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Re: [sig] Re: Dushegreya

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  • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
    Unfortunately, the apron-dresses (or hangerocks) that we have found have been in pieces..nothing with full length. The stone carvings do show some with full
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 19, 2006
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      Unfortunately, the apron-dresses (or hangerocks) that we have found have
      been in pieces..nothing with full length. The stone carvings do show some
      with full length, others higher. So, the hemline did fluctuate, at least in
      pictoral evidence. If the statements that the sarafan is from 15-17th
      centuries (I'm not sure if I interpreted everyones chatter about the dates),
      then that is only about 500-700 years. Unlike now early fashion didn't
      change every 10 years, its on the outside but concievable that at least the
      silouette of the sarafan could have been drawn from the Vikings especially
      in the nothern areas of Russia where the Viking influence was the very
      common but I'm betting the chinese infulence is a better bet at least for
      the timeline.


      Posadnitsa Ianuk

      On 10/19/06, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I read somewhere that the sarafan was popular only
      > > in northern Russia until
      > > after our period when it became widespread enough to
      > > become a main part of
      > > Russian "folk costume". That makes sense to me if
      > > one considers the sarafan
      > > to have evolved from the Viking apron-dress.
      >
      > See, and i was under the impression that the sarafan
      > is unrelated to the viking apron dress. I understood
      > that the sarafan developed as a descendant of slavic
      > overdresses that eventually lost their sleeves and
      > became the 'jumper' style. There's really almost a
      > thousand years between the heyday of the viking
      > version and the sarafan -- that's a lot of fashion to
      > try and draw a straight line through.
      >
      > Plus a viking dress is not full length, whereas the
      > sarafan is ankle-length. I was taught that until
      > recently, it was MEN's hemlines that fluctuated, not
      > women's. ;)
      >
      > I suspect it's more a case of parallel evolution than
      > direct descent.
      > --Sfandra
      >
      >
      > ******************
      > Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
      > Royal Clothier to TRM Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
      > Kingdom of the East
      > ******************
      > Never 'pearl' your butt.
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tim Nalley
      Good points, Nadya! I think that we will eventually find an authoritative answer to the dushegreya debate at some point when materials of that nature begin
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 20, 2006
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        Good points, Nadya! I think that we will
        eventually find an authoritative answer to the
        dushegreya debate at some point when materials of that
        nature begin surfacing. And I copletely agree,
        initially there were no "Tatars" in Northern Russia>
        However, beginning in the 14th century the Kostroma
        tatars became Moscovite clients, though autonimous.
        There were several other groups operating as clients
        of both the Poles and the Novgorodians, in turn and as
        advantages lay in what is now Bylorussia.
        Also, an estimated 17% of Russian nobles on the
        rolls at the beginning of the 15th C were Tatars or at
        least had Tatar names, and by the 16th C an estimated
        60-70% of the Moscovite nobility had Tatar ancestery.
        I have a very interesting study on this with detailed
        stats in my research binders at home.
        Also by this period there are quite a few Tatar
        words in the Russian lexicon, garments in the wardrobe
        and "traditions" that are being assimilated into
        Russian culture. Mating, dating, relating. The usual
        haphazard human interaction scenerio. Influences are
        heaviest along the Wild Field borders and Central
        Volga but its a mistake to underestimate the value of
        the classic "good idea" imitation.
        MOST IMPORTANTLY and quite literally, ANYONE on
        this list can make a dushegreya this very afternoon
        using an old caftan or tunic, a pair of scissors and a
        needle/thread. Add this to the documented re-cutting
        of garments multiple times to the level of bits and
        pieces in the Domostroi. That's actually the basis of
        my new Russian costuming class currently in
        development, "The Complete Russian in One Hour for NO
        MONEY". I'll be teaching it at Pennsic this year.
        'dok

        --- Stephanie Ross <hlaislinn@...> wrote:

        > Sofya wrote:
        > ...Rabinovich .... says of the dushegreya merely,
        > "The
        > > sarafan and yubka were sometimes supplemented by
        > the
        > > dushegreya - a short (in most cases without
        > sleeves)
        > > women's jacket, open down the front, gathered in
        > > back with a multitude of gathers,
        > > embracing the body in a sumptuous ring
        > > (Giliarovskaya, 1945, p. 43)." That's it.
        > > So the evidence must be pretty scant.
        >
        > Then Mordak wrote:
        > <The only corrobarating evidence I have found was
        > ancillary
        > in nature and mostly confined to Central asia and
        > China where it has been common since the Wan
        > Dynasty.
        > I think I still have an article speculating that it
        > came with the Ta'tar as it was most widespread in
        > those areas but that is the purest speculation until
        > more information comes to light. >
        >
        > I read somewhere that the sarafan was popular only
        > in northern Russia until
        > after our period when it became widespread enough to
        > become a main part of
        > Russian "folk costume". That makes sense to me if
        > one considers the sarafan
        > to have evolved from the Viking apron-dress.
        > However, I thought the Tatars
        > didn't make it up into Moscow and Novgorod which is
        > why Moscow became the
        > capitol over Kiev. I can't get to my research binder
        > at the moment because
        > it's in the bedroom and hubby is sleeping, or I'd
        > find out exactly where
        > those ideas came from. My point is with those two
        > bits of information it
        > seems unlikely that the dushegreya would have become
        > paired with the
        > sarafan. The dushegreya has me stumped because I
        > can't find a corresponding
        > article of clothing in another culture, although
        > China appears the most
        > likely place. The reason I feel it is Imperial
        > (Baroque, Colonial,
        > whatever, 1700's) is because paintings from that
        > timeperiod show women
        > wearing them over sarafans. Korneyev painted the
        > dushegreya on peasants in
        > 1802. Georgi drew a woman from the Kaluga region
        > wearing one in the early
        > 1770's. Le Prince drew a woman in one in 1760. It's
        > weird though, because
        > when Geissler painted them in the 1790's, he wasn't
        > consistant. In some
        > paintings it looks like a shortened sarafan over a
        > floral skirt. In photos
        > from around 1900, it looks like it could be the same
        > as I just mentioned,
        > or a peplum attached to the sarafan - the sorochka,
        > skirt and dushegreya
        > are all different brocades. Then drawings done in
        > 1916 show it as a short
        > jacket that laps right over left from Moscow, and in
        > Olonetsk it looks like
        > a peplum attached to a sarafan of the same material!
        > (I am looking through
        > a book called _Folk Costumes of the People of Russia
        > in Graphic Arts of the
        > 18th-20th Centuries_ in case anyone is interested).
        > Could it have been just
        > a very short sarafan in some regions worn over a
        > sorochka and skirt? And a
        > sarafan with a peplum folded over, similar to the
        > Celtic peplos, in another
        > region? With the way it is gathered across the back,
        > it seems to me to be
        > related to the sarafan somehow, since modern
        > sarafans are made with gathers
        > across the back. It's such an odd little garment.
        > Could it be related to
        > the Romanian and Hungarian vest? Didn't those come
        > from the Tatars? Perhaps
        > it was just a short-lived clothing fad from after
        > our period, which is why
        > Sofya found little mention of it and it's not worth
        > fretting over. I wish
        > we had women who lived in Russia on this list. Then
        > we could get them to
        > research and ask questions of the people who work in
        > the museums there.
        > Please keep translating stuff for us Sofya! You are
        > our only hope to get
        > these perplexing costuming questions answered!
        > (Thanks for all you have
        > done so far, BTW!! Your work is invaluable).
        >
        > ~Nadya~
        >
        >


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      • Lynda Fjellman
        Not to mention the fact that there are sleeveless over-dresses out there in Europe in 1500? Is it possible that they might have had some influence some were
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 20, 2006
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          Not to mention the fact that there are sleeveless over-dresses "out
          there" in Europe in 1500?
          Is it possible that they might have had some influence some were along
          the line?
          Ilaria


          See, and i was under the impression that the sarafan
          is unrelated to the viking apron dress. I understood
          that the sarafan developed as a descendant of slavic
          overdresses that eventually lost their sleeves and
          became the 'jumper' style. There's really almost a
          thousand years between the heyday of the viking
          version and the sarafan -- that's a lot of fashion to
          try and draw a straight line through.
        • Tim Nalley
          Closer relation to the Italian Renn. Griona overdress, which would have been maybe introduced into 15th C Russia when so many Italian craftsmen were hired by
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 20, 2006
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            Closer relation to the Italian Renn. Griona overdress,
            which would have been maybe introduced into 15th C
            Russia when so many Italian craftsmen were hired by
            Sophia Palogius and Ivan the Great?

            --- Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:

            > Not to mention the fact that there are sleeveless
            > over-dresses "out
            > there" in Europe in 1500?
            > Is it possible that they might have had some
            > influence some were along
            > the line?
            > Ilaria
            >
            >
            > See, and i was under the impression that the sarafan
            > is unrelated to the viking apron dress. I
            > understood
            > that the sarafan developed as a descendant of slavic
            > overdresses that eventually lost their sleeves and
            > became the 'jumper' style. There's really almost a
            > thousand years between the heyday of the viking
            > version and the sarafan -- that's a lot of fashion
            > to
            > try and draw a straight line through.
            >
            >


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