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Re: [sig] Croatian Costume

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  • charles stefanich
    Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar. This site is by noted Croatian military historian and artist Velimir Vuksic. There are around 100 paintings from ancient to
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 20, 2006
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      Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar. This site is by noted Croatian military historian and artist Velimir Vuksic. There are around 100 paintings from ancient to late Middle Ages. Well researched
      Valkai Istvan

      Katherine Barich <wheezul@...> wrote:
      Greetings to the list,

      I am Katrine de Saint Brieuc, of An Tir, and my husband would like to have a 16th century-ish Croatian outfit. I have a few pieces of artwork, but am wondering if anyone has any specific resources to share?

      Thank you for letting me join your list!






      ---------------------------------
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    • Lynda Fjellman
      Is there something clipped or missing from this? It isn t working for me. Ilaria Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 22, 2006
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        Is there something clipped or missing from this? It isn't working for
        me.
        Ilaria


        Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar
      • Katherine Barich
        Greetings Ilaria, I understand you might not be loving all expensive books Earl Edward is bringing home to looking :) I did a google - the first part of the
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 22, 2006
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          Greetings Ilaria,

          I understand you might not be loving all expensive books Earl Edward is bringing home to looking :)

          I did a google - the first part of the URL is jagor -

          http://jagor.src.hr/husar

          Katrine


          ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
          From: "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...>
          Reply-To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:57:56 -0700

          >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

          >Is there something clipped or missing from this? It isn't working for
          >me.
          >Ilaria
          >
          >
          >Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Kseniia Smolnianina
          Hey, Katrine! Welcome! :) Wish I could help, but Russian s pretty much all I know... --Kseniia ... -- ********************************** HL Kseniia
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 22, 2006
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            Hey, Katrine! Welcome! :) Wish I could help, but Russian's pretty much
            all I know...

            --Kseniia

            On 9/20/06, Katherine Barich <wheezul@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings to the list,
            >
            > I am Katrine de Saint Brieuc, of An Tir, and my husband would like to have
            > a 16th century-ish Croatian outfit. I have a few pieces of artwork, but am
            > wondering if anyone has any specific resources to share?
            >
            > Thank you for letting me join your list!
            >
            > __._,_.__
            >


            --
            **********************************
            HL Kseniia Smolnianina, JdL
            Barony of Three Mountains
            Kingdom of An Tir
            http://kseniia_antir.livejournal.com
            *Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes*


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • charles stefanich
            sorry my typing leaves a lot to be desired jagor.srce.hr/husar valkai istvan Lynda Fjellman wrote: Is there something clipped or missing
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 22, 2006
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              sorry my typing leaves a lot to be desired jagor.srce.hr/husar
              valkai istvan

              Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:
              Is there something clipped or missing from this? It isn't working for
              me.
              Ilaria

              Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar






              ---------------------------------
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            • Kresimir Zeravica
              Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar. not jegor I guess its just a typo ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 23, 2006
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                Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.

                not jegor I guess its just a typo


                --- Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:

                > Is there something clipped or missing from this? It
                > isn't working for
                > me.
                > Ilaria
                >
                >
                > Try http://jegor.srce.hr/husar
                >
                >
                >


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              • Lynda Fjellman
                Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All the pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings. Even if in horrible condition, I need to
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 25, 2006
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                  Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All the
                  pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
                  Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the originals. I don't
                  trust re-drawings.
                  Are there links for any of these pictures. I know where to find pics
                  for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am interested in. Either
                  actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
                  Ilaria


                  Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.

                  not jegor I guess its just a typo
                • Rick Orli
                  eh-hum, you visited a famous artist s website of his artwork, not a history website. Sorry you are disapointed in the artist s works, and good luck in creating
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 26, 2006
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                    eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
                    history website.
                    Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
                    creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
                    which you will collect from the world's libraries and museams, which
                    will wow us all. -Rick

                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All
                    the
                    > pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
                    > Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the originals. I don't
                    > trust re-drawings.
                    > Are there links for any of these pictures. I know where to find pics
                    > for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am interested in.
                    Either
                    > actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
                    > Ilaria
                    >
                    >
                    > Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.
                    >
                    > not jegor I guess its just a typo
                    >
                  • Lynda Fjellman
                    Hmm. That site was being put forward as a place to go for research and information on Croatian Costume. Guess I thought that I would find more information
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 26, 2006
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                      Hmm.
                      That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
                      information on Croatian Costume.
                      Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                      paintings.

                      There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                      Ilaria


                      eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
                      history website.
                      Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
                      creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
                      which you will collect from the world's libraries and museams, which
                      will wow us all. -Rick

                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All
                      the
                      > pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
                      > Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the originals. I don't
                      > trust re-drawings.
                      > Are there links for any of these pictures. I know where to find pics
                      > for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am interested in.
                      Either
                      > actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
                      > Ilaria
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.
                      >
                      > not jegor I guess its just a typo
                      >
                    • charles stefanich
                      I have been looking for years for information on Croatian garb. Mr. Vuksic s site is all I ve been able to find. Since he is a well know illustrator for the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 26, 2006
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                        I have been looking for years for information on Croatian garb. Mr. Vuksic's site is all I've been able to find. Since he is a well know illustrator for the Osprey series of books I have some confidence in his research. He also authored a book on Croatian Warriors which I can't find anywhere. I believe it was published in Yugoslavia before the Independence of Croatia. I get the feeling unless some one goes to Croatia and scours the museums and gets pictures Mr. Vuksic's drawings are going to be the best I can find. If any one has any other resources I would really like to have them.
                        Valkai Istvan

                        Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                        Hmm.
                        That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
                        information on Croatian Costume.
                        Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                        paintings.

                        There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                        Ilaria

                        eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
                        history website.
                        Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
                        creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
                        which you will collect from the world's libraries and museams, which
                        will wow us all. -Rick

                        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit disappointed. All
                        the
                        > pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
                        > Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the originals. I don't
                        > trust re-drawings.
                        > Are there links for any of these pictures. I know where to find pics
                        > for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am interested in.
                        Either
                        > actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
                        > Ilaria
                        >
                        >
                        > Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.
                        >
                        > not jegor I guess its just a typo
                        >






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                      • Katherine Barich
                        ... I have access to a book at the University library where I work on the history of Yugoslavian costume that has some original 16th century artwork of
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 27, 2006
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                          charles stefanich writes:
                          >I have been looking for years for information on Croatian garb. Mr. Vuksic's site is all I've been able to find. Since he is a well know illustrator for the Osprey series of books I have some confidence in his research. He also authored a book on Croatian Warriors which I can't find anywhere. I believe it was published in Yugoslavia before the Independence of Croatia. I get the feeling unless some one goes to Croatia and scours the museums and gets pictures Mr. Vuksic's drawings are going to be the best I can find. If any one has any other resources I would really like to have them.
                          > Valkai Istvan

                          I have access to a book at the University library where I work on the history of Yugoslavian costume that has some original 16th century artwork of Croatian warriors. I havent' really been scouring for earlier periods, but I can look. It does have some further period artwork, but it is a fairly small survey, written in cyrillic in Serbo-Croatian. (I can't read too much of it yet.) The book information is:

                          Author: Vasiæ, Pavle, 1907-
                          Title: Nošnja naroda Jugoslavije kroz istoriju.
                          Publisher: Beograd, Zavod za izdavanje udžbenika Socijalistièke Republike Srbije [1968]

                          I know Vecellio's Renaissance costume book has what is shown to be a Croatian, but sometimes this gets titled as "Polish". I have also run across an image in Emperor Maximilian's "Weisskunig" showing Max learning Croatian from what appears to be a Croat [IIRC]. I also seem to remember that there is a grave marker of a 16th century Croatian noble soldier that is quite detailed.

                          I've also been doing a survey of Croatian art books, when I can find them :) So far I've been noticing that the medieval trend is sometimes very Venetian looking, and sometimes there is a strong Byzantine Greek component, and again sometimes very Turkic in feel. I am starting to think costume in this area was vastly influenced by the current political situation.

                          I am quite excited to have just received a loverly book on Inter Library Loan called Croatian Folk Culture at the Crossroads. This is more directed at folk customs and clothing at the end of the 19th century, but I hope to learn quite a bit about later clothing that may give me some clues. This book is gorgeous and full of color photos.

                          Valkai, what period are you intereted in? I'll share the things I have found so far if you contact me off list.

                          Katherine Barich
                          (Katrine de Saint Brieuc in the SCA)
                        • Kresimir Zeravica
                          Dear Sir The book you are refering to is a book from Tomislav and Viseslav Aralica (they are both historians) and it bears the title (in croatian) Hrvatski
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 30, 2006
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                            Dear Sir
                            The book you are refering to is a book from Tomislav
                            and Viseslav Aralica (they are both historians) and it
                            bears the title (in croatian) "Hrvatski ratnici kroz
                            stoljeca" (or in eng) "Croatian warriors through the
                            centuries" its study spans from the year 800 ad thru
                            1918 and it includes illustrations from Mr.
                            Vukusic...or I presume it is so. The book was
                            published in 1996 which was three years after the
                            world recognised Croatia as an independent
                            country...it is highly unlikely that a study upon
                            Croatian warriors would have been done in Yugolsavia
                            and its oppressive regime towards us Croats.
                            But that is not the reason I am responding...you see I
                            have the book in question and if you tell me what you
                            are interested in specificaly I might be able to scan
                            and post sections of it for you.

                            And by the way officially there is no study made
                            solely on historical garb in Croatia as of yet...and
                            trust me I have tried to find it. I spoke with a
                            multitude of people in Croatia, historians and heads
                            of different museums. They tell me stuff like this
                            "Yeah I know its a crime really but noone has gotten
                            around to make a concise compilation of all the
                            available data on any level...or at least I am not
                            aware of it."

                            Considering influences go for Hungarian, Italian
                            (Venetian), Turkish or Bizanteen...depending on the
                            specific area and time you are trying to emulate.


                            --- charles stefanich <mos6238@...> wrote:

                            > I have been looking for years for information on
                            > Croatian garb. Mr. Vuksic's site is all I've been
                            > able to find. Since he is a well know illustrator
                            > for the Osprey series of books I have some
                            > confidence in his research. He also authored a book
                            > on Croatian Warriors which I can't find anywhere. I
                            > believe it was published in Yugoslavia before the
                            > Independence of Croatia. I get the feeling unless
                            > some one goes to Croatia and scours the museums and
                            > gets pictures Mr. Vuksic's drawings are going to be
                            > the best I can find. If any one has any other
                            > resources I would really like to have them.
                            > Valkai Istvan
                            >
                            > Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                            > Hmm.
                            > That site was being put forward as a place to go for
                            > "research" and
                            > information on Croatian Costume.
                            > Guess I thought that I would find more information
                            > than modern
                            > paintings.
                            >
                            > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli.
                            > Mistakes happen.
                            > Ilaria
                            >
                            > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his
                            > artwork, not a
                            > history website.
                            > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and
                            > good luck in
                            > creating that history website, filled with the
                            > original iconography
                            > which you will collect from the world's libraries
                            > and museams, which
                            > will wow us all. -Rick
                            >
                            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
                            > <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for the link, but I must admit I am a bit
                            > disappointed. All
                            > the
                            > > pictures I looked at are modern re-drawings.
                            > > Even if in horrible condition, I need to see the
                            > originals. I don't
                            > > trust re-drawings.
                            > > Are there links for any of these pictures. I know
                            > where to find pics
                            > > for armor, it is the clothing and horse gear I am
                            > interested in.
                            > Either
                            > > actual extant pieces or pictures from the era.
                            > > Ilaria
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hey guys the adress is http://jagor.srce.hr/husar.
                            > >
                            > > not jegor I guess its just a typo
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
                            > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


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                          • Rick Orli
                            Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my suggestion is dead serious. Vusik s work is a terrific seconday source, just about the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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                              Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my
                              suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
                              source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure area -
                              if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to all
                              of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would do if
                              I were researching croat stuff.

                              I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want to
                              contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note off-
                              line.
                              -RIck
                              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hmm.
                              > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
                              > information on Croatian Costume.
                              > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                              > paintings.
                              >
                              > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                              > Ilaria
                              >
                              >
                              > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
                              > history website.
                              > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
                              > creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
                              > which you will collect
                            • Lynda Fjellman
                              I m not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly interested in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband has gone to live in
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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                                I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly interested
                                in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband has gone
                                to live in Poland. I get to make some of the clothing you see, and I
                                want to make it right.

                                I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as they are pretty good
                                for beginners and not too bad for more advanced information, but to
                                ignore the color pictures in the middle as they are modern
                                interpretations of period stuff. I have difficulty in reconciling some
                                of the paintings with actual period sources I've seen and would be
                                interested in discussing sources with the artist at some point. I know
                                there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't had access to. Mr.
                                Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are very good, it is
                                where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or quality of primary
                                sources) that we all have to watch out and work to find the best
                                material we can.

                                I actually do have a website where I try to get folks started in my
                                particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically nothing Slavic there
                                at all. Perhaps that will change after our trip(to England and Poland)
                                next year.
                                Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
                                Ilaria
                                www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com


                                Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but my
                                suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
                                source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure area -
                                if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to all
                                of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would do if
                                I were researching croat stuff.

                                I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want to
                                contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note off-
                                line.
                                -RIck
                                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hmm.
                                > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research" and
                                > information on Croatian Costume.
                                > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                                > paintings.
                                >
                                > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                                > Ilaria
                                >
                                >
                                > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork, not a
                                > history website.
                                > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck in
                                > creating that history website, filled with the original iconography
                                > which you will collect
                              • Rick Orli
                                The plates represent, or should represent, the interpertation of a trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject and privy to lots of primary materials the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                  The plates represent, or should represent, the interpertation of a
                                  trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject and privy to lots
                                  of primary materials the rest of us can't access; their guess is
                                  probabally better than most guesses. Also, the author is responsible
                                  for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all their faults, they
                                  represent 'state of the art' of what is known.

                                  "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey books are
                                  junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were not so sad
                                  (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an impossible way).
                                  Some are very good.

                                  I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of the poll
                                  feature of this group, if people were asked to rate the dozen or so
                                  most available reference books on our period, including quality of
                                  plates, etc.
                                  -Rick



                                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I am mildly
                                  interested
                                  > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period Scots husband
                                  has gone
                                  > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the clothing you see,
                                  and I
                                  > want to make it right.
                                  >
                                  > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as they are pretty
                                  good
                                  > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced information, but to
                                  > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they are modern
                                  > interpretations of period stuff. I have difficulty in reconciling
                                  some
                                  > of the paintings with actual period sources I've seen and would be
                                  > interested in discussing sources with the artist at some point. I
                                  know
                                  > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't had access to. Mr.
                                  > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are very good, it is
                                  > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or quality of
                                  primary
                                  > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to find the best
                                  > material we can.
                                  >
                                  > I actually do have a website where I try to get folks started in my
                                  > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically nothing Slavic
                                  there
                                  > at all. Perhaps that will change after our trip(to England and
                                  Poland)
                                  > next year.
                                  > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
                                  > Ilaria
                                  > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good humor - honest. but
                                  my
                                  > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a terrific seconday
                                  > source, just about the only one easy to get to in its obscure
                                  area -
                                  > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make it available to
                                  all
                                  > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly what I would
                                  do if
                                  > I were researching croat stuff.
                                  >
                                  > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website, but if you want
                                  to
                                  > contact him to ask him about his source materials, send me a note
                                  off-
                                  > line.
                                  > -RIck
                                  > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hmm.
                                  > > That site was being put forward as a place to go for "research"
                                  and
                                  > > information on Croatian Costume.
                                  > > Guess I thought that I would find more information than modern
                                  > > paintings.
                                  > >
                                  > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli. Mistakes happen.
                                  > > Ilaria
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of his artwork,
                                  not a
                                  > > history website.
                                  > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works, and good luck
                                  in
                                  > > creating that history website, filled with the original
                                  iconography
                                  > > which you will collect
                                  >
                                • Tim Nalley
                                  Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions are illustrative at best in the Ospery s and function only in a visualization and entertainment capacity! Even
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                    Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
                                    are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
                                    only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
                                    Even period drawings and paintings are considered
                                    only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
                                    an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
                                    drawing from a dig.
                                    In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
                                    they are completely subject to artistic licence at
                                    best and the demands of the original patron for a more
                                    flattering portrayal at worse.
                                    'dok

                                    --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

                                    > The plates represent, or should represent, the
                                    > interpertation of a
                                    > trained scholar and expert imersed in the subject
                                    > and privy to lots
                                    > of primary materials the rest of us can't access;
                                    > their guess is
                                    > probabally better than most guesses. Also, the
                                    > author is responsible
                                    > for content, not the artist. Therefore, for all
                                    > their faults, they
                                    > represent 'state of the art' of what is known.
                                    >
                                    > "should" and reality diverge, and some of the osprey
                                    > books are
                                    > junk, , with errors that would be funny if they were
                                    > not so sad
                                    > (like the horse archer with the bow strung in an
                                    > impossible way).
                                    > Some are very good.
                                    >
                                    > I'm wondering if that might be an interesting use of
                                    > the poll
                                    > feature of this group, if people were asked to rate
                                    > the dozen or so
                                    > most available reference books on our period,
                                    > including quality of
                                    > plates, etc.
                                    > -Rick
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
                                    > <lfjellman@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm not actually researching Croatian anything, I
                                    > am mildly
                                    > interested
                                    > > in the whole Slavic area since my late SCA period
                                    > Scots husband
                                    > has gone
                                    > > to live in Poland. I get to make some of the
                                    > clothing you see,
                                    > and I
                                    > > want to make it right.
                                    > >
                                    > > I generally tell folks to pick up Osprey books as
                                    > they are pretty
                                    > good
                                    > > for beginners and not too bad for more advanced
                                    > information, but to
                                    > > ignore the color pictures in the middle as they
                                    > are modern
                                    > > interpretations of period stuff. I have
                                    > difficulty in reconciling
                                    > some
                                    > > of the paintings with actual period sources I've
                                    > seen and would be
                                    > > interested in discussing sources with the artist
                                    > at some point. I
                                    > know
                                    > > there is tons of stuff out there that I haven't
                                    > had access to. Mr.
                                    > > Vusik is a fine artist and his armor paintings are
                                    > very good, it is
                                    > > where some conjecture is being used(due to lack or
                                    > quality of
                                    > primary
                                    > > sources) that we all have to watch out and work to
                                    > find the best
                                    > > material we can.
                                    > >
                                    > > I actually do have a website where I try to get
                                    > folks started in my
                                    > > particular fields of interest. Sorry, practically
                                    > nothing Slavic
                                    > there
                                    > > at all. Perhaps that will change after our
                                    > trip(to England and
                                    > Poland)
                                    > > next year.
                                    > > Any suggestions on where to go to see stuff???
                                    > > Ilaria
                                    > > www.ilaria.veltri.tripod.com
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Rude, well maybe, sorry, it was meant in good
                                    > humor - honest. but
                                    > my
                                    > > suggestion is dead serious. Vusik's work is a
                                    > terrific seconday
                                    > > source, just about the only one easy to get to in
                                    > its obscure
                                    > area -
                                    > > if its not good enough, find the Primary and make
                                    > it available to
                                    > all
                                    > > of us. Nor is my suggestion empty, that is exactly
                                    > what I would
                                    > do if
                                    > > I were researching croat stuff.
                                    > >
                                    > > I don't think Vusik's email works on the website,
                                    > but if you want
                                    > to
                                    > > contact him to ask him about his source materials,
                                    > send me a note
                                    > off-
                                    > > line.
                                    > > -RIck
                                    > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Fjellman"
                                    > <lfjellman@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hmm.
                                    > > > That site was being put forward as a place to go
                                    > for "research"
                                    > and
                                    > > > information on Croatian Costume.
                                    > > > Guess I thought that I would find more
                                    > information than modern
                                    > > > paintings.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > There is really no reason to be rude Mr. Orli.
                                    > Mistakes happen.
                                    > > > Ilaria
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > eh-hum, you visited a famous artist's website of
                                    > his artwork,
                                    > not a
                                    > > > history website.
                                    > > > Sorry you are disapointed in the artist's works,
                                    > and good luck
                                    > in
                                    > > > creating that history website, filled with the
                                    > original
                                    > iconography
                                    > > > which you will collect
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


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                                  • Rick Orli
                                    Modern drawings are no more or less secondary than the text, and if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess than the picture, then
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                      Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than the text, and
                                      if the words seem less of a speculative interpretation or even guess
                                      than the picture, then the reader is under an illusion.

                                      Most histories are rife with passages where the author tell us (for
                                      example) what this or that King or general was thinking, his
                                      motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed and reasonable
                                      guesswork.

                                      The illustration is just more clearly an *example* of what may have
                                      been. -Rick


                                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well, strictly speaking, any artistic renditions
                                      > are illustrative at best in the Ospery's and function
                                      > only in a visualization and entertainment capacity!
                                      > Even period drawings and paintings are considered
                                      > only qualified secondary sources if also backed up by
                                      > an artifact of similar make, like an archeological
                                      > drawing from a dig.
                                      > In most cases, drawings are tertiary only because
                                      > they are completely subject to artistic licence at
                                      > best and the demands of the original patron for a more
                                      > flattering portrayal at worse.
                                      > 'dok
                                    • Tim Nalley
                                      LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference between historial vs. antiquarian research /interpretation. I generally read every source and look for
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                        LOL! A very succinct definition of the difference
                                        between historial vs. antiquarian research
                                        /interpretation. I generally read every source and
                                        look for re-occuring "facts", then try to verify those
                                        "facts" with the timeline we can verify....Often, I've
                                        found that a whole new historical record begins to
                                        appear behind the hyperboly and politik! One of my
                                        professors used to say that history is the true
                                        sausage factory, every bit of nasty meat and
                                        eyewatering spice goes into it and nice, pleasant
                                        looking sausages emerge in the publish or perish
                                        histories, like those drawings! Very illustrative and
                                        sanitized but hardly definitive.
                                        The other end is gettiing so gritty in your
                                        interpretation that you are unable to see that some
                                        groups were indeed sanitized and rigorously neat and
                                        clean, almost benial! The Civil War folks have that
                                        huge blind spot but niether faction can compromise
                                        enough to utilize it at events to show one of the more
                                        interesting aspects of that time....politics
                                        mascarading as record, the triumph of form over
                                        matter.
                                        Always enjoy your posts!
                                        'dok
                                        --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

                                        > Modern drawings are no more or less 'secondary' than
                                        > the text, and
                                        > if the words seem less of a speculative
                                        > interpretation or even guess
                                        > than the picture, then the reader is under an
                                        > illusion.
                                        >
                                        > Most histories are rife with passages where the
                                        > author tell us (for
                                        > example) what this or that King or general was
                                        > thinking, his
                                        > motives, etc. - all guesswork; hopefully informed
                                        > and reasonable
                                        > guesswork.
                                        >
                                        > The illustration is just more clearly an *example*
                                        > of what may have
                                        > been. -Rick
                                        >
                                        >

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