helena
            • Janin Wise
              This is a site I found helpful (: http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaPortul/history_costume.htm ... From: L.M. Kies To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 15, 2007
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                This is a site I found helpful (:

                http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaPortul/history_costume.htm

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: L.M. Kies <lkies@...>
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:44:25 AM
                Subject: RE: [sig] Re: Period Ukrainian Costumes















                >------- Original Message -------

                >> Hi,

                >> Does anyone have any information on how period some of the regional

                >>women's Ukrainian dance costumes are?

                >

                >I've only done a bit of research about Polish costumes, but the general

                >idea seems to be that these folk costumes are basically a 19th century

                >invention.



                Actually, the situation for peasant/folk costumes in the former Rus lands is a _little_ more optimistic.



                My new webpage with notes about regional medieval Russian costume may be helpful for you.

                http://www.strangel ove.net/~ kieser/Russia/ KRCregions. html



                My philosophy - study up on the period Russian garments as much as possible, then cautionsly use the traditional folk garments to fill in the details -fabric patterns, color schemes, that sort of thing - after weeding out the blatantly OOP features (which is why you start by studying the period stuff first). Careful with the embroidery, though. I haven't documented the ever-popular x-stitch style of embroidery back to my period of Rus - yet. :)



                Sofya



                ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus

                Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir

                http://www.strangel ove.net/~ kieser

                "Si no necare, sana."

                ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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              • Liudmila V
                In a message dated 02/15/07 08:19:35 Pacific Standard Time, Budandcynth@wmconnect.com writes: Is the Sarafan an historic costume? Not in Ukraine, and not in
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 15, 2007
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                  In a message dated 02/15/07 08:19:35 Pacific Standard Time, Budandcynth@... writes:
                  Is the Sarafan an historic costume?

                  Not in Ukraine, and not in Russia before late 16th, most likely 17th century, based on currently available evidence. Also, most likely not the version with thin straps, though I have an article that argues that a find of formerly pleated fabric is evidence of such sarafans in period. The article is in Russian, I will send a reference from home. Mostly sarafans are belived to be shubky that lost their sleeves, which would make them to be trapeze-shaped dresses with wide armholes.

                  Liudmila


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Susan Koziel
                  There are a couple books out on historical Ukrainian costume - one is in English History of Ukrainian costume : from the Scythian period to the late 17th
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 16, 2007
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                    There are a couple books out on historical Ukrainian costume - one is in English

                    History of Ukrainian costume : from the Scythian period to the late 17th century
                    Title: History of Ukrainian costume : from the Scythian period to the late 17th century / [art by Christina Senkiw ; line drawings by M. Hrokh and B. Tulin].
                    Publication info: Melbourne : Bayda Books, 1986.
                    Physical descrip: 62 p., [16] p. of plates : ill. (some col.) ; 29 cm.
                    Subject term: Costume--Ukraine
                    Bibliography note: Bibliography : p. 61-62.
                    Series: (Ukrainian Heritage Library.)
                    Added author: Senkiw, Christina.
                    Added author: Hrokh, M.
                    Added author: Tulin, B.
                    ISBN: 0908480164


                    The problem with this is that they don't explain where their sources are very well - it's good enough if you just want the costume info - but if you ever wanted to enter and A&S competition it would make poor documentation. Also the SCA period it covers is rather broad and only one chapter... called 13th to 17th century or something like that.

                    This has a bit better information - but limited to a few paragraphs in English
                    Ukraïns’kyi narodnyi od´i`ah = Ukrainian folk costume
                    Title: Ukraïns’kyi narodnyi od´i`ah = Ukrainian folk costume / [redaktory ukr. movy: Petro Odarchenko, Halyna ´T`Sarynnyk ; pereklad anhliis’ko´i`u movo´i`u Orys´i`a Pashchak-Trach].
                    Publication info: Toronto : Svitova federatsi´i`a ukraïns’kykh ´z`hinochykh orhanizatsii, Komisi´i`a narodnoho mystetstva : World Federation of Ukrainian Women's Organizations, Folk Art Committee, 1992.
                    Physical descrip: 311 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 29 cm.
                    Subject term: Costume--Ukraine
                    Bibliography note: Includes bibliographical references.
                    Language: Ukrainian and English.
                    Added author: Odarchenko, Petro, 1903-
                    Added author: ´T`Sarynnyk, Halyna.
                    Added author: World Federation of Ukrainian Women's Organizations. Folk Art Committee.
                    Added author: Svitova federatsi´i`a ukraïns’kykh ´z`hinochykh orhanizatsii Komisi´i`a narodnoho myste´t`stva.
                    Added title: Ukrainian folk costume.


                    Also
                    Istori´i`a ukraïns’koho kost´i`uma
                    Personal Author: Nikola´i`eva, T. O. (Tamara Oleksandrivna)
                    Title: Istori´i`a ukraïns’koho kost´i`uma / Tamara Nikola´i`eva.
                    Publication info: Kyïv : "Lybid’", 1996.
                    Physical descrip: 171 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 21 cm.
                    Subject term: Costume--Ukraine--History.
                    Bibliography note: Includes bibliographical references (p. [167]-171).
                    ISBN: 5325004743

                    This has been a troublesome book for me because it might have some good information in it, but I haven't had much luck getting it translated. I suspect that it has the same problem as the English book - in that it's vague on sources.

                    The most informative information I found was looking at some of the religious paintings/statues/jewelry that are from Keiv from that time... there are occasionally pictures of non-religious people in them - one of the cathedrals has pictures of a Tzarina and her attendents.

                    Good luck.
                    -Kataryna

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sfandra
                    Does anyone here have this one:
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 16, 2007
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                      Does anyone here have this one:

                      http://www.amazon.com/History-Russian-Costume-Eleventh-Twentieth/dp/0870991604/sr=1-1/qid=1171656960/ref=sr_1_1/105-7147985-1247614?ie=UTF8&s=books

                      History of Russian Costume from the Eleventh to the
                      Twentieth Century
                      Publisher: Metropolitan Museum of Art (June 1982)

                      ???

                      Thanks,
                      Sfandra Dmitrieva

                      ******************
                      Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                      Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
                      Kingdom of the East
                      ******************
                      Never 'pearl' your butt.



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                    • Tim Nalley
                      I have it in my collection. Becareful with the 17th C stuff that Peter the great wore. A lot of it is heavily Polish inspired, which was extremely stylish
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 16, 2007
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                        I have it in my collection. Becareful with the 17th C
                        stuff that Peter the great wore. A lot of it is
                        heavily Polish inspired, which was extremely stylish
                        then!!!
                        'dok
                        --- Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

                        > Does anyone here have this one:
                        >
                        >
                        http://www.amazon.com/History-Russian-Costume-Eleventh-Twentieth/dp/0870991604/sr=1-1/qid=1171656960/ref=sr_1_1/105-7147985-1247614?ie=UTF8&s=books
                        >
                        > History of Russian Costume from the Eleventh to the
                        > Twentieth Century
                        > Publisher: Metropolitan Museum of Art (June 1982)
                        >
                        > ???
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Sfandra Dmitrieva
                        >
                        > ******************
                        > Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                        > Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von
                        > Drachenklaue
                        > Kingdom of the East
                        > ******************
                        > Never 'pearl' your butt.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                        > Access over 1 million songs.
                        > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
                        >




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                      • L.M. Kies
                        ... This brings up the perpetually irritating question of how to match up garments and their names. For example, if the panova/plakhta/wrap skirt existed in
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 16, 2007
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                          >>------- Original Message -------
                          >>
                          >>Is the Sarafan an historic costume?
                          >
                          >Not in Ukraine, and not in Russia before late 16th, most likely 17th century, based on currently available evidence.
                          >Also, most likely not the version with thin straps, though I have an article that argues that a find of formerly pleated
                          >fabric is evidence of such sarafans in period. The article is in Russian, I will send a reference from home. Mostly
                          >sarafans are belived to be shubky that lost their sleeves, which would make them to be trapeze-shaped dresses with
                          >wide armholes.

                          This brings up the perpetually irritating question of how to match up garments and their names. For example, if the panova/plakhta/wrap skirt existed in period (and most of my sources say it did), we do not find it called such in the few early written sources we have. It's a similar story for the letnik, kokoshnik, etc.

                          My recent translation of Rabinovich revealed his argument that the sarafan originated in the 14th century, more or less replacing the panova. But he admits it wasn't called a sarafan then. Nor is he very specific about the exact form that it took.

                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/rabinovich86.html

                          Sofya

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                          "Si no necare, sana."
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • quokkaqueen
                          If it helps with your white linen and red threads evidence, the Finns and Estonians, at least before the 12th century are believed to have done this too. The
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 16, 2007
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                            If it helps with your 'white linen and red threads' evidence, the
                            Finns and Estonians, at least before the 12th century are believed to
                            have done this too.

                            The Finns were big on aprons, and there seems to be a lot of academic
                            debate at the moment about if there is any evidence for loin-cloth
                            like mini-aprons worn on the back (called in Finnish kaatterit). I
                            have a sneaking suspicion that there are some from Estonia, but I'll
                            have to check.

                            Where the red threads come in, is that the bronze spiral ornaments on
                            the aprons were threaded on red threads, which has been interpreted as
                            protecting the genitals.

                            A summary of an article I've been paraphrasing is here:
                            http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16993729

                            I'm happy to give more detailed references if anyone is interested. :)
                            ~Asfridhr

                            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Helena Frei" <helena.frei@...> wrote:
                            >
                            <<snip>>"protective" red embroidery around the neck,
                            > wrists etc.
                            <<snip>>
                            > Another is the apron,
                            <<snip>>
                            > Helena
                            >
                          • bettybetravellin
                            Hey, thanks to everyone for all their help! Any further info is greatly appreciated! So based on the info everyone has sent, basically if I took one of the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 16, 2007
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                              Hey, thanks to everyone for all their help! Any further info is
                              greatly appreciated! So based on the info everyone has sent, basically
                              if I took one of the dance costumes: Hutzel, Bukovinian, or Poltava and
                              altered them somewhat, they could conceivably be peasant and in period?

                              IE: POLTAVA: Head dress - use temple beads instead of ribbons.
                              Flowers could work on the head dress as they are now, but beaded head
                              dress may be of a richer person. Plahkta (3 panel skirt) seems to have
                              been checkered as it is today, just a little longer. Shirt: one piece
                              going to at least below knees. Embroidery, but with thicker thread or
                              yarn. Woven sash. Colored boots with the sharp cut in front (like they
                              are now), but no heels. Puffy sleeves, possibly evolving from the big
                              sleeves that were "let down" to dance.

                              QUESTION: Any guesses on whether the velvet, sleeveless coat (or
                              vest) of the POLTAVA REGION (central Ukraine, including Kiev) could have
                              been worn?

                              QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
                              (panova)? The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
                              Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!

                              HUTZEL: Shoes: pointed leather shoes, possibly tied around leg,
                              striped two panel skirt (or apron as it may appear to actually be),
                              elaborate head dress with beading instead of ribbons, sheepskin vest or
                              coat.

                              BUKOVINIAN: wrap skirt with corner turned up seems to be worn as
                              far back as bronze age (according to Romanian web page). (The
                              Bukovinina region crosses the border).

                              EMBROIDERY: red around wrists and neck to ward of evil.

                              COMMENTS:

                              SOFYA: Wonderful website! You mentioned that you were unsure of the
                              "cross stitch". A book I borrowed on embroidery says that it's from the
                              19th and 20th c and came from the west. A more period stitch is a long
                              type of stitch. If you are interested, I can get you the name of that
                              book.

                              RE: EMBROIDERY: Some reading I did on "rushnyks" - embroidered ritual
                              towels used to cover icons, in wedding cermonies, etc -- stated that in
                              pagan times, blessings, prayers and requests from the pagan spirits
                              would be embroidered into the rushnyks and tied to the tree branches
                              (falls in line with the info about warding off spirits when around neck
                              and wrists). Different colors and different types of motifs would
                              represent different things to be embroidered into the towel. In fact,
                              mistakes embroidered into the towel would be left in, for to undo the
                              embroidery and correct it would be to undo all the blessings, prayers,
                              and mystism embued in the rushnyk.

                              LARRY: Re: Use of term "Ukraine". Some of the reading I have done
                              seems to state that it's a fairly modern term as the Ukrainian peasants
                              had no real identity as a nation as borders and overlords changed so
                              much that they did not really see themselves as a nation. In fact Uke
                              immigrants to Canada in late 1800's often called themselves
                              "Ruthenians". RE: "Ruthenians" I once read that Ukrainians were the
                              original slavic people of RUS and called themselves such. The book
                              also stated that the Russian language evolved from Ukrainian. Not
                              being a linguist or speaking either language, I don't know if that is
                              true. The author further went on to state that in order to stop the
                              confusian and differ the RUS people from RUSSIANS, that once the Russian
                              language came to be and the speakers of that language were called
                              Russian, that the Rus began to call themselves Ruthenians and
                              Ukrainiains to differentiate themselves. I've not read this anywhere
                              else, so I suspect it may be ethnocentrism on the part of the author
                              (sorry, I've forgotten the name). ANYONE HAVE ANY FURTHER KNOWLEDGE
                              ON THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT?

                              Thanks!

                              Jeanne










                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • L.M. Kies
                              Poklon ot Sofya! ... I just spent several years patiently scanning the fabric selections at my usual fabric stores looking for something vaguely close. And in
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 17, 2007
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                                Poklon ot Sofya!

                                >------- Original Message -------
                                >
                                >QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
                                >(panova)? The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
                                >Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!

                                I just spent several years patiently scanning the fabric selections at my usual fabric stores looking for something vaguely close. And in the meantime I wore other overgarments - navershnik, zapona, over-rubakha, while I searched.

                                >EMBROIDERY: red around wrists and neck to ward of evil.

                                And red trim hides dirt.

                                >SOFYA: You mentioned that you were unsure of the
                                >"cross stitch". A book I borrowed on embroidery says that it's from the
                                >19th and 20th c and came from the west. A more period stitch is a long
                                >type of stitch.

                                Actually, I wouldn't say that I'm "unsure" of cross-stitch. I have done a lot of "long-armed cross stitch" based on 14th century German (the era of my husband's persona). I have seen many examples of period Russian embroidery from this period and earlier, but none show cross-stitch in any form. Nor is cross-stitch mentioned in any of the references I've seen on period Russian embroidery, although I freely admit I have not made a completely exhaustive investigation of this particular subject, yet (and the references are biased toward liturgical embroidery rather than peasant works). So I'm only 95-99% sure there is no early period Russian cross-stitch. ;)

                                >LARRY: Re: Use of term "Ukraine". Some of the reading I have done
                                >seems to state that it's a fairly modern term...

                                Yes. In earliest period, the different areas of the Rus (not "Russian") lands seem to have known by the name of the Slavic tribe inhabiting them - the Polianin, Volhynian, Derevlian, etc. lands. A little later, principalities were named, based on the lands ruled by Princes descended from the legendary Riurik - Galicia, Volhynia, Kiev (official home of the Grand Prince), Turov, Polotsk, etc. These southwestern principalities were gradually conquered by Poland and Lithuania in the 1200s to 1300s. This "western" influence and rule eventually led to the creation of the Ukrainian and Byelorus cultural identities.

                                >I once read that Ukrainians were the
                                >original slavic people of RUS and called themselves such.

                                The Ukranians are descended from the _several_ Slavic tribes that lived in the territory around/ruled by the first capital of the first Rus "state", the "mother of Russia", Kiev. So the statement is misleading, but not completely false.

                                >The book
                                >also stated that the Russian language evolved from Ukrainian.

                                Um. No. The modern eastern Slavic languages are descended from "Old Slavonic" (or "Old Russian," "Old Ukrainian", or "Old Bulgarian" or "Old Byelorussian", depending on your point of view). This ancient tongue survives in the liturgical language of the Eastern Orthodox churches - Old Church Slavonic.

                                >The author further went on to state that in order to stop the
                                >confusian and differ the RUS people from RUSSIANS, that once the Russian
                                >language came to be and the speakers of that language were called
                                >Russian, that the Rus began to call themselves Ruthenians and
                                >Ukrainiains to differentiate themselves.

                                "Russian" itself is a modern English word, so it is a little silly to argue about which ancient eastern Slav peoples are properly to be called "Russian" vs "Rus" vs "Ukrainian" vs. "Ruthenian" vs. "Russe", etc. In period texts (mostly foreign), Ruthenian, Russian, Rus and the equivalent terms in Latin, Greek, etc. - are used very confusingly to refer to various flavors of Slavic (and non-Slavic) peoples in the lands of Eastern Europe and the Balkans.

                                The other problem is that we are trying to inflict a 19th century, idea of "nationhood" on an era when such "nationalism" did not exist. I like to compare early Rus to medieval "Germany" - a group of people defined by foreign observers based on the foreigner's perception of a common language/culture (more or less), common religion, and superficial loyalty to a central ruler (the Grand Prince vs. the Holy Roman Emperor). The "Germans" and "Russians" were more likely to think of themselves as Thuringians, or Swabians, or Novgorodians, or Pskovians, or whatever. In my opinion, anyway.

                                >I've not read this anywhere
                                >else, so I suspect it may be ethnocentrism on the part of the author

                                Undoubtedly. But an understandable reaction to decades (centuries?) of oppression by Moscow-centric authoritarian rulers.

                                K tvoium uslugam,

                                Sofya



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Helena Frei
                                On the subject of cross-stitch. I haven t researched this in any detail, but from the timing of its popularity in various areas, it looks very much to me that
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 17, 2007
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                                  On the subject of cross-stitch. I haven't researched this in any
                                  detail, but from the timing of its popularity in various areas, it
                                  looks very much to me that the spread of cross-stitch as a dominant
                                  technique parallels the availability of machine-made fabrics with a
                                  mechanically even weave where the warp and the weft are the the same
                                  weight of thread.

                                  Counted-thread even-arm cross-stitch looks much better on a mechanical
                                  even-weave ground.

                                  A total wild-ass guess is that it made a realy visible statement along
                                  the lines of "I can afford bought fabric".

                                  Helena



                                  > >SOFYA: You mentioned that you were unsure of the
                                  > >"cross stitch". A book I borrowed on embroidery says that it's from the
                                  > >19th and 20th c and came from the west. A more period stitch is a long
                                  > >type of stitch.
                                  >
                                  > Actually, I wouldn't say that I'm "unsure" of cross-stitch. I have done a
                                  > lot of "long-armed cross stitch" based on 14th century German (the era of my
                                  > husband's persona). I have seen many examples of period Russian embroidery
                                  > from this period and earlier, but none show cross-stitch in any form. Nor is
                                  > cross-stitch mentioned in any of the references I've seen on period Russian
                                  > embroidery, although I freely admit I have not made a completely exhaustive
                                  > investigation of this particular subject, yet (and the references are biased
                                  > toward liturgical embroidery rather than peasant works). So I'm only 95-99%
                                  > sure there is no early period Russian cross-stitch. ;)
                                  >
                                • jennifer knox
                                  Hi (I tried to clip this post but for some reason it wont let me...sorry) Actually cross stitch was one of the most popular stitches in germany in the 15th
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 17, 2007
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                                    Hi (I tried to clip this post but for some reason it wont let me...sorry)
                                    Actually cross stitch was one of the most popular stitches in germany in the 15th century and up, and was known and used by other cultures and is found in all periods. Some of the earliest cross stitch (long and short arm) can be found on 6th century coptic embroideries...the museums here in germany are filled with examples. since i cant teleport you to them, here are some links with photos of cross stitch in period...no slavic ones, though, i hope this isnt too off topic!
                                    http://home.earthlink.net/~wymarc/asoot/cross/cross.htm
                                    http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/cross_stitch_patterns.html
                                    http://home.earthlink.net/~wymarc/asoot/stitch/westpat.htm

                                    you should also check out the Atlantian Embroiderer's Guild Timeline and Historic needlework for embroidery stitches, slavic ones too (although not many)
                                    http://aeg.atlantia.sca.org/timeline/1250-1492.htm
                                    http://medieval.webcon.net.au/

                                    if you can handle German, you should also look at www.bildindex.de
                                    its a completely searchable catalogue of the national german museum in Munich. its all there in pics with reference numbers. once you get the hang of navagating it, you won't be able to live without it!

                                    anyhow, again sorry if this is too off topic (but this is one of my crusades...don't get me wrong, i hate cross stitch, but it is period and was widely used) and sorry for not clipping the post!

                                    Anya



                                    Helena Frei <helena.frei@...> wrote:
                                    On the subject of cross-stitch. I haven't researched this in any
                                    detail, but from the timing of its popularity in various areas, it
                                    looks very much to me that the spread of cross-stitch as a dominant
                                    technique parallels the availability of machine-made fabrics with a
                                    mechanically even weave where the warp and the weft are the the same
                                    weight of thread.

                                    Counted-thread even-arm cross-stitch looks much better on a mechanical
                                    even-weave ground.

                                    A total wild-ass guess is that it made a realy visible statement along
                                    the lines of "I can afford bought fabric".

                                    Helena

                                    > >SOFYA: You mentioned that you were unsure of the
                                    > >"cross stitch". A book I borrowed on embroidery says that it's from the
                                    > >19th and 20th c and came from the west. A more period stitch is a long
                                    > >type of stitch.
                                    >
                                    > Actually, I wouldn't say that I'm "unsure" of cross-stitch. I have done a
                                    > lot of "long-armed cross stitch" based on 14th century German (the era of my
                                    > husband's persona). I have seen many examples of period Russian embroidery
                                    > from this period and earlier, but none show cross-stitch in any form. Nor is
                                    > cross-stitch mentioned in any of the references I've seen on period Russian
                                    > embroidery, although I freely admit I have not made a completely exhaustive
                                    > investigation of this particular subject, yet (and the references are biased
                                    > toward liturgical embroidery rather than peasant works). So I'm only 95-99%
                                    > sure there is no early period Russian cross-stitch. ;)
                                    >





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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • magdalenag56
                                    As part of my Polish persona I have tried to research Polish embroidery and with much of Polish women s clothing pre 17th C there isn t alot of documentable
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Feb 17, 2007
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                                      As part of my Polish persona I have tried to research "Polish"
                                      embroidery and with much of Polish women's clothing pre 17th C there
                                      isn't alot of documentable information.

                                      Here are my thoughts: I don't know enough about Russian embroidery to
                                      make a statement about whether there was or wasn't cross stitch
                                      embroidery. But in talking about the area now known as the Ukraine
                                      (is the Ukraine part of Poland or Russia? Depends on the year) There
                                      definitely has been used of a long armed "cross stitch" usually done
                                      with a red fiber. I also came across a blip when researching Polish
                                      embroidery that there was a style of embroidery in Poland that used
                                      no diagonal stitches. This would lend itself very well to a double
                                      running stitch, the technique used in traditional Western European
                                      Blackwork. Also, sometimes called the Holbein stitch.

                                      There is a similarity between this technique and some Islamic
                                      embroidery. More information can be found on my web page
                                      www.magdalenag.com as well as in an article I've been working on for
                                      an A&S publication.


                                      Magdalena Gdanska

                                      Magdalena Gdanska
                                    • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                      ... Great stuff, Magdalena! -- Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski Middle Kingdom, Pentamere, Shire of Talonval Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Feb 19, 2007
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                                        On 2/17/07, magdalenag56 <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > As part of my Polish persona I have tried to research "Polish"
                                        > embroidery and with much of Polish women's clothing pre 17th C there
                                        > isn't alot of documentable information.
                                        >
                                        > Here are my thoughts: I don't know enough about Russian embroidery to
                                        > make a statement about whether there was or wasn't cross stitch
                                        > embroidery. But in talking about the area now known as the Ukraine
                                        > (is the Ukraine part of Poland or Russia? Depends on the year) There
                                        > definitely has been used of a long armed "cross stitch" usually done
                                        > with a red fiber. I also came across a blip when researching Polish
                                        > embroidery that there was a style of embroidery in Poland that used
                                        > no diagonal stitches. This would lend itself very well to a double
                                        > running stitch, the technique used in traditional Western European
                                        > Blackwork. Also, sometimes called the Holbein stitch.
                                        >
                                        > There is a similarity between this technique and some Islamic
                                        > embroidery. More information can be found on my web page
                                        > www.magdalenag.com as well as in an article I've been working on for
                                        > an A&S publication.
                                        >
                                        > Magdalena Gdanska
                                        >
                                        > Magdalena Gdanska
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        Great stuff, Magdalena!
                                        --
                                        Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                        Middle Kingdom, Pentamere, Shire of Talonval
                                        Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
                                        SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org
                                        ""Are you too old to start fighting? No, you're not too old to start. Dead
                                        is too old."
                                        Baccus Kaloethes, age 53
                                        Squire to Sir Geoffrey Scott , CAID


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Kataryna Dragonweaver
                                        From the books I ve dug up it seems that some of the traditional dress elements could be used as very late period pesant dress. ... This is from the Ukrainian
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Feb 19, 2007
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                                          From the books I've dug up it seems that some of the traditional dress
                                          elements could be used as very late period pesant dress.

                                          >
                                          > IE: POLTAVA: Head dress - use temple beads instead of ribbons.
                                          > Flowers could work on the head dress as they are now, but beaded head
                                          > dress may be of a richer person. Plahkta (3 panel skirt) seems to have
                                          > been checkered as it is today, just a little longer. Shirt: one piece
                                          > going to at least below knees. Embroidery, but with thicker thread or
                                          > yarn. Woven sash. Colored boots with the sharp cut in front (like they
                                          > are now), but no heels. Puffy sleeves, possibly evolving from the big
                                          > sleeves that were "let down" to dance.

                                          This is from the Ukrainian costuming books the drawings are listed as
                                          peasent dress XI to XV centuries:
                                          The head dress with beads or metal ornaments can be used, tho all the
                                          hanging bits (ribbons) seem to be at the temples (ie: temple rings)
                                          rather then down the back.
                                          The three paneled skirt (open in the front) goes all the way to about
                                          two inches above the lenght of the underskirt... and yes checked.
                                          Woven sash - yes.
                                          I can't see what the boots look like... but there is a line drawing of
                                          a bunch of different shoes and boots on a different plate that says XI
                                          to XV CT. of which a couple look as you describe above, two have small
                                          heels (like the guys dance boots) one has high curved heels... and
                                          doesn't look like you could walk in them - maybe for riding.
                                          The one peice shirt (underdress of some sort) goes all the way to the
                                          ground.

                                          The puffy sleeves don't seem to be there, but extra long sleeves
                                          bunched up on the arms held up by cuffs at the wrist are shown.

                                          > QUESTION: Any guesses on whether the velvet, sleeveless coat (or
                                          > vest) of the POLTAVA REGION (central Ukraine, including Kiev) could have
                                          > been worn?


                                          The first picture of this I see is XVII to XVIII century... maybe
                                          really really late period (if you count 1650 as the SCA end point and
                                          not 1600... I think 1600 is what it is offically)

                                          >
                                          > QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
                                          > (panova)? The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
                                          > Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!
                                          >

                                          Hi - it's going to be pricey no matter what. Keep an eye out for sales
                                          at Fabric land/Fannys fabric. You can find light weight cheap tartan
                                          patterned wools or wool blends on Sale sometimes. If you are in
                                          Edmonton then you can check out the fabric store in Vegreville which
                                          also caters to the dance community - but it's expensive too. I got
                                          mine on sale at Fabric land.

                                          I don't worry to much at the pattern/colours since I haven't found
                                          anything that seems to indicate that the pattern was specific to a place.

                                          > HUTZEL: Shoes: pointed leather shoes, possibly tied around leg,
                                          > striped two panel skirt (or apron as it may appear to actually be),
                                          > elaborate head dress with beading instead of ribbons, sheepskin vest or
                                          > coat.

                                          Late period. Again the vest is probably after the SCA time frame.

                                          >
                                          > BUKOVINIAN: wrap skirt with corner turned up seems to be worn as
                                          > far back as bronze age (according to Romanian web page). (The
                                          > Bukovinina region crosses the border).

                                          Yes.

                                          > EMBROIDERY: red around wrists and neck to ward of evil.
                                          >

                                          Yes.


                                          > LARRY: Re: Use of term "Ukraine". Some of the reading I have done
                                          > seems to state that it's a fairly modern term as the Ukrainian peasants
                                          > had no real identity as a nation as borders and overlords changed so
                                          > much that they did not really see themselves as a nation. In fact Uke
                                          > immigrants to Canada in late 1800's often called themselves
                                          > "Ruthenians". RE: "Ruthenians" I once read that Ukrainians were the
                                          > original slavic people of RUS and called themselves such.

                                          My grand parents (emigrated 1890's) used the term Ukrainian.
                                          The cossacks were a seperate force from the Muscovy army in the late
                                          1500's.

                                          Some histories from the Ukrainian perspective vs. the Russian ones are
                                          here:
                                          http://www.ualberta.ca/CIUS/jacykcentre/HTP-main.htm
                                          or
                                          http://www.utoronto.ca/cius/bios/hrushevskybio.htm

                                          The U of A library has copies. I have the first three volumes.
                                          I suspect in regards to the language there are a number of
                                          ethnocentrisms on both sides. I have read that Ukrainian is the older
                                          language I have also read that they spawned from a root language.
                                          The Rus information I've looked up seems to base alot of it's style
                                          and pictures on the Novgorod site and not so much on the objects and
                                          style in and around Kyiv. Looking at objects from the Ukrainian museum
                                          sites and those found in/around Kyiv seems to indicate more influence
                                          from Byzantium... so I think there were differences in both the
                                          society and the clothing - tho it may be more subtle and more in terms
                                          of different decorations. While the area of the Ukraine may not have
                                          been a different state then Rus it went though a number of changes;
                                          and depending on where and when you place yourself you might be ruled
                                          by Polish, Lithuanian, German or Rus. However, the people from the
                                          Ukrainian area seemed to have their own distinct culture and styles
                                          through all of it.

                                          -Kataryna
                                        • Susan Koziel
                                          I think this (see below) was supposed to go to the list and not to me personally; since I wasn t the one looking for the fabric. As an aside, I do know someone
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Feb 28, 2007
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                                            I think this (see below) was supposed to go to the list and not to me personally; since I wasn't the one looking for the fabric.

                                            As an aside, I do know someone who will do replica commision work for Ukrainian weaving; but it doesn't come quickly or cheaply as her contracts with museums take precedence. It's significantly more the 95$ a meter - but it will be from wool. If anyone is interested, I can put you in touch with her.

                                            -Kataryna

                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: billjula2004 <vasyl@...>
                                            To: Kataryna Dragonweaver <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
                                            Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:33:25 PM
                                            Subject: Re: Period Ukrainian Costumes


                                            To whome it may concern

                                            > QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
                                            The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
                                            > > Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!

                                            I know the material & in my oppinion it is junk but it is the only
                                            matreial to be had here in north America. I have had 2 Plakhta's woven
                                            in Ukraine ( oh by the way please use "Ukraine" & not "the Ukraine" the
                                            artical THE is not needed, you wouldn't say the France.) it cost more
                                            the $95 but it is of wool like the real ones & more colorful.


                                            Vasyl Jula
                                          • bettybetravellin
                                            Thanks for the info. As well as looking to see if I can do period-style Ukie garb for myself that will double duty for the SCA and when I am in front of an
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Feb 28, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Thanks for the info. As well as looking to see if I can do period-style Ukie garb for myself that will double duty for the SCA and when I am in front of an audience speaking, I also teach Ukie dance.
                                              So, I am also looking to find some plakhta material for the adult group I've just started. Unfortunately, the budget is tight, so alas, having it woven here or purchasing it from Ukraine, is not an option.

                                              If anyone else has any ideas for inexpensive look-a-likes for the plakhta material (Poltava), I'm all ears! (I've thought about using plaid, but it looks, well, plaid, and doesn't work, in my opinion).

                                              Thanks!
                                              Jeanne

                                              Susan Koziel <kataryna_dragonweaver@...> wrote:
                                              I think this (see below) was supposed to go to the list and not to me personally; since I wasn't the one looking for the fabric.

                                              As an aside, I do know someone who will do replica commision work for Ukrainian weaving; but it doesn't come quickly or cheaply as her contracts with museums take precedence. It's significantly more the 95$ a meter - but it will be from wool. If anyone is interested, I can put you in touch with her.

                                              -Kataryna

                                              ----- Original Message ----
                                              From: billjula2004 <vasyl@...>
                                              To: Kataryna Dragonweaver <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
                                              Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:33:25 PM
                                              Subject: Re: Period Ukrainian Costumes

                                              To whome it may concern

                                              > QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
                                              The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
                                              > > Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!

                                              I know the material & in my oppinion it is junk but it is the only
                                              matreial to be had here in north America. I have had 2 Plakhta's woven
                                              in Ukraine ( oh by the way please use "Ukraine" & not "the Ukraine" the
                                              artical THE is not needed, you wouldn't say the France.) it cost more
                                              the $95 but it is of wool like the real ones & more colorful.

                                              Vasyl Jula





                                              ---------------------------------
                                              Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger with Voice

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Kataryna Dragonweaver
                                              I ll poke around Vegreville and see what I can find. The dance groups here are also on pretty tight budgets - so they must have something. -Kataryna ...
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Mar 1, 2007
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                                                I'll poke around Vegreville and see what I can find. The dance groups
                                                here are also on pretty tight budgets - so they must have something.
                                                -Kataryna

                                                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, bettybetravellin <bettybetravellin@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for the info. As well as looking to see if I can do
                                                period-style Ukie garb for myself that will double duty for the SCA
                                                and when I am in front of an audience speaking, I also teach Ukie dance.
                                                > So, I am also looking to find some plakhta material for the adult
                                                group I've just started. Unfortunately, the budget is tight, so alas,
                                                having it woven here or purchasing it from Ukraine, is not an option.
                                                >
                                                > If anyone else has any ideas for inexpensive look-a-likes for the
                                                plakhta material (Poltava), I'm all ears! (I've thought about using
                                                plaid, but it looks, well, plaid, and doesn't work, in my opinion).
                                                >
                                                > Thanks!
                                                > Jeanne
                                                >
                                                > Susan Koziel <kataryna_dragonweaver@...> wrote:
                                                > I think this (see below) was supposed to go to the list
                                                and not to me personally; since I wasn't the one looking for the fabric.
                                                >
                                                > As an aside, I do know someone who will do replica commision work
                                                for Ukrainian weaving; but it doesn't come quickly or cheaply as her
                                                contracts with museums take precedence. It's significantly more the
                                                95$ a meter - but it will be from wool. If anyone is interested, I can
                                                put you in touch with her.
                                                >
                                                > -Kataryna
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                                > From: billjula2004 <vasyl@...>
                                                > To: Kataryna Dragonweaver <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
                                                > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:33:25 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: Period Ukrainian Costumes
                                                >
                                                > To whome it may concern
                                                >
                                                > > QUESTION: Does anyone know how to duplicate the checkered plahtka
                                                > The wool checkered material from the Ukraine is about $95
                                                > > > Cdn/metre at a dance supply store in Edmonton. Ouch!
                                                >
                                                > I know the material & in my oppinion it is junk but it is the only
                                                > matreial to be had here in north America. I have had 2 Plakhta's woven
                                                > in Ukraine ( oh by the way please use "Ukraine" & not "the Ukraine" the
                                                > artical THE is not needed, you wouldn't say the France.) it cost more
                                                > the $95 but it is of wool like the real ones & more colorful.
                                                >
                                                > Vasyl Jula
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ---------------------------------
                                                > Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada
                                                Messenger with Voice
                                                >
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                                                >
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