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RE: [sig] Croatian Costume

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  • Katherine Barich
    Greetings Ilaria, I understand you might not be loving all expensive books Earl Edward is bringing home to looking :) I did a google - the first part of the
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 22, 2006
      Greetings Ilaria,

      I understand you might not be loving all expensive books Earl Edward is bringing home to looking :)

      I did a google - the first part of the URL is jagor -

      http://jagor.src.hr/husar

      Katrine


      ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
      From: "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...>
      Reply-To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:57:56 -0700

      >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

      >Is there something clipped or missing from this? It isn't working for
      >me.
      >Ilaria
      >
      >
      >Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • charles stefanich
      sorry my typing leaves a lot to be desired jagor.srce.hr/husar valkai istvan Lynda Fjellman wrote: Is there something clipped or missing
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 22, 2006
        sorry my typing leaves a lot to be desired jagor.srce.hr/husar
        valkai istvan

        Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:
        Is there something clipped or missing from this? It isn't working for
        me.
        Ilaria

        Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar






        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lynda Fjellman
        Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All the pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings. Even if in horrible condition, I need to
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 25, 2006
          Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All the
          pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
          Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the originals. I don't
          trust re-drawings.
          Are there links for any of these pictures. I know where to find pics
          for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am interested in. Either
          actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
          Ilaria


          Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.

          not jegor I guess its just a typo
        • Rick Orli
          eh-hum, you visited a famous artist s website of his artwork, not a history website. Sorry you are disapointed in the artist s works, and good luck in creating
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 26, 2006
            eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
            history website.
            Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
            creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
            which you will collect from the world's libraries and museams, which
            will wow us all. -Rick

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All
            the
            > pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
            > Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the originals. I don't
            > trust re-drawings.
            > Are there links for any of these pictures. I know where to find pics
            > for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am interested in.
            Either
            > actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
            > Ilaria
            >
            >
            > Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.
            >
            > not jegor I guess its just a typo
            >
          • Lynda Fjellman
            Hmm. That site was being put forward as a place to go for research and information on Croatian Costume. Guess I thought that I would find more information
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 26, 2006
              Hmm.
              That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
              information on Croatian Costume.
              Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
              paintings.

              There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
              Ilaria


              eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
              history website.
              Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
              creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
              which you will collect from the world's libraries and museams, which
              will wow us all. -Rick

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All
              the
              > pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
              > Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the originals. I don't
              > trust re-drawings.
              > Are there links for any of these pictures. I know where to find pics
              > for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am interested in.
              Either
              > actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
              > Ilaria
              >
              >
              > Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.
              >
              > not jegor I guess its just a typo
              >
            • charles stefanich
              I have been looking for years for information on Croatian garb. Mr. Vuksic s site is all I ve been able to find. Since he is a well know illustrator for the
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 26, 2006
                I have been looking for years for information on Croatian garb. Mr. Vuksic's site is all I've been able to find. Since he is a well know illustrator for the Osprey series of books I have some confidence in his research. He also authored a book on Croatian Warriors which I can't find anywhere. I believe it was published in Yugoslavia before the Independence of Croatia. I get the feeling unless some one goes to Croatia and scours the museums and gets pictures Mr. Vuksic's drawings are going to be the best I can find. If any one has any other resources I would really like to have them.
                Valkai Istvan

                Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                Hmm.
                That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
                information on Croatian Costume.
                Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                paintings.

                There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                Ilaria

                eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
                history website.
                Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
                creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
                which you will collect from the world's libraries and museams, which
                will wow us all. -Rick

                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All
                the
                > pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
                > Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the originals. I don't
                > trust re-drawings.
                > Are there links for any of these pictures. I know where to find pics
                > for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am interested in.
                Either
                > actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
                > Ilaria
                >
                >
                > Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.
                >
                > not jegor I guess its just a typo
                >






                ---------------------------------
                Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Katherine Barich
                ... I have access to a book at the University library where I work on the history of Yugoslavian costume that has some original 16th century artwork of
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 27, 2006
                  charles stefanich writes:
                  >I have been looking for years for information on Croatian garb. Mr. Vuksic's site is all I've been able to find. Since he is a well know illustrator for the Osprey series of books I have some confidence in his research. He also authored a book on Croatian Warriors which I can't find anywhere. I believe it was published in Yugoslavia before the Independence of Croatia. I get the feeling unless some one goes to Croatia and scours the museums and gets pictures Mr. Vuksic's drawings are going to be the best I can find. If any one has any other resources I would really like to have them.
                  > Valkai Istvan

                  I have access to a book at the University library where I work on the history of Yugoslavian costume that has some original 16th century artwork of Croatian warriors. I havent' really been scouring for earlier periods, but I can look. It does have some further period artwork, but it is a fairly small survey, written in cyrillic in Serbo-Croatian. (I can't read too much of it yet.) The book information is:

                  Author: Vasiæ, Pavle, 1907-
                  Title: Nošnja naroda Jugoslavije kroz istoriju.
                  Publisher: Beograd, Zavod za izdavanje udžbenika Socijalistièke Republike Srbije [1968]

                  I know Vecellio's Renaissance costume book has what is shown to be a Croatian, but sometimes this gets titled as "Polish". I have also run across an image in Emperor Maximilian's "Weisskunig" showing Max learning Croatian from what appears to be a Croat [IIRC]. I also seem to remember that there is a grave marker of a 16th century Croatian noble soldier that is quite detailed.

                  I've also been doing a survey of Croatian art books, when I can find them :) So far I've been noticing that the medieval trend is sometimes very Venetian looking, and sometimes there is a strong Byzantine Greek component, and again sometimes very Turkic in feel. I am starting to think costume in this area was vastly influenced by the current political situation.

                  I am quite excited to have just received a loverly book on Inter Library Loan called Croatian Folk Culture at the Crossroads. This is more directed at folk customs and clothing at the end of the 19th century, but I hope to learn quite a bit about later clothing that may give me some clues. This book is gorgeous and full of color photos.

                  Valkai, what period are you intereted in? I'll share the things I have found so far if you contact me off list.

                  Katherine Barich
                  (Katrine de Saint Brieuc in the SCA)
                • Kresimir Zeravica
                  Dear Sir The book you are refering to is a book from Tomislav and Viseslav Aralica (they are both historians) and it bears the title (in croatian) Hrvatski
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 30, 2006
                    Dear Sir
                    The book you are refering to is a book from Tomislav
                    and Viseslav Aralica (they are both historians) and it
                    bears the title (in croatian) "Hrvatski ratnici kroz
                    stoljeca" (or in eng) "Croatian warriors through the
                    centuries" its study spans from the year 800 ad thru
                    1918 and it includes illustrations from Mr.
                    Vukusic...or I presume it is so. The book was
                    published in 1996 which was three years after the
                    world recognised Croatia as an independent
                    country...it is highly unlikely that a study upon
                    Croatian warriors would have been done in Yugolsavia
                    and its oppressive regime towards us Croats.
                    But that is not the reason I am responding...you see I
                    have the book in question and if you tell me what you
                    are interested in specificaly I might be able to scan
                    and post sections of it for you.

                    And by the way officially there is no study made
                    solely on historical garb in Croatia as of yet...and
                    trust me I have tried to find it. I spoke with a
                    multitude of people in Croatia, historians and heads
                    of different museums. They tell me stuff like this
                    "Yeah I know its a crime really but noone has gotten
                    around to make a concise compilation of all the
                    available data on any level...or at least I am not
                    aware of it."

                    Considering influences go for Hungarian, Italian
                    (Venetian), Turkish or Bizanteen...depending on the
                    specific area and time you are trying to emulate.


                    --- charles stefanich <mos6238@...> wrote:

                    > I have been looking for years for information on
                    > Croatian garb. Mr. Vuksic's site is all I've been
                    > able to find. Since he is a well know illustrator
                    > for the Osprey series of books I have some
                    > confidence in his research. He also authored a book
                    > on Croatian Warriors which I can't find anywhere. I
                    > believe it was published in Yugoslavia before the
                    > Independence of Croatia. I get the feeling unless
                    > some one goes to Croatia and scours the museums and
                    > gets pictures Mr. Vuksic's drawings are going to be
                    > the best I can find. If any one has any other
                    > resources I would really like to have them.
                    > Valkai Istvan
                    >
                    > Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                    > Hmm.
                    > That site was being put forward as a place to go for
                    > "research" and
                    > information on Croatian Costume.
                    > Guess I thought that I would find more information
                    > than modern
                    > paintings.
                    >
                    > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli.
                    > Mistakes happen.
                    > Ilaria
                    >
                    > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his
                    > artwork, not a
                    > history website.
                    > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and
                    > good luck in
                    > creating that history website, filled with the
                    > original iconography
                    > which you will collect from the world's libraries
                    > and museams, which
                    > will wow us all. -Rick
                    >
                    > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
                    > <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit
                    > disappointed. All
                    > the
                    > > pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
                    > > Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the
                    > originals. I don't
                    > > trust re-drawings.
                    > > Are there links for any of these pictures. I know
                    > where to find pics
                    > > for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am
                    > interested in.
                    > Either
                    > > actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
                    > > Ilaria
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.
                    > >
                    > > not jegor I guess its just a typo
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
                    > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


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                  • Rick Orli
                    Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my suggestion is dead serious. Vusik s work is a terrific seconday source, just about the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
                      Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my
                      suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
                      source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure area -
                      if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to all
                      of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would do if
                      I were researching croat stuff.

                      I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want to
                      contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note off-
                      line.
                      -RIck
                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hmm.
                      > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
                      > information on Croatian Costume.
                      > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                      > paintings.
                      >
                      > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                      > Ilaria
                      >
                      >
                      > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
                      > history website.
                      > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
                      > creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
                      > which you will collect
                    • Lynda Fjellman
                      I m not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly interested in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband has gone to live in
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
                        I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly interested
                        in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband has gone
                        to live in Poland. I get to make some of the clothing you see, and I
                        want to make it right.

                        I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as they are pretty good
                        for beginners and not too bad for more advanced information, but to
                        ignore the color pictures in the middle as they are modern
                        interpretations of period stuff. I have difficulty in reconciling some
                        of the paintings with actual period sources I've seen and would be
                        interested in discussing sources with the artist at some point. I know
                        there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't had access to. Mr.
                        Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are very good, it is
                        where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or quality of primary
                        sources) that we all have to watch out and work to find the best
                        material we can.

                        I actually do have a website where I try to get folks started in my
                        particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically nothing Slavic there
                        at all. Perhaps that will change after our trip(to England and Poland)
                        next year.
                        Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
                        Ilaria
                        www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com


                        Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my
                        suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
                        source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure area -
                        if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to all
                        of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would do if
                        I were researching croat stuff.

                        I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want to
                        contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note off-
                        line.
                        -RIck
                        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hmm.
                        > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
                        > information on Croatian Costume.
                        > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                        > paintings.
                        >
                        > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                        > Ilaria
                        >
                        >
                        > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
                        > history website.
                        > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
                        > creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
                        > which you will collect
                      • Rick Orli
                        The plates represent, or should represent, the interpertation of a trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject and privy to lots of primary materials the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
                          The plates represent, or should represent, the interpertation of a
                          trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject and privy to lots
                          of primary materials the rest of us can't access; their guess is
                          probabally better than most guesses. Also, the author is responsible
                          for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all their faults, they
                          represent 'state of the art' of what is known.

                          "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey books are
                          junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were not so sad
                          (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an impossible way).
                          Some are very good.

                          I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of the poll
                          feature of this group, if people were asked to rate the dozen or so
                          most available reference books on our period, including quality of
                          plates, etc.
                          -Rick



                          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly
                          interested
                          > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband
                          has gone
                          > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the clothing you see,
                          and I
                          > want to make it right.
                          >
                          > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as they are pretty
                          good
                          > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced information, but to
                          > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they are modern
                          > interpretations of period stuff. I have difficulty in reconciling
                          some
                          > of the paintings with actual period sources I've seen and would be
                          > interested in discussing sources with the artist at some point. I
                          know
                          > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't had access to. Mr.
                          > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are very good, it is
                          > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or quality of
                          primary
                          > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to find the best
                          > material we can.
                          >
                          > I actually do have a website where I try to get folks started in my
                          > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically nothing Slavic
                          there
                          > at all. Perhaps that will change after our trip(to England and
                          Poland)
                          > next year.
                          > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
                          > Ilaria
                          > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
                          >
                          >
                          > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but
                          my
                          > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
                          > source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure
                          area -
                          > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to
                          all
                          > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would
                          do if
                          > I were researching croat stuff.
                          >
                          > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want
                          to
                          > contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note
                          off-
                          > line.
                          > -RIck
                          > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hmm.
                          > > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research"
                          and
                          > > information on Croatian Costume.
                          > > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                          > > paintings.
                          > >
                          > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                          > > Ilaria
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork,
                          not a
                          > > history website.
                          > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck
                          in
                          > > creating that history website, filled with the original
                          iconography
                          > > which you will collect
                          >
                        • Tim Nalley
                          Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions are illustrative at best in the Ospery s and function only in a visualization and entertainment capacity! Even
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
                            Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
                            are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
                            only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
                            Even period drawings and paintings are considered
                            only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
                            an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
                            drawing from a dig.
                            In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
                            they are completely subject to artistic licence at
                            best and the demands of the original patron for a more
                            flattering portrayal at worse.
                            'dok

                            --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

                            > The plates represent, or should represent, the
                            > interpertation of a
                            > trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject
                            > and privy to lots
                            > of primary materials the rest of us can't access;
                            > their guess is
                            > probabally better than most guesses. Also, the
                            > author is responsible
                            > for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all
                            > their faults, they
                            > represent 'state of the art' of what is known.
                            >
                            > "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey
                            > books are
                            > junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were
                            > not so sad
                            > (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an
                            > impossible way).
                            > Some are very good.
                            >
                            > I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of
                            > the poll
                            > feature of this group, if people were asked to rate
                            > the dozen or so
                            > most available reference books on our period,
                            > including quality of
                            > plates, etc.
                            > -Rick
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
                            > <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I
                            > am mildly
                            > interested
                            > > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period
                            > Scots husband
                            > has gone
                            > > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the
                            > clothing you see,
                            > and I
                            > > want to make it right.
                            > >
                            > > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as
                            > they are pretty
                            > good
                            > > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced
                            > information, but to
                            > > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they
                            > are modern
                            > > interpretations of period stuff. I have
                            > difficulty in reconciling
                            > some
                            > > of the paintings with actual period sources I've
                            > seen and would be
                            > > interested in discussing sources with the artist
                            > at some point. I
                            > know
                            > > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't
                            > had access to. Mr.
                            > > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are
                            > very good, it is
                            > > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or
                            > quality of
                            > primary
                            > > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to
                            > find the best
                            > > material we can.
                            > >
                            > > I actually do have a website where I try to get
                            > folks started in my
                            > > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically
                            > nothing Slavic
                            > there
                            > > at all. Perhaps that will change after our
                            > trip(to England and
                            > Poland)
                            > > next year.
                            > > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
                            > > Ilaria
                            > > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good
                            > humor - honest. but
                            > my
                            > > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a
                            > terrific seconday
                            > > source, just about the only one easy to get to in
                            > its obscure
                            > area -
                            > > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make
                            > it available to
                            > all
                            > > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly
                            > what I would
                            > do if
                            > > I were researching croat stuff.
                            > >
                            > > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website,
                            > but if you want
                            > to
                            > > contact him to ask him about his source materials,
                            > send me a note
                            > off-
                            > > line.
                            > > -RIck
                            > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
                            > <lfjellman@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hmm.
                            > > > That site was being put forward as a place to go
                            > for "research"
                            > and
                            > > > information on Croatian Costume.
                            > > > Guess I thought that I would find more
                            > information than modern
                            > > > paintings.
                            > > >
                            > > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli.
                            > Mistakes happen.
                            > > > Ilaria
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of
                            > his artwork,
                            > not a
                            > > > history website.
                            > > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works,
                            > and good luck
                            > in
                            > > > creating that history website, filled with the
                            > original
                            > iconography
                            > > > which you will collect
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


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                          • Rick Orli
                            Modern drawings are no more or less secondary than the text, and if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess than the picture, then
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 4, 2006
                              Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than the text, and
                              if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess
                              than the picture, then the reader is under an illusion.

                              Most histories are rife with passages where the author tell us (for
                              example) what this or that King or general was thinking, his
                              motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed and reasonable
                              guesswork.

                              The illustration is just more clearly an *example* of what may have
                              been. -Rick


                              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
                              > are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
                              > only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
                              > Even period drawings and paintings are considered
                              > only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
                              > an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
                              > drawing from a dig.
                              > In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
                              > they are completely subject to artistic licence at
                              > best and the demands of the original patron for a more
                              > flattering portrayal at worse.
                              > 'dok
                            • Tim Nalley
                              LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference between historial vs. antiquarian research /interpretation. I generally read every source and look for
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 5, 2006
                                LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference
                                between historial vs. antiquarian research
                                /interpretation. I generally read every source and
                                look for re-occuring "facts", then try to verify those
                                "facts" with the timeline we can verify....Often, I've
                                found that a whole new historical record begins to
                                appear behind the hyperboly and politik! One of my
                                professors used to say that history is the true
                                sausage factory, every bit of nasty meat and
                                eyewatering spice goes into it and nice, pleasant
                                looking sausages emerge in the publish or perish
                                histories, like those drawings! Very illustrative and
                                sanitized but hardly definitive.
                                The other end is gettiing so gritty in your
                                interpretation that you are unable to see that some
                                groups were indeed sanitized and rigorously neat and
                                clean, almost benial! The Civil War folks have that
                                huge blind spot but niether faction can compromise
                                enough to utilize it at events to show one of the more
                                interesting aspects of that time....politics
                                mascarading as record, the triumph of form over
                                matter.
                                Always enjoy your posts!
                                'dok
                                --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

                                > Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than
                                > the text, and
                                > if the words seem less of a speculative
                                > interpretation or even guess
                                > than the picture, then the reader is under an
                                > illusion.
                                >
                                > Most histories are rife with passages where the
                                > author tell us (for
                                > example) what this or that King or general was
                                > thinking, his
                                > motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed
                                > and reasonable
                                > guesswork.
                                >
                                > The illustration is just more clearly an *example*
                                > of what may have
                                > been. -Rick
                                >
                                >

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