Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Croatian Costume, proposed poll

Expand Messages
  • Rick Orli
    The plates represent, or should represent, the interpertation of a trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject and privy to lots of primary materials the
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
      The plates represent, or should represent, the interpertation of a
      trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject and privy to lots
      of primary materials the rest of us can't access; their guess is
      probabally better than most guesses. Also, the author is responsible
      for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all their faults, they
      represent 'state of the art' of what is known.

      "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey books are
      junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were not so sad
      (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an impossible way).
      Some are very good.

      I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of the poll
      feature of this group, if people were asked to rate the dozen or so
      most available reference books on our period, including quality of
      plates, etc.
      -Rick



      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly
      interested
      > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband
      has gone
      > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the clothing you see,
      and I
      > want to make it right.
      >
      > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as they are pretty
      good
      > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced information, but to
      > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they are modern
      > interpretations of period stuff. I have difficulty in reconciling
      some
      > of the paintings with actual period sources I've seen and would be
      > interested in discussing sources with the artist at some point. I
      know
      > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't had access to. Mr.
      > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are very good, it is
      > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or quality of
      primary
      > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to find the best
      > material we can.
      >
      > I actually do have a website where I try to get folks started in my
      > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically nothing Slavic
      there
      > at all. Perhaps that will change after our trip(to England and
      Poland)
      > next year.
      > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
      > Ilaria
      > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
      >
      >
      > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but
      my
      > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
      > source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure
      area -
      > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to
      all
      > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would
      do if
      > I were researching croat stuff.
      >
      > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want
      to
      > contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note
      off-
      > line.
      > -RIck
      > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hmm.
      > > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research"
      and
      > > information on Croatian Costume.
      > > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
      > > paintings.
      > >
      > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
      > > Ilaria
      > >
      > >
      > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork,
      not a
      > > history website.
      > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck
      in
      > > creating that history website, filled with the original
      iconography
      > > which you will collect
      >
    • Tim Nalley
      Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions are illustrative at best in the Ospery s and function only in a visualization and entertainment capacity! Even
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
        Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
        are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
        only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
        Even period drawings and paintings are considered
        only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
        an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
        drawing from a dig.
        In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
        they are completely subject to artistic licence at
        best and the demands of the original patron for a more
        flattering portrayal at worse.
        'dok

        --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

        > The plates represent, or should represent, the
        > interpertation of a
        > trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject
        > and privy to lots
        > of primary materials the rest of us can't access;
        > their guess is
        > probabally better than most guesses. Also, the
        > author is responsible
        > for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all
        > their faults, they
        > represent 'state of the art' of what is known.
        >
        > "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey
        > books are
        > junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were
        > not so sad
        > (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an
        > impossible way).
        > Some are very good.
        >
        > I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of
        > the poll
        > feature of this group, if people were asked to rate
        > the dozen or so
        > most available reference books on our period,
        > including quality of
        > plates, etc.
        > -Rick
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
        > <lfjellman@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I
        > am mildly
        > interested
        > > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period
        > Scots husband
        > has gone
        > > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the
        > clothing you see,
        > and I
        > > want to make it right.
        > >
        > > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as
        > they are pretty
        > good
        > > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced
        > information, but to
        > > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they
        > are modern
        > > interpretations of period stuff. I have
        > difficulty in reconciling
        > some
        > > of the paintings with actual period sources I've
        > seen and would be
        > > interested in discussing sources with the artist
        > at some point. I
        > know
        > > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't
        > had access to. Mr.
        > > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are
        > very good, it is
        > > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or
        > quality of
        > primary
        > > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to
        > find the best
        > > material we can.
        > >
        > > I actually do have a website where I try to get
        > folks started in my
        > > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically
        > nothing Slavic
        > there
        > > at all. Perhaps that will change after our
        > trip(to England and
        > Poland)
        > > next year.
        > > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
        > > Ilaria
        > > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
        > >
        > >
        > > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good
        > humor - honest. but
        > my
        > > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a
        > terrific seconday
        > > source, just about the only one easy to get to in
        > its obscure
        > area -
        > > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make
        > it available to
        > all
        > > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly
        > what I would
        > do if
        > > I were researching croat stuff.
        > >
        > > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website,
        > but if you want
        > to
        > > contact him to ask him about his source materials,
        > send me a note
        > off-
        > > line.
        > > -RIck
        > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
        > <lfjellman@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hmm.
        > > > That site was being put forward as a place to go
        > for "research"
        > and
        > > > information on Croatian Costume.
        > > > Guess I thought that I would find more
        > information than modern
        > > > paintings.
        > > >
        > > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli.
        > Mistakes happen.
        > > > Ilaria
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of
        > his artwork,
        > not a
        > > > history website.
        > > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works,
        > and good luck
        > in
        > > > creating that history website, filled with the
        > original
        > iconography
        > > > which you will collect
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Rick Orli
        Modern drawings are no more or less secondary than the text, and if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess than the picture, then
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 4, 2006
          Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than the text, and
          if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess
          than the picture, then the reader is under an illusion.

          Most histories are rife with passages where the author tell us (for
          example) what this or that King or general was thinking, his
          motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed and reasonable
          guesswork.

          The illustration is just more clearly an *example* of what may have
          been. -Rick


          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
          > are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
          > only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
          > Even period drawings and paintings are considered
          > only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
          > an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
          > drawing from a dig.
          > In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
          > they are completely subject to artistic licence at
          > best and the demands of the original patron for a more
          > flattering portrayal at worse.
          > 'dok
        • Tim Nalley
          LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference between historial vs. antiquarian research /interpretation. I generally read every source and look for
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 5, 2006
            LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference
            between historial vs. antiquarian research
            /interpretation. I generally read every source and
            look for re-occuring "facts", then try to verify those
            "facts" with the timeline we can verify....Often, I've
            found that a whole new historical record begins to
            appear behind the hyperboly and politik! One of my
            professors used to say that history is the true
            sausage factory, every bit of nasty meat and
            eyewatering spice goes into it and nice, pleasant
            looking sausages emerge in the publish or perish
            histories, like those drawings! Very illustrative and
            sanitized but hardly definitive.
            The other end is gettiing so gritty in your
            interpretation that you are unable to see that some
            groups were indeed sanitized and rigorously neat and
            clean, almost benial! The Civil War folks have that
            huge blind spot but niether faction can compromise
            enough to utilize it at events to show one of the more
            interesting aspects of that time....politics
            mascarading as record, the triumph of form over
            matter.
            Always enjoy your posts!
            'dok
            --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

            > Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than
            > the text, and
            > if the words seem less of a speculative
            > interpretation or even guess
            > than the picture, then the reader is under an
            > illusion.
            >
            > Most histories are rife with passages where the
            > author tell us (for
            > example) what this or that King or general was
            > thinking, his
            > motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed
            > and reasonable
            > guesswork.
            >
            > The illustration is just more clearly an *example*
            > of what may have
            > been. -Rick
            >
            >

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.