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Drawings, Ospery and period, as sources....

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  • Tim Nalley
    Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions are illustrative at best in the Ospery s and function only in a visualization and entertainment capacity! Even
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
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      Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
      are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
      only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
      Even period drawings and paintings are considered
      only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
      an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
      drawing from a dig.
      In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
      they are completely subject to artistic licence at
      best and the demands of the original patron for a more
      flattering portrayal at worse.
      'dok

      --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

      > The plates represent, or should represent, the
      > interpertation of a
      > trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject
      > and privy to lots
      > of primary materials the rest of us can't access;
      > their guess is
      > probabally better than most guesses. Also, the
      > author is responsible
      > for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all
      > their faults, they
      > represent 'state of the art' of what is known.
      >
      > "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey
      > books are
      > junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were
      > not so sad
      > (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an
      > impossible way).
      > Some are very good.
      >
      > I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of
      > the poll
      > feature of this group, if people were asked to rate
      > the dozen or so
      > most available reference books on our period,
      > including quality of
      > plates, etc.
      > -Rick
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
      > <lfjellman@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I
      > am mildly
      > interested
      > > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period
      > Scots husband
      > has gone
      > > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the
      > clothing you see,
      > and I
      > > want to make it right.
      > >
      > > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as
      > they are pretty
      > good
      > > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced
      > information, but to
      > > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they
      > are modern
      > > interpretations of period stuff. I have
      > difficulty in reconciling
      > some
      > > of the paintings with actual period sources I've
      > seen and would be
      > > interested in discussing sources with the artist
      > at some point. I
      > know
      > > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't
      > had access to. Mr.
      > > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are
      > very good, it is
      > > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or
      > quality of
      > primary
      > > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to
      > find the best
      > > material we can.
      > >
      > > I actually do have a website where I try to get
      > folks started in my
      > > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically
      > nothing Slavic
      > there
      > > at all. Perhaps that will change after our
      > trip(to England and
      > Poland)
      > > next year.
      > > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
      > > Ilaria
      > > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
      > >
      > >
      > > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good
      > humor - honest. but
      > my
      > > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a
      > terrific seconday
      > > source, just about the only one easy to get to in
      > its obscure
      > area -
      > > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make
      > it available to
      > all
      > > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly
      > what I would
      > do if
      > > I were researching croat stuff.
      > >
      > > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website,
      > but if you want
      > to
      > > contact him to ask him about his source materials,
      > send me a note
      > off-
      > > line.
      > > -RIck
      > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
      > <lfjellman@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hmm.
      > > > That site was being put forward as a place to go
      > for "research"
      > and
      > > > information on Croatian Costume.
      > > > Guess I thought that I would find more
      > information than modern
      > > > paintings.
      > > >
      > > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli.
      > Mistakes happen.
      > > > Ilaria
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of
      > his artwork,
      > not a
      > > > history website.
      > > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works,
      > and good luck
      > in
      > > > creating that history website, filled with the
      > original
      > iconography
      > > > which you will collect
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • Rick Orli
      Modern drawings are no more or less secondary than the text, and if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess than the picture, then
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 4, 2006
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        Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than the text, and
        if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess
        than the picture, then the reader is under an illusion.

        Most histories are rife with passages where the author tell us (for
        example) what this or that King or general was thinking, his
        motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed and reasonable
        guesswork.

        The illustration is just more clearly an *example* of what may have
        been. -Rick


        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
        >
        > Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
        > are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
        > only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
        > Even period drawings and paintings are considered
        > only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
        > an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
        > drawing from a dig.
        > In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
        > they are completely subject to artistic licence at
        > best and the demands of the original patron for a more
        > flattering portrayal at worse.
        > 'dok
      • Tim Nalley
        LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference between historial vs. antiquarian research /interpretation. I generally read every source and look for
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 5, 2006
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          LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference
          between historial vs. antiquarian research
          /interpretation. I generally read every source and
          look for re-occuring "facts", then try to verify those
          "facts" with the timeline we can verify....Often, I've
          found that a whole new historical record begins to
          appear behind the hyperboly and politik! One of my
          professors used to say that history is the true
          sausage factory, every bit of nasty meat and
          eyewatering spice goes into it and nice, pleasant
          looking sausages emerge in the publish or perish
          histories, like those drawings! Very illustrative and
          sanitized but hardly definitive.
          The other end is gettiing so gritty in your
          interpretation that you are unable to see that some
          groups were indeed sanitized and rigorously neat and
          clean, almost benial! The Civil War folks have that
          huge blind spot but niether faction can compromise
          enough to utilize it at events to show one of the more
          interesting aspects of that time....politics
          mascarading as record, the triumph of form over
          matter.
          Always enjoy your posts!
          'dok
          --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

          > Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than
          > the text, and
          > if the words seem less of a speculative
          > interpretation or even guess
          > than the picture, then the reader is under an
          > illusion.
          >
          > Most histories are rife with passages where the
          > author tell us (for
          > example) what this or that King or general was
          > thinking, his
          > motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed
          > and reasonable
          > guesswork.
          >
          > The illustration is just more clearly an *example*
          > of what may have
          > been. -Rick
          >
          >

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