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Re: Re: [sig] Byzantine and Rus

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  • Colum mac Fheradaigh
    Wow... many thanks. At least now I have something to work off. Makes my life fairly easier. Thanks again to everyone that has helped from this list Dimitrii
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 14, 2006
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      Wow... many thanks.

      At least now I have something to work off. Makes my life fairly easier.
      Thanks again to everyone that has helped from this list
      Dimitrii

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: L.M. Kies
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:33 PM
      Subject: RE : Re: [sig] Byzantine and Rus


      Poklon ot Sofya.

      >Any chance of getting a quick timeline rundown?
      >

      Why, of course.  The following is skewed towards men's garb, since that seems to be your area.  :)

      Early pagan Rus - Russian-style T-tunic and narrow trousers similar to Carolingian and Viking styles, but with better access to furs and Eastern finery. 

      Kievan Rus - same as the above but with fancier materials and with addition of some ceremonial court costume (not everyday clothing) adapted from Byzantium, and similar to Western European court costume of the time.  Tribal Slavic styles still identifiable (Krivichi vs. Vyatichi, etc.).  The extremely long-sleeved overcoat, usually portrayed worn over the shoulders like a cloak, appears in illustrations from this time.  (See the portrait of the family of Yaroslav the Wise.)

      Appanage Rus - same as the above, but with strong Turko-Mongol influence.  Southern Rus comes under Polish-Lithuanian rule/influence.  Seems to be when the classic Russian "caftan" makes it appearance.  (Although perhaps not called a "kaftan" yet, and really only a slight modification of the Viking-esque garments worn earlier.)  A period of transition to full-blown Muscovite styles.

      Muscovite Rus - clothing of common people and the upper classes at home same as the above.  When going out in public, upper classes and nobility wear a bewildering variety of kaftans, jackets, and coats - narrow sleeves, wide sleeves, long sleeves, super-long sleeves with slits, no sleeves, fitted/belted, loose, un-lined, lined, fur-lined, standing collars, turned-down collars, etc. etc.   The "5-layer rule" is applied to this period, at least for the nobility.

      And then came Peter the Great... 

      Does that help?

      Sofya

      ----------------------------------------------
      Lisa M. Kies, MD
      Mason City, IA
      Lady Sofya la Rus
      Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      "Si no necare, sana."
      ----------------------------------------------

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • quokkaqueen
      Oooh, I head you mention Finnish! What Finnish influences? (I know there are funky 10-11th c. finds around Staraja Ladoga where the jewellery seems to be
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 15, 2006
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        Oooh, I head you mention Finnish! What Finnish influences? (I know
        there are funky 10-11th c. finds around Staraja Ladoga where the
        jewellery seems to be mixed-and-matched from the surrounding cultures...)
        Are there any other instances of Finnish-ness being integrated into
        the culture of the Slavic neighbours?

        Enquiring (and Finland-obsessed) minds want to know! =)
        ~Asfridhr

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
        <<snip>>
        > > While I reject the Slavo-centrist agenda behind some
        > > of these Soviet-era writings, I
        > > have noticed that there is a tremendous
        > > amount of Finnish, Viking, Mongol/Turkic,
        > > Western European, etc. influence on Rus
        > > clothing.
        <<snip>>
        > > Sofya
      • Sfandra
        ... [Joke Mode On] In the Beginning there was Rus . And It Was Good. And all the other nations of the world were jealous of all the cool things the Rus had,
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 16, 2006
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          > Any chance of getting a quick timeline rundown?
          >

          [Joke Mode On]

          In the Beginning there was Rus'. And It Was Good.
          And all the other nations of the world were jealous of
          all the cool things the Rus had, like rampant literacy
          and spiffy clothing, so they all copied the Rus (Those
          Byzantines were particularly sneaky). But then they
          all had better propaganda machines too, so in later
          centuries, Innocent Reenactors would be unaware of the
          Coolness of Rus' (perhaps the funky alphabet might
          have had some of the blame), until the Enlightened
          Few, Known as the Slavic Interest Group,
          worked Very Very Hard to make everyone aware again of
          the Coolness of Rus'.

          :D :D :D :D

          --Sfandra
          --Don't Mind Me, I'm pre-Coffee this morning still...


          ******************
          Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
          Royal Clothier to TRH Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
          Kingdom of the East
          ******************
          Never 'pearl' your butt.

          __________________________________________________
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        • Dimitrii Borodinskii
          hmm.... just as I had expected. (Damn sneaky Byzantines) ... Dimitrii ... From: Sfandra To: sig@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 10:30 PM
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 16, 2006
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            hmm.... just as I had expected.
            (Damn sneaky Byzantines)

            :)
            Dimitrii

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Sfandra
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 10:30 PM
            Subject: Re: [sig] Byzantine and Rus was Re: Russian armor



            > Any chance of getting a quick timeline rundown?
            >

            [Joke Mode On]

            In the Beginning there was Rus'. And It Was Good.
            And all the other nations of the world were jealous of
            all the cool things the Rus had, like rampant literacy
            and spiffy clothing, so they all copied the Rus (Those
            Byzantines were particularly sneaky). But then they
            all had better propaganda machines too, so in later
            centuries, Innocent Reenactors would be unaware of the
            Coolness of Rus' (perhaps the funky alphabet might
            have had some of the blame), until the Enlightened
            Few, Known as the Slavic Interest Group,
            worked Very Very Hard to make everyone aware again of
            the Coolness of Rus'.

            :D :D :D :D

            --Sfandra
            --Don't Mind Me, I'm pre-Coffee this morning still...

            ******************
            Pomestnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
            Royal Clothier to TRH Lucan and Yana Von Drachenklaue
            Kingdom of the East
            ******************
            Never 'pearl' your butt.

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stephanie Ross
            Sofya wrote: Muscovite Rus - clothing of common people and the upper classes at home same as the above. When going out in public, upper classes and nobility
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 17, 2006
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              Sofya wrote:

              Muscovite Rus - clothing of common people and the upper classes at home
              same as the above. When going out in public, upper classes and nobility
              wear a bewildering variety of kaftans, jackets, and coats - narrow sleeves,
              wide sleeves, long sleeves, super-long sleeves with slits, no sleeves,
              fitted/belted, loose, un-lined, lined, fur-lined, standing collars,
              turned-down collars, etc. etc. The "5-layer rule" is applied to this
              period, at least for the nobility.

              And then came Peter the Great...



              My question is, is this when the kercetka or dugredeshka (?) came into
              being? I am talking about the short jacket that is worn over the sarafan.
              That garment seems almost too late for us; my brain wants to date it to
              Imperial Russia, but my brain has been known to have a short-circuit
              sometimes.


              ~Nadya~
            • Tim Nalley
              I was under the impression that the extant artifacts were from the Imperial period, as are most of the ethnic artifacts. Its much older just east of Moscovy
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 18, 2006
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                I was under the impression that the extant artifacts
                were from the Imperial period, as are most of the
                ethnic artifacts. Its much older just east of Moscovy
                though I have failed to find the linkage necessary, to
                date!
                'dok

                --- Stephanie Ross <hlaislinn@...> wrote:

                > Sofya wrote:
                >
                > Muscovite Rus - clothing of common people and the
                > upper classes at home
                > same as the above. When going out in public, upper
                > classes and nobility
                > wear a bewildering variety of kaftans, jackets, and
                > coats - narrow sleeves,
                > wide sleeves, long sleeves, super-long sleeves with
                > slits, no sleeves,
                > fitted/belted, loose, un-lined, lined, fur-lined,
                > standing collars,
                > turned-down collars, etc. etc. The "5-layer rule"
                > is applied to this
                > period, at least for the nobility.
                >
                > And then came Peter the Great...
                >
                >
                >
                > My question is, is this when the kercetka or
                > dugredeshka (?) came into
                > being? I am talking about the short jacket that is
                > worn over the sarafan.
                > That garment seems almost too late for us; my brain
                > wants to date it to
                > Imperial Russia, but my brain has been known to have
                > a short-circuit
                > sometimes.
                >
                >
                > ~Nadya~
                >
                >
                >


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