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RE: Re[2]: [sig] Rus' coat closures

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  • L.M. Kies
    ... In pre-Mongol Novgorod, the garment you refer to is known as a svita. Rabinovich indicates that this likely developed into what we now know as the kaftan
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 2 5:09 PM
      >------- Original Message -------
      >> > >2. Are frogs OK?
      >>> >
      >> > They're better than zippers. ;) I have not seen the fancy looped
      >> > decoration on period items, but the idea of a button/loop closure is
      > >> correct.
      >> For what it's worth in a discussion about C13 russian, there are fancy frog
      >> closures, in a couple of twist / weave patterns, found at Birka. So they are
      >> period, just maybe not right period.

      >As for pre-Mongol Novgorod, there WAS a garment (kaftan afair) with frogs dug out there. Not my >period, so there will be no book/fact references, - I simply had a chat with a guy from a neighboring re-
      >creation club, who just made such for a re-creators event, referring to that excavation. The peculiar >thing, though, that [he said] it was the only one of the kind, thus there's no guarantee they used to wear >such, and it was not an accidental borrowing.

      In pre-Mongol Novgorod, the garment you refer to is known as a svita. Rabinovich indicates that this likely developed into what we now know as the kaftan or perhaps the zipun.

      When I hear people talk about "frogs" I think of the "Chinese" frogs with big loops that are readily available at most clothing stores:

      There are other versions, mostly variations of fancy ornamental cording:

      And some people seem to use the term "frog" for any button-loop closure whether it is attached to a piece of ornamental cording or not.

      Button-loop closures are definitely appropriate for 13th cent. Rus. "Chinese" frogs are not something I've seen either pictured or described for this period, but I'd love to see documentation if you've got it for Birka. Some of the other frog types are more plausible, such as the ones at the bottom of this page:

      Kolchin shows a fairly decorative way of forming a row of loops on a Russian standing collar (to fasten 3 closely spaced metal buttons) that some people might be inclined to call a "frog" on p. 313 of Drevnyaya Rus Byt i Kultura, although it's basically just a nice knot at the base of each loop that holds the loop stable as the cord moves on to the next loop in the row. Kolchin calls it a zastezhka s petel'kami, closure with eyelets.

      I'd send the picture as an attachment, but I know yahoo! strips off attachments.

      You could also go without the horizontal strips completely as these fine folk have done:

      Oh, and here are one merchant's interpretation of some Birka buttons. These are fairly close to what is shown in Drevnyaya Rus Byt i Kul'tura, p. 313, p. 318 and the stone molds on p. 366:


      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      "Si no necare, sana."

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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