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Re: Croatian Costume

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  • Rick Orli
    Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my suggestion is dead serious. Vusik s work is a terrific seconday source, just about the
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
      Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my
      suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
      source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure area -
      if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to all
      of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would do if
      I were researching croat stuff.

      I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want to
      contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note off-
      line.
      -RIck
      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hmm.
      > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
      > information on Croatian Costume.
      > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
      > paintings.
      >
      > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
      > Ilaria
      >
      >
      > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
      > history website.
      > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
      > creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
      > which you will collect
    • Lynda Fjellman
      I m not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly interested in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband has gone to live in
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
        I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly interested
        in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband has gone
        to live in Poland. I get to make some of the clothing you see, and I
        want to make it right.

        I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as they are pretty good
        for beginners and not too bad for more advanced information, but to
        ignore the color pictures in the middle as they are modern
        interpretations of period stuff. I have difficulty in reconciling some
        of the paintings with actual period sources I've seen and would be
        interested in discussing sources with the artist at some point. I know
        there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't had access to. Mr.
        Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are very good, it is
        where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or quality of primary
        sources) that we all have to watch out and work to find the best
        material we can.

        I actually do have a website where I try to get folks started in my
        particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically nothing Slavic there
        at all. Perhaps that will change after our trip(to England and Poland)
        next year.
        Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
        Ilaria
        www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com


        Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my
        suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
        source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure area -
        if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to all
        of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would do if
        I were researching croat stuff.

        I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want to
        contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note off-
        line.
        -RIck
        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hmm.
        > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
        > information on Croatian Costume.
        > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
        > paintings.
        >
        > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
        > Ilaria
        >
        >
        > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
        > history website.
        > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
        > creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
        > which you will collect
      • Rick Orli
        The plates represent, or should represent, the interpertation of a trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject and privy to lots of primary materials the
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
          The plates represent, or should represent, the interpertation of a
          trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject and privy to lots
          of primary materials the rest of us can't access; their guess is
          probabally better than most guesses. Also, the author is responsible
          for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all their faults, they
          represent 'state of the art' of what is known.

          "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey books are
          junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were not so sad
          (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an impossible way).
          Some are very good.

          I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of the poll
          feature of this group, if people were asked to rate the dozen or so
          most available reference books on our period, including quality of
          plates, etc.
          -Rick



          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly
          interested
          > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband
          has gone
          > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the clothing you see,
          and I
          > want to make it right.
          >
          > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as they are pretty
          good
          > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced information, but to
          > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they are modern
          > interpretations of period stuff. I have difficulty in reconciling
          some
          > of the paintings with actual period sources I've seen and would be
          > interested in discussing sources with the artist at some point. I
          know
          > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't had access to. Mr.
          > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are very good, it is
          > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or quality of
          primary
          > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to find the best
          > material we can.
          >
          > I actually do have a website where I try to get folks started in my
          > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically nothing Slavic
          there
          > at all. Perhaps that will change after our trip(to England and
          Poland)
          > next year.
          > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
          > Ilaria
          > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
          >
          >
          > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but
          my
          > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
          > source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure
          area -
          > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to
          all
          > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would
          do if
          > I were researching croat stuff.
          >
          > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want
          to
          > contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note
          off-
          > line.
          > -RIck
          > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hmm.
          > > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research"
          and
          > > information on Croatian Costume.
          > > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
          > > paintings.
          > >
          > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
          > > Ilaria
          > >
          > >
          > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork,
          not a
          > > history website.
          > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck
          in
          > > creating that history website, filled with the original
          iconography
          > > which you will collect
          >
        • Tim Nalley
          Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions are illustrative at best in the Ospery s and function only in a visualization and entertainment capacity! Even
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
            Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
            are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
            only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
            Even period drawings and paintings are considered
            only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
            an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
            drawing from a dig.
            In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
            they are completely subject to artistic licence at
            best and the demands of the original patron for a more
            flattering portrayal at worse.
            'dok

            --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

            > The plates represent, or should represent, the
            > interpertation of a
            > trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject
            > and privy to lots
            > of primary materials the rest of us can't access;
            > their guess is
            > probabally better than most guesses. Also, the
            > author is responsible
            > for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all
            > their faults, they
            > represent 'state of the art' of what is known.
            >
            > "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey
            > books are
            > junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were
            > not so sad
            > (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an
            > impossible way).
            > Some are very good.
            >
            > I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of
            > the poll
            > feature of this group, if people were asked to rate
            > the dozen or so
            > most available reference books on our period,
            > including quality of
            > plates, etc.
            > -Rick
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
            > <lfjellman@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I
            > am mildly
            > interested
            > > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period
            > Scots husband
            > has gone
            > > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the
            > clothing you see,
            > and I
            > > want to make it right.
            > >
            > > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as
            > they are pretty
            > good
            > > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced
            > information, but to
            > > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they
            > are modern
            > > interpretations of period stuff. I have
            > difficulty in reconciling
            > some
            > > of the paintings with actual period sources I've
            > seen and would be
            > > interested in discussing sources with the artist
            > at some point. I
            > know
            > > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't
            > had access to. Mr.
            > > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are
            > very good, it is
            > > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or
            > quality of
            > primary
            > > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to
            > find the best
            > > material we can.
            > >
            > > I actually do have a website where I try to get
            > folks started in my
            > > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically
            > nothing Slavic
            > there
            > > at all. Perhaps that will change after our
            > trip(to England and
            > Poland)
            > > next year.
            > > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
            > > Ilaria
            > > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
            > >
            > >
            > > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good
            > humor - honest. but
            > my
            > > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a
            > terrific seconday
            > > source, just about the only one easy to get to in
            > its obscure
            > area -
            > > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make
            > it available to
            > all
            > > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly
            > what I would
            > do if
            > > I were researching croat stuff.
            > >
            > > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website,
            > but if you want
            > to
            > > contact him to ask him about his source materials,
            > send me a note
            > off-
            > > line.
            > > -RIck
            > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
            > <lfjellman@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hmm.
            > > > That site was being put forward as a place to go
            > for "research"
            > and
            > > > information on Croatian Costume.
            > > > Guess I thought that I would find more
            > information than modern
            > > > paintings.
            > > >
            > > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli.
            > Mistakes happen.
            > > > Ilaria
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of
            > his artwork,
            > not a
            > > > history website.
            > > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works,
            > and good luck
            > in
            > > > creating that history website, filled with the
            > original
            > iconography
            > > > which you will collect
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


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          • Rick Orli
            Modern drawings are no more or less secondary than the text, and if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess than the picture, then
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 4, 2006
              Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than the text, and
              if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess
              than the picture, then the reader is under an illusion.

              Most histories are rife with passages where the author tell us (for
              example) what this or that King or general was thinking, his
              motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed and reasonable
              guesswork.

              The illustration is just more clearly an *example* of what may have
              been. -Rick


              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
              > are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
              > only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
              > Even period drawings and paintings are considered
              > only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
              > an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
              > drawing from a dig.
              > In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
              > they are completely subject to artistic licence at
              > best and the demands of the original patron for a more
              > flattering portrayal at worse.
              > 'dok
            • Tim Nalley
              LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference between historial vs. antiquarian research /interpretation. I generally read every source and look for
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 5, 2006
                LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference
                between historial vs. antiquarian research
                /interpretation. I generally read every source and
                look for re-occuring "facts", then try to verify those
                "facts" with the timeline we can verify....Often, I've
                found that a whole new historical record begins to
                appear behind the hyperboly and politik! One of my
                professors used to say that history is the true
                sausage factory, every bit of nasty meat and
                eyewatering spice goes into it and nice, pleasant
                looking sausages emerge in the publish or perish
                histories, like those drawings! Very illustrative and
                sanitized but hardly definitive.
                The other end is gettiing so gritty in your
                interpretation that you are unable to see that some
                groups were indeed sanitized and rigorously neat and
                clean, almost benial! The Civil War folks have that
                huge blind spot but niether faction can compromise
                enough to utilize it at events to show one of the more
                interesting aspects of that time....politics
                mascarading as record, the triumph of form over
                matter.
                Always enjoy your posts!
                'dok
                --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

                > Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than
                > the text, and
                > if the words seem less of a speculative
                > interpretation or even guess
                > than the picture, then the reader is under an
                > illusion.
                >
                > Most histories are rife with passages where the
                > author tell us (for
                > example) what this or that King or general was
                > thinking, his
                > motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed
                > and reasonable
                > guesswork.
                >
                > The illustration is just more clearly an *example*
                > of what may have
                > been. -Rick
                >
                >

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