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Hemp, was Re: linen vs. cotton was[sig] polish garb

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  • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
    ... here s a slightly updated version of an article on Hemp and Nettle that I wrote for Slovo: Hemp and Nettle: Two Food/Fiber/Medical plants in use in Eastern
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 4, 2006
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      > Hmmmm - interesting!
      > I had been under the impression that hemp was valued
      > as rope; hadn't realized it was common for sailcloth.
      > Bet it made really strong sails!
      >
      > Eluned
      >

      here's a slightly updated version of an article on Hemp and Nettle that
      I wrote for Slovo:

      Hemp and Nettle:
      Two Food/Fiber/Medical plants in use in Eastern Europe.
      by Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
      Originally published in Slovo, the newsletter of the Slavic Interest
      Group

      Most of us are familiar with flax and its byproducts including linen and
      linseed oil. However, two related plants show up in East and Central
      Europe for similar purposes: hemp (Cannabis sativa) and nettle (Urtica
      dioica). Both hemp and nettle fibers were used to make cloth, as well as
      being used for food and medicine: remember Shakespeare's 'Hempen
      Homespuns' and the story of Seven Swans whose sister had to spin and
      weave them all nettlecloth shirts without speaking, to turn them back
      into humans?

      Generally, Herodotus' description of the Scythians (residents of what
      would become the Crimea) using hemp is considered the first mention of
      hemp in Russia. Apparently the Scythians used hemp in their steam/sauna
      baths: "These tents were made of thick felt, with all cracks carefully
      sealed up. Inside was placed a bowl full of red-hot stones, onto which
      cannabis seeds were thrown. According to Herodotus, the Scythians would
      howl with delight as they breathed in the fumes. Sitting in these tents
      was clearly one of their favorite pasttimes. The reference to seeds of
      in Herodotus and other sources is puzzling, since as any cannnibis
      smoker knows, the seeds are by far the least intoxicating part of the
      plant. But as the flowering heads, the most potent element, also contain
      the seeds, such confusion is understandable..." (P. James and N. Thorpe,
      Ancient Inventions; NY: Ballantine, 1994, p. 342.) [Interestingly, the
      authors of Ancient Inventions claim that this is confirmed by the finds
      of hempseeds and hempseed smoking kits in tombs on the borders of Russia
      and Mongolia-- presumably the assumption is that the flower heads rotted
      but the seeds remained?]

      However, after the dates of this reference, the archaelogical and
      historical records pretty much fall silent about pot smoking. Instead,
      more mundane uses of hemp crop up. (I find it significant that though
      Arabic and Roman authorities-- i.e. Galen-- mention medicinal
      pot-smoking, it's seldom mentioned in Northern European medieval and
      renaissance sources. Perhaps their hemp was closer to modern industrial
      hemp than the Arabic kind-- apparently the cultivars are significantly
      different.)

      Hemp, as a fiber plant, appears to have spread from the mediterranean
      through the Roman area and also perhaps from the East. The Scythians
      died out before the fall of Rome, and connections between them and
      modern Slavs are considered tenuous by most historians I've read. (An
      excellent article on hemp, nettle, and other fibers such as bast appears
      in World Wide Words, "Fibres from the Earth: Names for some natural
      materials," by Michael Quinion:
      http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/fibres.htm).

      R.J. Forbes, Studies in Ancient Technology, vol IV (EJ Brill, 1987,
      copyright 1956/1964), says, on page 60: "The plant [hemp] came to
      prehistoric Europe from Southern Russia, as is also evident from the
      etymology of the terms for hemp in Indo-Germanic Languages. At
      Wilmersdorf fruit and seeds of hemp were found but no fibres. It may
      have been smoked in the pipes found in the Celtic area of Western
      Switzerland. The Goths brought the plant from Western Russia in the
      second and third century AD and only then did the use of the fibres in
      central Europe start. The Slavonic migrations of the ninth century gave
      a new impetus to its cultivation which begins to displace flax in
      certain regions. It was also used by the Vikings but is still regarded
      with antipathy in medieval western Europe."

      Both hemp and flax were major agricultural crops in Russia in period.
      Hemp was grown in the south, flax in the north. According to the
      Encyclopedia Britannica, one of the major exports of the Muscovy Company
      (founded in the second half of the 16th century) was hemp.

      According to many textile sources, the archaelogical record of hemp and
      nettle fabric is confused by the fact that archaelogists, not being able
      to tell hemp, nettle and flax cloth apart without chemical testing, use
      the term 'linen' to refer to any fabric of spun and woven vegetable
      fibers. (Apparently, however, Czech archaelogists call all such fabrics
      'hemp', according to Alastair Miller.) Linen is not distinguishable from
      hemp or nettle cloth in paintings, either.

      Both hemp and nettle have been used to make fabric since prehistoric
      times, as alternatives to flax, and processed similarly to flax. Hemp,
      with fibers up to 12 feet long, produces a stronger thread than flax;
      nettle produces a somewhat "finer and silkier" fabric than flax. (E.W.
      Barber, Women's Work: the first 20,000 Years: Women, cloth and society
      in early times. W.W. Norton, 1994).

      For near-period English instructions on growing, harvesting and
      processing hemp, see Gervase Markham's English Housewife, 1615. Hemp can
      be either wet retted, by immersion in water such as a pond or stream, or
      dew retted, by laying in the fields. Once "the fiber bundles appear
      white, separate from the woody core, and divide easily into individual,
      finer fibers for their full length," retting is complete, and the stems
      are dried, then broken with a 'breaker'. The fibers are separated using
      processes known as 'scutching' (beating), then hanckled (combed) for
      spinning. (Advances in Hemp Research)

      The Muscovy Company (1555-1649) exported hemp (probably for rope rather
      than cloth) from Russia during their period of operation (Encyclopedia
      Britannica). Hemp and nettle cloth have reportedly been found among the
      clothing in the Scandinavian graves at Birka (Thora Sharptooth, quoted
      in Stefan's Florilegium:
      http://www.florilegium.org/files/TEXTILES/hemp-cloth-msg.html)

      Hemp seeds and a fragment of hemp cloth were found the excavations of
      the 12th century levels of Gniezno, according to M. Polcyn,
      "Archaeobotanical Evidence for Food Plants in the Poland of the Piasts
      (10th-13th Centuries AD)", Biological Journal of Scotland, vol 46, no 4,
      p 533-537: "In archaeological sites hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) has been
      found as uncharred achenes. In the early Middle Ages hemp became an
      important technological plant used in the production of thick cloth.
      Fragments of such cloth have been discovered in Gniezno." (p. 535)
      Sophie Knab (Polish Herbs, Flowers & Folk Medicine, Hippocrene Books,
      1995), says of Hemp: ". . . widely cultivated in Poland for its oil and
      fibers. The fibers of hemp were retted, dried and broken on a flax
      brake-- similar to the process used for flax. The thick inner fibers
      were spun on the spinning wheel and then designated for making sacking
      or very strong thread. They were often plied together to make rope."
      Nettle cloth, says Knab, was used in Poland from the 12th century
      onward; "Nettle thread was used in Poland from ancient times up until
      the 17th century when it was replaced by silk." (It also had
      superstitious uses: "Slavic people have attributed magical properties to
      [nettle] since ancient times," using it to defend against demons,
      disperse storms and protect against lightning as well.)

      At least in western Europe, hemp appears to have often been grown in
      small plots and cultivated with garden tools rather than field equipment
      ( Medieval farming and technology : the impact of agricultural change in
      northwest Europe, edited by G. Astill and J. Langdon, New York : Brill,
      1997.). From various references, one suspects that nettle may have been
      primarily gathered from the wild rather than cultivated.

      The Hemp Museum's history page
      (http://hempmuseum.org/SUBROOMS/HEMP%20TEXTILE%20HISTORY.htm) quotes a
      number of statements from The Book of Fine Linen, by Françoise de
      Bonneville (Paris: Flammarion , 1994):

      "Starting around 1322...The finest sheets were of linen, most were
      of hemp, and the poorest woven from tow, scrap hemp, or flax combings. .
      . up to the end of the seventeenth century, sheets were generally made
      from linen or hemp. Historians, citing the fact that the founding of the
      hemp-weavers guild long predated that of the linen-weavers, believe that
      hemp was far more common than linen until the late fourteenth century."

      While hemp can be harvested for either the fiber or the seeds, it
      appears that hemp for fiber needs to be harvested before it goes to
      seed; so different plots would be alloted for fiber production than for
      seed. Advances in Hemp Research (edited by Paolo Ranalli, New York :
      Food Products Press, 1999) says: "The centuries-old method of hemp
      textile production involves . . . Harvesting after flowering but before
      the seeds set, when the stems are whitening at the base and the leaves
      are starting to drop. The fiber content is reduced and becomes coarser
      toward seed formation. Where it is desired to obtain fiber and seed the
      male plants are first collected by hand pulling, and the female plants
      are left to enable the seeds to ripen."

      Magdalena of Vratislavia noted on the Slavic Interest Group list that:

      In "POLONIA SIVE DE SITU, POPULIS, MORIBUS, MAGISTRATIBUS ET
      REPUBLICA REGNI
      POLONICI LIBRI DUO" by Marcin Kromer , first time printed in 1575,
      then 1578 etc. Book one: subtitle: occupations of woman: "Noble ladies
      and maids are taking care of wool, linen and hem..." (in my
      translations)

      Hemp seed oil, obtained by crushing, was a major part of Polish, Russian
      and other Eastern European countries. Hempseed and poppyseed oils were
      necessary for cooking when fast-day restrictions forbade the use of
      animal fats in cooking. In Russia, say Smith and Christian (Bread and
      Salt: A social and economic history of food and drink in Russia. NY:
      Cambridge University Press, 1984), "Hemp and flax . . . were used in
      dishes with peas, for instance, or gave oil which was either an element
      in various dishes or the medium in which they were cooked." (p. 5) The
      Domostroi advises that stores of hempseed and hempseed oil should be
      kept in the house; the post period menus therein include several
      varieties of hempseed cakes, as well as mentions of hempseed oil.

      Hempseed was also stewed into a sort of porridge, popular in Poland.
      According to Dembinska (Food and Drink in Medieval Poland, University of
      PA Press, 1999), hempseed porridge/soup appears to have been served in
      monasteries, garrisons and to the poor; it's unclear whether the
      hempseed oil was extracted first. Though no Eastern European recipes for
      hempseed porridge survive, there is a hempseed porridge recipe in the
      Italian heath handbook by Platina, and the Underground Cooks Collective
      have published a redaction of the recipe on the SCA-Cooks list, and it
      is included in the Florilegium file on Hemp:
      http://www.florilegium.org/files/PLANTS/hemp-msg.html

      The 16th century Polish herbalist Syrenniusz (via Knab) mentions nettle
      cooked with snails, and Lang (George Lang's Cuisine of Hungary) mentions
      the same dish in Hungary. Syrenniusz suggested it for gas and stomach
      cleansing. Smith & Christian also cite nettle, along with sorrel,
      goose-foot and ground-elder as plants that were probably harvested and
      consumed locally in Russia (p.10) .

      Both nettle and hemp were recommended by physicians as treatments.
      Zevin (A Russian Herbal: Traditional Remedies for Health and Healing,
      Healing Arts Press, 1997) notes ". . . during the seventeenth century
      physician's primary interest in nettle centered around the treatment of
      wounds. One Russian herbal of that period, (known simply as The Herbal
      Book) describes the use of nettle: 'we chew raw nettle, mash it and
      apply it to fresh wounds, and so we clean and heal the wounds.' For old,
      infected wounds, the practitioner was advised to crush both the nettle
      leaves and seeds, and add salt: 'Apply to old infected wounds and they
      will get the dead tissue out and heal the wounds.'" (p. 106)

      Hildegarde of Bingen in her treatise on Physic (translated by Patricia
      Throop, Healing Arts Press, 1998) discussed not only the humeric
      properties of hempseed but the use of hemp cloth as a bandage:

      "Hemp is hot, and it grows where the air is neither very hot nor
      very cold, and its nature is similar. Its seed is salubrious, and good
      as food for healthy people. It is gentle and profitable to the stomach,
      taking away a bit of its mucus. It is easy to digest, diminishes bad
      humors, and fortifies good humors. Nevertheless, if one who is weak in
      the head, and has a vacant brain, eats hemp, it easily afflicts his
      head. It does not harm one who has a healthy head and full brain. If one
      is very ill, it even afflicts his stomach a bit. Eating it does not hurt
      one who is moderately ill.
      [Let one who was a cold stomach cook hemp in water and, when the
      water has been squeezed out, wrap it in a small cloth, and frequently
      place it, warm, on his stomach. This strengthens and renews that area.
      Also, a cloth made from hemp is good for binding ulcers and wounds,
      since the heat in it has been tempered.]"

      Hildegarde also recommended eating the young shoots of nettle as a tonic
      (as American modern and colonial herbalists suggest), "Nettle is very
      hot in its own way. It is not at all good eaten raw, because of its
      harshness. But, when it newly sprouts from the ground, it is good when
      cooked, as food for a human. It purges his stomach and takes mucus away
      from it. Any kind of nettle does this." She also suggested preparations
      of nettle, to cure internal worms in humans, internal discomfort in
      horses, and even as a treatment for senility: "And, a person who is
      unwillingly forgetful should pound stinging nettle to a juice, and add a
      bit of olive oil. When he goes to bed, he should thoroughly anoint his
      chest and temples with it. If he does this often, forgetfulness will
      diminish."

      Nowadays, it's increasingly possible to buy hemp cloth and hempseed oil,
      though hempseed oil for consumption may or may not be available in the
      U.S. Nettlecloth is not so easy to get, but ramie, a cloth made from
      the fibers of an Asian nettle (Boehmeria nivea), is a reasonable
      substitute. Books like Eugene Gibbons' Stalking the Healthful Herbs will
      help you find nettle in the wild, either for consumption or textiles.
      Have fun expanding your knowledge of these plants!

      -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

      Copyright, 2002-2003 Jennifer A Heise, All rights reserved

      --
      -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
      "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it screams
      'Why don't you ever listen to me?' and lets fly with a club."
    • Lynda Fjellman
      ... Laughing. Yes, from my experience, nettles do not need to be cultivated. They do just fine on their own. I have several clumps of them if anyone wants
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 4, 2006
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        >From various references, one suspects that nettle may have been
        >primarily gathered from the wild rather than cultivated.

        Laughing. Yes, from my experience, nettles do not need to be
        cultivated. They do just fine on their own. I have several clumps of
        them if anyone wants some.
        Ilaria
        At least they aren't as bad as the blackberries.
      • Kataryna Dragonweaver
        Hi, From genetic studies hemp originated in China as an oil-seed crop... the fibre crop is bred in Europe, and the high THC (drug) variety is bred in Southern
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 4, 2006
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          Hi,
          From genetic studies hemp originated in China as an oil-seed crop...
          the fibre crop is bred in Europe, and the high THC (drug) variety is
          bred in Southern Asia. See "Advances in Hemp Research By Paolo
          Ranalli" pages 7 to 12. By th 1500's there is s difference between the
          fibre, oil, and drug varieties. My personal opinion (based on nothing
          other then lots of reading and gut feeling) is that the fibre races
          that were grown in colder climates needed to produce less insecticidal
          proteins (which is one of the reasons hemp produces THC in the first
          place) - so over time the plants may loose the ability to produce high
          amounts of THC. Also, when choosing plants with good fibre content
          plants that grow straight and not branched are perfered, therefore
          (because the buds are at the tops of the branches) significantly less
          buds are produced.
          Between these two factors, in a few generations of plants you may
          inadvertantly get less THC production just by choosing those plants
          that gave good fibre. We know that humans have been involved in
          actively selecting "the best plant" for their crops since before
          recorded history... so this could be a reason accounts fall silent
          about pot smoking in Europe rather quickly.
          Also, IIRC, drug production is indirectly linked to the heat and
          moisture that the hemp is grown in... hotter and moister = more THC in
          fibre varieties. So, that could be another reason the nothern climate
          didn't stimulate high amounts of psychoactive compounds.

          I've also stumbled across a mention of a hungarian tax of hemp on
          villages/farms (see excerpt below). I suspect this would be used for
          fabric (sail cloth, tent cloth, and occasionally clothing).
          -Kataryna
          An overview of Hemp production in Hungary, please keep
          in mind this is a sciences book about modern fiber
          crop practices and the history sections are a broad
          overview; excerpt copied directly from
          "Bast and other plant fibres", edited by Robert R
          Franck, Woodhead Publishing Ltd., 2005
          Chapter 4 by J. Sponner, L. Toth, S. Cziger, and R.R.
          Franck

          "Part 1
          4.1 Introduction: hemp in Hungary
          Hemp was first mentioned in chronicles of the 12th
          century, after the Hungarian settlement of the
          Carpathian Basin. In 1198 the customs tariff of
          Esztergom enumerates numerates plants including hemp
          and flax. Another record mentions that the pwner of a
          cart carrying hemp or flax had to pay four bundles of
          hemp or flax as duty and according to other records
          dated 1309 a 42 acre hemp field was required for every
          57 acres of land held in villeinage.
          In the Middle Ages hemp processing, spinning and
          weaving were quite common and this work was an
          intrinsic part of the villeins' feudal obligations.
          According to a document dated 1324, of the 17
          industries listed in Hungary, spinning and weaving
          seem to have been most important.
          It is evident that in the life of the Hungarian
          people hemp has a history of a thousand years, and
          knowledge of the growing and processing of hemp was
          used to make harder-wearing fabrics. Hemp served other
          requirements as well and rope, twine, bags,
          tarpaulins, etc., were produced for agricultural and
          other purposes.
          On small farms and later on large estates hemp was
          essential. On the estates the first machines that were
          operated by mobile steam engines replaced manual tools
          and these engines were fuelled by hemp hurds. In this
          way hemp process waste was used to generate energy for
          the machines. Gradually the demand for hemp products
          grew and production increased to satisfy these wider
          markets. Hemp followed the economic and social changes
          of this lengthy period; it was part of the
          industrialization of the country and it formed the
          basis of its textile industry.
          The city of Szeged played and important role in the
          development of the Hungarian hemp industry. With the
          help of its natural waterway, the Tisza, Szeged – an
          extensive stock breeding centre – became one of the
          biggest collecting and distributive markets in the
          southern part of the country. According to Medieval
          sources, agricultural products, livestock and
          industrial products from distant regions were sold at
          large and busy fairs. The city was not only a trading
          centre but also an important staging post for traffic
          to Italy, the Balkans and the East and the traveler of
          the time could find a relatively well-developed guild
          life within its walls. In 1522 the tithe register of
          the Diocese of Bacs lists 291 independent tradesmen,
          two of them being ropemakers. After gradually
          expelling the Turks from the country the fight for
          freedom against the Habsburgs prevented the economy
          from developing and this situation improved only in
          the middle of the 18th century. The prosperity of the
          economy was greatly helped by settled German
          craftsmanship and the guilds of the city flourished.
          The development of shipping on the river Tisza
          (especially transporting wheat and other agricultural
          products) stimulated the shipbuilding industry, heavy
          canvas and rope manufacture. The rope manufacturers of
          Szeged received their first charter of incorporation
          from Maria Theresa on 20 May 1743.
          The processing of hemp and manufacturing was done in
          small guilds that could be found especially in the
          southern cities of the country. At this time `factory
          size' hemp processing did not exist and only in the
          last two decades of the 18th century do we find three
          `factory sized rope-walks'. All three were situated on
          the coast at Fume, in present Croatia.
          The raw material for the numerous little guilds was
          mainly supplied from abroad as the limited production
          of hemp from the small farms was not sufficient to
          satisfy the `hungry' industry's requirements. The
          local authorities in the country became aware of this
          situation and took important steps to develop hemp
          processing; in other words, it became essential that
          hemp processing develop into a manufacturing industry.
          A survey was made in order to establish which areas
          were most suitable for the cultivation of hemp and
          flax and 20 tonnes of high fibre yield seed was
          brought from Italy. Peasants from Bologna, who had
          several decades of experience in the growing and
          processing of hemp, were settled in the southern part
          of the country. In 1865 Count Rezso Chotek founded the
          first hemp factory in Hungary in Futak-Ojvidik (today
          Novi-Sad, in present Yugoslavia). This plant included
          scotching and other primary processing of the hemp.
          Following the establishment of this factory others
          (spinning, weaving, ropewalks, etc.) sprang up like
          mushrooms."

          This chapter goes on for 4 more paragraphs but
          concerns the modernized factory processes.



          -Kataryna
        • Tracy Kremer
          That was fascinating! Thank you, milady. Eluned ... CONTACT ME FOR CUST0M NECKLACES! For SCA, New Age, and lovers of amber and semiprecious stones...silver
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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            That was fascinating! Thank you, milady.

            Eluned
            --- Kataryna Dragonweaver
            <kataryna_dragonweaver@...> wrote:

            > Hi,
            > From genetic studies hemp originated in China as
            > an oil-seed crop...
            > the fibre crop is bred in Europe, and the high THC
            > (drug) variety is
            > bred in Southern Asia. See "Advances in Hemp
            > Research By Paolo
            > Ranalli" pages 7 to 12. By th 1500's there is s
            > difference between the
            > fibre, oil, and drug varieties. My personal opinion
            > (based on nothing
            > other then lots of reading and gut feeling) is that
            > the fibre races
            > that were grown in colder climates needed to produce
            > less insecticidal
            > proteins (which is one of the reasons hemp produces
            > THC in the first
            > place) - so over time the plants may loose the
            > ability to produce high
            > amounts of THC. Also, when choosing plants with good
            > fibre content
            > plants that grow straight and not branched are
            > perfered, therefore
            > (because the buds are at the tops of the branches)
            > significantly less
            > buds are produced.
            > Between these two factors, in a few generations of
            > plants you may
            > inadvertantly get less THC production just by
            > choosing those plants
            > that gave good fibre. We know that humans have been
            > involved in
            > actively selecting "the best plant" for their crops
            > since before
            > recorded history... so this could be a reason
            > accounts fall silent
            > about pot smoking in Europe rather quickly.
            > Also, IIRC, drug production is indirectly linked
            > to the heat and
            > moisture that the hemp is grown in... hotter and
            > moister = more THC in
            > fibre varieties. So, that could be another reason
            > the nothern climate
            > didn't stimulate high amounts of psychoactive
            > compounds.
            >
            > I've also stumbled across a mention of a
            > hungarian tax of hemp on
            > villages/farms (see excerpt below). I suspect this
            > would be used for
            > fabric (sail cloth, tent cloth, and occasionally
            > clothing).
            > -Kataryna
            > An overview of Hemp production in Hungary, please
            > keep
            > in mind this is a sciences book about modern fiber
            > crop practices and the history sections are a broad
            > overview; excerpt copied directly from
            > "Bast and other plant fibres", edited by Robert R
            > Franck, Woodhead Publishing Ltd., 2005
            > Chapter 4 by J. Sponner, L. Toth, S. Cziger, and
            > R.R.
            > Franck
            >
            > "Part 1
            > 4.1 Introduction: hemp in Hungary
            > Hemp was first mentioned in chronicles of the 12th
            > century, after the Hungarian settlement of the
            > Carpathian Basin. In 1198 the customs tariff of
            > Esztergom enumerates numerates plants including hemp
            > and flax. Another record mentions that the pwner of
            > a
            > cart carrying hemp or flax had to pay four bundles
            > of
            > hemp or flax as duty and according to other records
            > dated 1309 a 42 acre hemp field was required for
            > every
            > 57 acres of land held in villeinage.
            > In the Middle Ages hemp processing, spinning and
            > weaving were quite common and this work was an
            > intrinsic part of the villeins' feudal obligations.
            > According to a document dated 1324, of the 17
            > industries listed in Hungary, spinning and weaving
            > seem to have been most important.
            > It is evident that in the life of the Hungarian
            > people hemp has a history of a thousand years, and
            > knowledge of the growing and processing of hemp was
            > used to make harder-wearing fabrics. Hemp served
            > other
            > requirements as well and rope, twine, bags,
            > tarpaulins, etc., were produced for agricultural and
            > other purposes.
            > On small farms and later on large estates hemp was
            > essential. On the estates the first machines that
            > were
            > operated by mobile steam engines replaced manual
            > tools
            > and these engines were fuelled by hemp hurds. In
            > this
            > way hemp process waste was used to generate energy
            > for
            > the machines. Gradually the demand for hemp products
            > grew and production increased to satisfy these wider
            > markets. Hemp followed the economic and social
            > changes
            > of this lengthy period; it was part of the
            > industrialization of the country and it formed the
            > basis of its textile industry.
            > The city of Szeged played and important role in the
            > development of the Hungarian hemp industry. With the
            > help of its natural waterway, the Tisza, Szeged – an
            > extensive stock breeding centre – became one of the
            > biggest collecting and distributive markets in the
            > southern part of the country. According to Medieval
            > sources, agricultural products, livestock and
            > industrial products from distant regions were sold
            > at
            > large and busy fairs. The city was not only a
            > trading
            > centre but also an important staging post for
            > traffic
            > to Italy, the Balkans and the East and the traveler
            > of
            > the time could find a relatively well-developed
            > guild
            > life within its walls. In 1522 the tithe register of
            > the Diocese of Bacs lists 291 independent tradesmen,
            > two of them being ropemakers. After gradually
            > expelling the Turks from the country the fight for
            > freedom against the Habsburgs prevented the economy
            > from developing and this situation improved only in
            > the middle of the 18th century. The prosperity of
            > the
            > economy was greatly helped by settled German
            > craftsmanship and the guilds of the city flourished.
            > The development of shipping on the river Tisza
            > (especially transporting wheat and other
            > agricultural
            > products) stimulated the shipbuilding industry,
            > heavy
            > canvas and rope manufacture. The rope manufacturers
            > of
            > Szeged received their first charter of incorporation
            > from Maria Theresa on 20 May 1743.
            > The processing of hemp and manufacturing was done in
            > small guilds that could be found especially in the
            > southern cities of the country. At this time
            > `factory
            > size' hemp processing did not exist and only in the
            > last two decades of the 18th century do we find
            > three
            > `factory sized rope-walks'. All three were situated
            > on
            > the coast at Fume, in present Croatia.
            > The raw material for the numerous little guilds was
            > mainly supplied from abroad as the limited
            > production
            > of hemp from the small farms was not sufficient to
            > satisfy the `hungry' industry's requirements. The
            > local authorities in the country became aware of
            > this
            > situation and took important steps to develop hemp
            > processing; in other words, it became essential that
            > hemp processing develop into a manufacturing
            > industry.
            > A survey was made in order to establish which areas
            > were most suitable for the cultivation of hemp and
            > flax and 20 tonnes of high fibre yield seed was
            > brought from Italy. Peasants from Bologna, who had
            > several decades of experience in the growing and
            > processing of hemp, were settled in the southern
            > part
            > of the country. In 1865 Count Rezso Chotek founded
            > the
            > first hemp factory in Hungary in Futak-Ojvidik
            > (today
            > Novi-Sad, in present Yugoslavia). This plant
            > included
            > scotching and other primary processing of the hemp.
            > Following the establishment of this factory others
            > (spinning, weaving, ropewalks, etc.) sprang up like
            > mushrooms."
            >
            > This chapter goes on for 4 more paragraphs but
            > concerns the modernized factory processes.
            >
            >
            >
            > -Kataryna
            >
            >


            CONTACT ME FOR CUST0M NECKLACES! For SCA, New Age, and lovers of amber and semiprecious stones...silver only, no gold. Nice prices, honest!

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          • Tracy Kremer
            Some personal names I am considering for my new persona, but which I need to research further; I m posting them for any input you might care to give me.
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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              Some personal names I am considering for my new
              persona, but which I need to research further; I'm
              posting them for any input you might care to give me.

              Czeslawa - feminization of Czeslaw (the "l" being that
              other letter entirely in Polish, the crooked t).
              Polish in origin. I like the sound, but "honor and
              glory" is an unlikely choice for a girl-child.

              Malina - "raspberry" in polish

              Nadzieja - Polish form of Nadezhda, a Russian name
              meaning hope. I like this one, but it may not be
              within period.

              Walentyna - feminization of the Polish name Walenty,
              meaning healthy, strong. Something they might have
              given to a healthy female child. Easy to say, but not
              common (where I am) in the SCA. This may be a good
              choice for me.

              I'm also considering "Sopianka".

              Thanks for your time and attention,
              Eluned

              CONTACT ME FOR CUST0M NECKLACES! For SCA, New Age, and lovers of amber and semiprecious stones...silver only, no gold. Nice prices, honest!

              COMING SOON; ElunedsEmporium.com !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!











              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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            • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
              ... Good luck Eluned! Which are you leaning towards now? -- Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski Middle Kingdom, Pentamere, Shire of Talonval Servant of His Grace Sir
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                On 12/6/06, Tracy Kremer <eluned_p@...> wrote:
                >
                > Some personal names I am considering for my new
                > persona, but which I need to research further; I'm
                > posting them for any input you might care to give me.
                >
                > Czeslawa - feminization of Czeslaw (the "l" being that
                > other letter entirely in Polish, the crooked t).
                > Polish in origin. I like the sound, but "honor and
                > glory" is an unlikely choice for a girl-child.
                >
                > Malina - "raspberry" in polish
                >
                > Nadzieja - Polish form of Nadezhda, a Russian name
                > meaning hope. I like this one, but it may not be
                > within period.
                >
                > Walentyna - feminization of the Polish name Walenty,
                > meaning healthy, strong. Something they might have
                > given to a healthy female child. Easy to say, but not
                > common (where I am) in the SCA. This may be a good
                > choice for me.
                >
                > I'm also considering "Sopianka".
                >
                > Thanks for your time and attention,
                > Eluned
                >
                > CONTACT ME FOR CUST0M NECKLACES! For SCA, New Age, and lovers of amber and
                > semiprecious stones...silver only, no gold. Nice prices, honest!
                >
                > COMING SOON; ElunedsEmporium.com !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                >
                > __________________________________________________________
                > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it
                > now.
                >
                >

                Good luck Eluned!

                Which are you leaning towards now?

                --
                Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                Middle Kingdom, Pentamere, Shire of Talonval
                Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
                SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org
                We have enough youth - how about a fountain of smart?


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tracy Kremer
                ... Walentyna, maybe; Malina and Nadzieja also appeal. I hate to narrow my choices before I know if I can have any one of these. I also need to check on the
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                  > Good luck Eluned!
                  >
                  > Which are you leaning towards now?
                  >
                  > --
                  > Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski


                  Walentyna, maybe; Malina and Nadzieja also appeal. I
                  hate to narrow my choices before I know if I can have
                  any one of these. I also need to check on the
                  pronunciatioins.

                  --- Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...>
                  wrote:

                  > On 12/6/06, Tracy Kremer <eluned_p@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Some personal names I am considering for my new
                  > > persona, but which I need to research further; I'm
                  > > posting them for any input you might care to give
                  > me.
                  > >
                  > > Czeslawa - feminization of Czeslaw (the "l" being
                  > that
                  > > other letter entirely in Polish, the crooked t).
                  > > Polish in origin. I like the sound, but "honor and
                  > > glory" is an unlikely choice for a girl-child.
                  > >
                  > > Malina - "raspberry" in polish
                  > >
                  > > Nadzieja - Polish form of Nadezhda, a Russian name
                  > > meaning hope. I like this one, but it may not be
                  > > within period.
                  > >
                  > > Walentyna - feminization of the Polish name
                  > Walenty,
                  > > meaning healthy, strong. Something they might have
                  > > given to a healthy female child. Easy to say, but
                  > not
                  > > common (where I am) in the SCA. This may be a good
                  > > choice for me.
                  > >
                  > > I'm also considering "Sopianka".
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for your time and attention,
                  > > Eluned
                  > >
                  > > CONTACT ME FOR CUST0M NECKLACES! For SCA, New Age,
                  > and lovers of amber and
                  > > semiprecious stones...silver only, no gold. Nice
                  > prices, honest!
                  > >
                  > > COMING SOON; ElunedsEmporium.com !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  __________________________________________________________
                  > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at
                  > www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it
                  > > now.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > Good luck Eluned!
                  >
                  > Which are you leaning towards now?
                  >
                  > --
                  > Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                  > Middle Kingdom, Pentamere, Shire of Talonval
                  > Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master
                  > Mordok Rostovskogo
                  > SCA Polish Culture Resource:
                  > http://www.plcommonwealth.org
                  > We have enough youth - how about a fountain of
                  > smart?
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >


                  CONTACT ME FOR CUST0M NECKLACES! For SCA, New Age, and lovers of amber and semiprecious stones...silver only, no gold. Nice prices, honest!

                  COMING SOON; ElunedsEmporium.com !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!











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                • Tracy Kremer
                  Personally, I prefer blackberries. You get fruit, and the damage are scratches that you can bandage; nettles _sting_, leaving an itchy rash, and sometimes
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                    Personally, I prefer blackberries. You get fruit, and
                    the damage are scratches that you can bandage; nettles
                    _sting_, leaving an itchy rash, and sometimes they
                    catch you by surprise. If you meet a stray branch of
                    bramble, you can just stop moving, and usually back it
                    off of you, and neosporin stops the discomfort.

                    Eluned

                    --- Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:

                    > >From various references, one suspects that nettle
                    > may have been
                    > >primarily gathered from the wild rather than
                    > cultivated.
                    >
                    > Laughing. Yes, from my experience, nettles do not
                    > need to be
                    > cultivated. They do just fine on their own. I have
                    > several clumps of
                    > them if anyone wants some.
                    > Ilaria
                    > At least they aren't as bad as the blackberries.
                    >
                    >


                    CONTACT ME FOR CUST0M NECKLACES! For SCA, New Age, and lovers of amber and semiprecious stones...silver only, no gold. Nice prices, honest!

                    COMING SOON; ElunedsEmporium.com !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!











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                  • Lynda Fjellman
                    Not around here. Stray branches come in howling packs and I get infections from the scratches. Apparently many folks do. The fruit is good though. Backing
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 7, 2006
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                      Not around here. Stray branches come in howling packs and I get
                      infections from the scratches. Apparently many folks do. The fruit is
                      good though. Backing away just leaves bigger scratches and sometimes
                      the thorns behind.
                      Do you have "Himalaya" blackberries? If not, you just do *not* know
                      what you are missing in the way of nuisance blackberries.

                      You can eat nettles, they make a good cooked green. (just the newer
                      tops, cook like spinach) You do have to wear gloves to pick them
                      though.
                      Ilaria


                      Personally, I prefer blackberries. You get fruit, and
                      the damage are scratches that you can bandage; nettles
                      _sting_, leaving an itchy rash, and sometimes they
                      catch you by surprise. If you meet a stray branch of
                      bramble, you can just stop moving, and usually back it
                      off of you, and neosporin stops the discomfort.

                      Eluned

                      --- Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:

                      > >From various references, one suspects that nettle
                      > may have been
                      > >primarily gathered from the wild rather than
                      > cultivated.
                      >
                      > Laughing. Yes, from my experience, nettles do not
                      > need to be
                      > cultivated. They do just fine on their own. I have
                      > several clumps of
                      > them if anyone wants some.
                      > Ilaria
                      > At least they aren't as bad as the blackberries.
                      >
                      >


                      CONTACT ME FOR CUST0M NECKLACES! For SCA, New Age, and
                      lovers of amber and semiprecious stones...silver only, no gold. Nice
                      prices, honest!

                      COMING SOON; ElunedsEmporium.com !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!











                      ________________________________________________________________________
                      ____________
                      Cheap talk?
                      Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
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                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Ilijana Krakowska
                      Yes, I know it is not that time of year, but there was a lengthy discussion about hot weather wear a year or two ago, and people just mught suffer from chafing
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 14, 2006
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                        Yes, I know it is not that time of year, but there was a lengthy discussion about hot weather wear a year or two ago, and people just mught suffer from chafing if they do any dancing at anytime of year. I just want to share that I found a product at a sports-shoe store called Sport Shield made to prevent chafing. It rolls on like a deodorant, and really does work on the inner thighs, when we get back to that steamy weather and those long linen tunics.

                        I do not sell this product. I do not have any interest in this product other than sharing its efficacy.


                        Ilijana Krakowska
                        Per pale argent and gules, two cats sejant addorsed counterchanged.

                        ---------------------------------
                        Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • milica_od_tuzla
                        I appreciate this very much. I live in the Kingdom of Trimaris were it is hot 99% of the time. I m going to try this out. Thank you very much. ... discussion
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 15, 2006
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                          I appreciate this very much. I live in the Kingdom of Trimaris were
                          it is hot 99% of the time. I'm going to try this out. Thank you very
                          much.


                          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Ilijana Krakowska <ilijanakrakowska@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes, I know it is not that time of year, but there was a lengthy
                          discussion about hot weather wear a year or two ago, and people just
                          mught suffer from chafing if they do any dancing at anytime of year.
                          I just want to share that I found a product at a sports-shoe store
                          called Sport Shield made to prevent chafing. It rolls on like a
                          deodorant, and really does work on the inner thighs, when we get back
                          to that steamy weather and those long linen tunics.
                          >
                          > I do not sell this product. I do not have any interest in this
                          product other than sharing its efficacy.
                          >
                          >
                          > Ilijana Krakowska
                          > Per pale argent and gules, two cats sejant addorsed counterchanged.
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Master Nikulai Ivanovich, OP
                          From left field... When hemming a shuba, should the hem be even all the way across so when work it hangs unevenly, or should it be hemmed evenly when worn?
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 15, 2006
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                            From left field...

                            When hemming a shuba, should the hem be even all the way across so when
                            work it hangs unevenly, or should it be hemmed evenly when worn?

                            Thanks!
                            - N

                            --
                            Master Nikulai Ivanovich, OP
                            Or, on a bend cotised sable, three fox masks or palewise.
                          • L.M. Kies
                            ... You might want to take a good hard look at the price and the active ingredients of this Sport Shield. I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be just
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 15, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              >------- Original Message -------
                              > I just want to share that I found a product at a sports-shoe store called Sport Shield made to prevent chafing. It rolls on like a deodorant, and really does work on the inner thighs, when we get back to that steamy weather and those long linen tunics.
                              >

                              You might want to take a good hard look at the price and the active ingredients of this Sport Shield. I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be just anti-perspirant under a different name, and I wouldn't want anyone to pay more for it than it's worth.

                              Sofya


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Janin Wise
                              So roll-on anti-perspirant would work to stop inner thigh chafing? Because if it s true, and cheaper, it s still a great tip (: --Cigan ... From: L.M. Kies
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 15, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                So roll-on anti-perspirant would work to stop inner thigh chafing? Because if it's true, and cheaper, it's still a great tip (:

                                --Cigan

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: L.M. Kies <lkies@...>
                                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:39:18 PM
                                Subject: RE: [sig] Chafing under your garb















                                >------- Original Message -------

                                > I just want to share that I found a product at a sports-shoe store called Sport Shield made to prevent chafing. It rolls on like a deodorant, and really does work on the inner thighs, when we get back to that steamy weather and those long linen tunics.

                                >



                                You might want to take a good hard look at the price and the active ingredients of this Sport Shield. I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be just anti-perspirant under a different name, and I wouldn't want anyone to pay more for it than it's worth.



                                Sofya



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                              • L.M. Kies
                                Master Nikulai, poklon ot Sofya. ... I would say it should be hemmed so it hangs evenly when worn - see below.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 15, 2006
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                                  Master Nikulai, poklon ot Sofya.


                                  >------- Original Message -------
                                  >When hemming a shuba, should the hem be even all the way across so when
                                  >work it hangs unevenly, or should it be hemmed evenly when worn?
                                  >

                                  I would say it should be hemmed so it hangs evenly when worn - see below.

                                  http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/soloveckoevos30.jpg
                                  http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/clothingart.html


                                  K tvoim uslugam,

                                  Sofya

                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                  Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                  http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                  "Si no necare, sana."
                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • magdalenag56
                                  I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be just anti-perspirant under a different name, and I wouldn t want anyone to pay more for it than it s worth. ...
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 16, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be just anti-perspirant
                                    under a different name, and I wouldn't want anyone to pay more for it
                                    than it's worth.
                                    >
                                    > Sofya

                                    I've heard about people using their anti-perspirant for chafing at
                                    Pennsic. So do check that out.

                                    Just my dwa zlota
                                    Magdalena Gdanska
                                  • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
                                    I guess I m old fashioned or something but I either wear bloomers (not that I have documentation for Rus women wearing them) while at pennsic or I wear biker
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 16, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I guess I'm old fashioned or something but I either wear bloomers (not that
                                      I have documentation for Rus women wearing them) while at pennsic or I wear
                                      biker shorts to help with that. Powders or creams tend to make me break out
                                      worse...though there was an herbalist at Pennsic that was selling chaffing
                                      powder to help with that, though I don't know the ingredients.

                                      Posadnitsa Ianuk


                                      On 12/16/06, magdalenag56 <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be just anti-perspirant
                                      > under a different name, and I wouldn't want anyone to pay more for it
                                      > than it's worth.
                                      > >
                                      > > Sofya
                                      >
                                      > I've heard about people using their anti-perspirant for chafing at
                                      > Pennsic. So do check that out.
                                      >
                                      > Just my dwa zlota
                                      > Magdalena Gdanska
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • aleannain@insightbb.com
                                      I use simple baby powder and it seems to help me...whether I be fighting or in garb...it helps with me not chafing. Anushka ... From: Jennifer Nelson Kemp
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 16, 2006
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                                        I use simple baby powder and it seems to help me...whether I be fighting or in garb...it helps with me not chafing.

                                        Anushka

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...>
                                        Date: Saturday, December 16, 2006 11:02
                                        Subject: Re: [sig] Re: Chafing under your garb
                                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com

                                        > I guess I'm old fashioned or something but I either wear
                                        > bloomers (not that
                                        > I have documentation for Rus women wearing them) while at
                                        > pennsic or I wear
                                        > biker shorts to help with that. Powders or creams tend to
                                        > make me break out
                                        > worse...though there was an herbalist at Pennsic that was
                                        > selling chaffing
                                        > powder to help with that, though I don't know the ingredients.
                                        >
                                        > Posadnitsa Ianuk
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 12/16/06, magdalenag56 <magdalenag56@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be just
                                        > anti-perspirant
                                        > > under a different name, and I wouldn't want anyone to pay more
                                        > for it
                                        > > than it's worth.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Sofya
                                        > >
                                        > > I've heard about people using their anti-perspirant for
                                        > chafing at
                                        > > Pennsic. So do check that out.
                                        > >
                                        > > Just my dwa zlota
                                        > > Magdalena Gdanska
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ilijana Krakowska
                                        According to the label, the ingredients are Dimethicone, Aloe Vera Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E) I think the dimethicone (which I seem to recall is an
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 17, 2006
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                                          According to the label, the ingredients are "Dimethicone, Aloe Vera Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E)"
                                          I think the dimethicone (which I seem to recall is an ingredient in the OTC anti-gas/stomach acid products) is probably the anti-friction agent with the Vitamin E and the Aloe Vera in there to help reduce the irritation.

                                          As far as anti-perspriants go, I have used them to prevent the sweat from rolling down my thighs, but the brand I use didn't do anthing to prevent chafing as far as I could tell.

                                          "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

                                          >------- Original Message -------
                                          > I just want to share that I found a product at a sports-shoe store called Sport Shield made to prevent chafing. [snip]

                                          [snip] I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be just anti-perspirant under a different name, and I wouldn't want anyone to pay more for it than it's worth.

                                          Sofya




                                          Ilijana Krakowska
                                          Per pale argent and gules, two cats sejant addorsed counterchanged.
                                          __________________________________________________
                                          Do You Yahoo!?
                                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                          http://mail.yahoo.com

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • L.M. Kies
                                          ... I think the dimethicone (which I seem to recall is an ingredient in the OTC anti-gas/stomach acid products) is probably the anti-friction agent with the
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 17, 2006
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                                            >------- Original Message -------
                                            >
                                            >According to the label, the ingredients are "Dimethicone, Aloe Vera Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E)"
                                            I think the dimethicone (which I seem to recall is an ingredient in the OTC anti-gas/stomach acid products) is probably the anti-friction agent with the Vitamin E and the Aloe Vera in there to help reduce the irritation.
                                            >
                                            As far as anti-perspriants go, I have used them to prevent the sweat from rolling down my thighs, but the brand I use didn't do anthing to prevent chafing as far as I could tell.
                                            >

                                            I'm sure it depends on the kind of anti-perspirant - mine would work quite nice for chafing - but then it's "inactive ingredients" include talc, dimethicone, and hydrogenated castor oil, among others. (Aluminum zirconium trichlorohydrex etc. is the active "anti-perspirant" ingredient.) I've used some roll-ons in the past that went on sticky and seemed to stay sticky - bad for chaffing.

                                            Since most anti-perspirants are not sealed in the store, put a little on your fingers and see how "slippery" it feels, or look for the "slippery" ingredients.

                                            Oh, and anti-gas products contain simethicone, not dimethicone. Hmm... dimethicone is an alternative treatment for head lice. Interesting. I guess it helps comb out the nits. ;)

                                            Sofya



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Rick Orli
                                            One of the 17th C. tailors who speaks to us through his writing - don t remember who right off- said that the worst sort of fault in a garmet that a tailor
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 20, 2006
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                                              One of the 17th C. tailors who speaks to us through his writing -
                                              don't remember who right off- said that the worst sort of fault in a
                                              garmet that a tailor could commit is if the hem in the front is
                                              longer than the hem in the back. -Rick
                                              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Master Nikulai, poklon ot Sofya.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >------- Original Message -------
                                              > >When hemming a shuba, should the hem be even all the way across
                                              so when
                                              > >work it hangs unevenly, or should it be hemmed evenly when worn?
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > I would say it should be hemmed so it hangs evenly when worn - see
                                              below.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/soloveckoevos3
                                              0.jpg
                                              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/clothingart.html
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > K tvoim uslugam,
                                              >
                                              > Sofya
                                              >
                                              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              -
                                              > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                              > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                              > "Si no necare, sana."
                                              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              -
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • Master Nikulai Ivanovich, OP
                                              Thanks! ... -- Master Nikulai Ivanovich, OP Or, on a bend cotised sable, three fox masks or palewise.
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                                Thanks!

                                                On Wed, December 20, 2006 5:56 pm, Rick Orli wrote:
                                                > One of the 17th C. tailors who speaks to us through his writing -
                                                > don't remember who right off- said that the worst sort of fault in a
                                                > garmet that a tailor could commit is if the hem in the front is
                                                > longer than the hem in the back. -Rick
                                                > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
                                                >>
                                                >> Master Nikulai, poklon ot Sofya.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> >------- Original Message -------
                                                >> >When hemming a shuba, should the hem be even all the way across
                                                > so when
                                                >> >work it hangs unevenly, or should it be hemmed evenly when worn?
                                                >> >
                                                >>
                                                >> I would say it should be hemmed so it hangs evenly when worn - see
                                                > below.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/soloveckoevos3
                                                > 0.jpg
                                                >> http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/clothingart.html
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> K tvoim uslugam,
                                                >>
                                                >> Sofya
                                                >>
                                                >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > -
                                                >> Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                                >> Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                                >> http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                                >> "Si no necare, sana."
                                                >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > -
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >


                                                --
                                                Master Nikulai Ivanovich, OP
                                                Or, on a bend cotised sable, three fox masks or palewise.
                                              • Master Nikulai Ivanovich, OP
                                                Thanks! ... -- Master Nikulai Ivanovich, OP Or, on a bend cotised sable, three fox masks or palewise.
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                                  Thanks!

                                                  On Fri, December 15, 2006 9:26 pm, L.M. Kies wrote:
                                                  > Master Nikulai, poklon ot Sofya.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >>------- Original Message -------
                                                  >>When hemming a shuba, should the hem be even all the way across so when
                                                  >>work it hangs unevenly, or should it be hemmed evenly when worn?
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  > I would say it should be hemmed so it hangs evenly when worn - see below.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PeriodImages/soloveckoevos30.jpg
                                                  > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/clothingart.html
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > K tvoim uslugam,
                                                  >
                                                  > Sofya
                                                  >
                                                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                                                  > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                                  > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                                  > "Si no necare, sana."
                                                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  --
                                                  Master Nikulai Ivanovich, OP
                                                  Or, on a bend cotised sable, three fox masks or palewise.
                                                • Marina Anastasia Ozeroski
                                                  Can anyone direct me to a suitable supplier for period (or period-looking foorwear) for a late period Ukrainian? Thanks Marina
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                                    Can anyone direct me to a suitable supplier for period (or
                                                    period-looking foorwear) for a late period Ukrainian?

                                                    Thanks
                                                    Marina
                                                  • Stephanie Ross
                                                    You could try Vika at Ebay - item #190065182643. I bet if you emailed her she might be able to make them according to your specifications if what she s selling
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Dec 26, 2006
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                                                      You could try Vika at Ebay - item #190065182643. I bet if you emailed her
                                                      she might be able to make them according to your specifications if what
                                                      she's selling isn't exactly what you're looking for. She has all her wares
                                                      made in Ukraine (which is where she is from and her mom still lives there
                                                      and looks for stuff for her to sell here). She is also rather knowledgeable
                                                      about peasant costume and is very nice to talk with.


                                                      Nadya
                                                      Et si omnes, ego non.
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