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Re: [sig] Question for the group

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  • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
    Pictures of what, and from where? Great question - in fact, Mordak & I were discussiong this very thing the other day. My understanding is, that since the
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 4, 2006
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      Pictures of what, and from where?

      Great question - in fact, Mordak & I were discussiong this very thing the
      other day. My understanding is, that since the Delia & Kontusz* are
      'Eastern' garments, they overlap like a modren women's garment - right over
      left. However, I also believe that it would not be impossible to say that at
      some point in the 400 or so years of the Commonwealth, *someone* would have
      felt more comfortable reversing the fold, or even having the overlap meet in
      the middle. So, while the bulk of our evidence suggests that ther 'Eastern'
      fashion was the most prevalent and the one most followed, if you wanted to
      make the overlap modern, well, that's what the C in the s C a is for! In
      fact, I am making a kontusz for my knight, and he specifically requested
      that I make the change follow modern practices.

      * - My personla, as-yet unproven theory, is that the Kontusz is related to
      the Rus riding coat. See http://www.jomsb.org/Rollo/coat/coat.htm . Contrast
      this with the reconstruction (from Turnau?) at Rick Orli's site
      http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/patterns.htm .


      On 9/4/06, Judwiga Czarna Pika <JudwigaCaidI@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi all, I have a question for everyone.
      > Now, on the documentation for all the jackets Ive seen they mention the
      > left
      > side goes over the right on the front. I understand that. But, then all
      > the
      > pictures I have seen have the middle as the front.
      > I am specifically looking at Delia's and Kontusz'...
      > Please let me know, I would love to make a jacket and have a pattern all
      > cut
      > out and ready to go...
      > Thanks all!
      > Judwiga
      >
      >
      >



      --
      Czesc Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
      Middle Kingdom, Pentamere, Shire of Talonval
      Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson, Master Mordok Rostovskogo
      SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org
      We have enough youth - how about a fountain of smart?


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • quokkaqueen
      I may be able to help with your theory there. :) The Rus riding coat you ve linked to (it s my favourite Viking coat too) isn t actually Norse at all. It s
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 4, 2006
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        I may be able to help with your theory there. :)

        The Rus riding coat you've linked to (it's my favourite Viking coat
        too) isn't actually Norse at all. It's from the Caucasus and is
        usually dated to the 10th century.

        There is a fantastic issue of the Metropolitan Museum Journal Vol. 36.
        (2001) that has quite a few articles about the garment, including it's
        'geneaology' or a discussion of its' influences.

        The Met Museum Journal backcopies can be very expensive, so if you
        don't have access to these articles, and want them e-mail me off-list
        and I'd be happy to post to you a CD with the articles.

        Also, if you search for 'caftan' on the Met Museum website, you can
        get colour photographs of the front and back of the conserved garment.

        Hope this information helps,
        ~Asfridhr
        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski" <panzygmunt@...>
        wrote:
        > * - My personla, as-yet unproven theory, is that the Kontusz is
        related to
        > the Rus riding coat. See http://www.jomsb.org/Rollo/coat/coat.htm .
      • Judwiga Czarna Pika
        Hey Zygmunt and all. Yes, at this point, this is most of what I am basing my comments on... but if you look at the Delias and Kontusz , it still looks like the
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 4, 2006
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          Hey Zygmunt and all.
          Yes, at this point, this is most of what I am basing my comments on... but
          if you look at the Delias and Kontusz', it still looks like the opening slit
          is in the middle.. sigh.. The one that I really like is the one that is
          clearly lined with Leopard.. I am using a leopard print on the inside of my
          red wool...
          Now, the Kontusz' I have seen seems like they have extra gores on the hip..
          good for riding. And the other jackets seem to have slits from the bottom
          hem up to maybe the knee. That would be more difficult to ride in I think..
          Ah well.. thanks all and keep any more comments coming in... I appreciate
          it!!
          Judwiga
        • Tim Nalley
          I agree with Asfridr and would like to add the thought that caftans have been recorded for 3000 years, starting in Central Asia and Persia. My guess is that is
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 5, 2006
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            I agree with Asfridr and would like to add the
            thought that caftans have been recorded for 3000
            years, starting in Central Asia and Persia. My guess
            is that is only the first RECORDED incidences of a
            garment that is much,, much older, probably neolithic.

            Rollo's "Rus coat" is based on the Moskaskaya
            Balka artifact, which is supposedly Alanic and from
            the Caucasus. The point is that "eastern coats" are
            mentioned in several of the Sagas, both the main ones
            and the secondary ones. The problematic element on
            artifacts is that only one or two varieties survive,
            when human nature is to make do with the materials on
            hand and sew to the level that you are capable,
            resulting in a plethora of versions similar to what we
            all see in T-tunics at any SCA event!
            'dok

            --- quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:

            > I may be able to help with your theory there. :)
            >
            > The Rus riding coat you've linked to (it's my
            > favourite Viking coat
            > too) isn't actually Norse at all. It's from the
            > Caucasus and is
            > usually dated to the 10th century.
            >
            > There is a fantastic issue of the Metropolitan
            > Museum Journal Vol. 36.
            > (2001) that has quite a few articles about the
            > garment, including it's
            > 'geneaology' or a discussion of its' influences.
            >
            > The Met Museum Journal backcopies can be very
            > expensive, so if you
            > don't have access to these articles, and want them
            > e-mail me off-list
            > and I'd be happy to post to you a CD with the
            > articles.
            >
            > Also, if you search for 'caftan' on the Met Museum
            > website, you can
            > get colour photographs of the front and back of the
            > conserved garment.
            >
            > Hope this information helps,
            > ~Asfridhr
            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Pan Zygmunt
            > Nadratowski" <panzygmunt@...>
            > wrote:
            > > * - My personla, as-yet unproven theory, is that
            > the Kontusz is
            > related to
            > > the Rus riding coat. See
            > http://www.jomsb.org/Rollo/coat/coat.htm .
            >
            >
            >
            >


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