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Re: [sig] Polish Names

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  • MoxFool@aol.com
    That should have read If it s a locative name... Zygmunt ... From: MoxFool@aol.com To: sig@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:16:48 -0400 Subject: Re:
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 12, 2006
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      That should have read "If it's a locative name..."

      Zygmunt

      -----Original Message-----
      From: MoxFool@...
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:16:48 -0400
      Subject: Re: [sig] Polish Names
      These seem to be reasonable, especially the second. If it's a cative name, there should be no reason to deny it. If all else fails, you could be "<Nice Polish Girl's Name> from Nawojka", and call yourself Nawojka to get around it.

      Choosing your name based on past royalty shouldn't be an impediment either - as long as you aren't trying to imply that's who you are, you're not breaking the Society rule against that, so again it should be allowed.

      If they are denying your request based on the time that name was available, that could be problematic. Your source indicated a late 1300's early 1400's time frame. If you have a more definate year (which the prayer book does have), you can use Irena's Turnau'
      s rule of thumb and figure that the name was likely already in use 10-20 years previous to the time it is first mentioned (again, unless there is evidence to the contrary).

      I hope this is useful!

      Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rosie <Rosie_0801@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:10:36 -0000
      Subject: [sig] Polish Names

      Hi All,
      I'm hoping someone here has the right kind of thinking cap for this
      job :)
      I'm trying to make an SCA name, and I wanted "Nawojka" but there are
      only two mildly reasonable references online, and our herald doesn't
      approve.
      The first one is a reference to a 15th century noblewoman, Nawojka
      Koniecpolska.
      www.kki.krakow.pl/pioinf/przemysl/dzieje/dzieje1_e.html

      The second is the "Prayerbook of Nawojka" from
      http://staropolska.gimnazjum.com.pl/ang/middleages/Mikos_middle/Liter
      ary_m.html

      As a budding historian I grimace that I must rely on such sources,
      but I still think it is a bit harsh to say these two mentions are no
      good at all. I would prefer something more watertight myself, of
      course, but they both refer to the same century...

      While Jadwiga is a perfectly reasonable name, there had to have been
      Polish women out there called something else; and I don't really
      feel like a Jadwiga.
      I shall be most grateful if anyone can help!
      Rosie (who feels a little bit Nawojka-ish)

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    • Paul W Goldschmidt
      Bummer! And here I was hoping that they had Cative names in Polish -- I was thinking it was the name for when you re being snarky, although a name for your
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 12, 2006
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        Bummer! And here I was hoping that they had Cative names in Polish
        -- I was thinking it was the name for when you're being snarky,
        although a name for your inner feline would do as well... :)

        -- Paul

        At 01:41 PM 6/12/2006, you wrote:

        >That should have read "If it's a locative name..."
        >
        >Zygmunt
        >
        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: <mailto:MoxFool%40aol.com>MoxFool@...
        >To: <mailto:sig%40yahoogroups.com>sig@yahoogroups.com
        >Sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:16:48 -0400
        >Subject: Re: [sig] Polish Names
        >These seem to be reasonable, especially the second. If it's a cative
        >name, there should be no reason to deny it. If all else fails, you
        >could be "<Nice Polish Girl's Name> from Nawojka", and call yourself
        >Nawojka to get around it.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • grunasulisz.asp@neostrada.pl
        Witaj Nawojko! The sotory of Nawojka (the first female student and teacher in Cracow University) is well known in Poland. I think you should look for more
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 12, 2006
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          Witaj Nawojko!

          The sotory of Nawojka (the first female student and teacher in Cracow University) is well known in Poland. I think you should look for more information about her at Jagiellonian University. She is a part of its legend.

          Here you have something about Nawojka (Natalia) from polish Wikipedia:

          Nawojka - na wpól legendarna postac z XV wieku uchodzaca za pierwsza polska studentke, a zarazem nauczycielke.

          W 1414 roku studia w Akademii Krakowskiej rozpoczal pietnastoletni Jakub syn Dominika z Gniezna. W rzeczywistosci byla to przebrana za chlopca Nawojka, córka rektora gnieznienskiej szkoly parafialnej.

          Nauke czytania i pisania po polsku i po lacinie wyniosla z rodzinnego domu. Dalsze ksztalcenie uniemozliwialy jej ówczesne przepisy zabraniajace przyjmowania kobiet w poczet studentów. Nie widzac innej mozliwosci, Nawojka posunela sie do podstepu. Kiedy w 1417 roku po trzech latach studiów przygotowywala sie do zlozenia koncowych egzaminów bakalarskich, zostala zdemaskowana przez syna wójta z Gniezna, rozpoczynajacego w tym czasie nauke w Akademii Krakowskiej.

          Nawojke postawiono przed sadem rektorskim. Stosu uniknela dzieki znakomitym swiadectwom nauki i moralnosci wystawionym przez profesorów. Zaraz potem poszla do klasztoru, gdzie prowadzila szkole nowicjatu.

          Imie Nawojki nosi powstaly w 1929 roku pierwszy zenski akademik Uniwersytetu Jagiellonskiego w Krakowie

          Best regards,

          Magdalena z Wroclawia

          [Too much quoting. Please trim your posts]
        • Art Plazewski
          ... are ... doesn t ... http://staropolska.gimnazjum.com.pl/ang/middleages/Mikos_middle/Liter ... no ... been ... lol....so is your herald polish native
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 12, 2006
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            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi All,
            > I'm hoping someone here has the right kind of thinking cap for this
            > job :)
            > I'm trying to make an SCA name, and I wanted "Nawojka" but there
            are
            > only two mildly reasonable references online, and our herald
            doesn't
            > approve.
            > The first one is a reference to a 15th century noblewoman, Nawojka
            > Koniecpolska.
            > www.kki.krakow.pl/pioinf/przemysl/dzieje/dzieje1_e.html
            >
            > The second is the "Prayerbook of Nawojka" from
            >
            http://staropolska.gimnazjum.com.pl/ang/middleages/Mikos_middle/Liter
            > ary_m.html
            >
            > As a budding historian I grimace that I must rely on such sources,
            > but I still think it is a bit harsh to say these two mentions are
            no
            > good at all. I would prefer something more watertight myself, of
            > course, but they both refer to the same century...
            >
            > While Jadwiga is a perfectly reasonable name, there had to have
            been
            > Polish women out there called something else; and I don't really
            > feel like a Jadwiga.
            > I shall be most grateful if anyone can help!
            > Rosie (who feels a little bit Nawojka-ish)
            >


            lol....so is your herald polish native speaker? if not tell him to
            drop me a line...;-)))
            btw - Nawojka , according to Alojzy Kalixt Kozlowski is a slavic
            equivalent of scandinavian name Jadwiga....so there you go...
            ;-))
            art
          • Rosie
            Thanks everyone :) Nope, the herald is not a native Polish speaker. How many native Polish speaking heralds do you think we have here in Lochac?! So who is
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 12, 2006
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              Thanks everyone :)
              Nope, the herald is not a native Polish speaker. How many native
              Polish speaking heralds do you think we have here in Lochac?!
              So who is Alojzy Kalixt Kozlowski? Is there an English translation
              (looks hopeful) and why is everyone in history called Jadwiga if
              Nawojka is the slavic equivelent? Does the Honourable Scholar
              Kozlowski give any dates and more specific locations for the name?
              :)
              Rosie the Surprised (that this was going to be so complicated)

              >
              > lol....so is your herald polish native speaker? if not tell him to
              > drop me a line...;-)))
              > btw - Nawojka , according to Alojzy Kalixt Kozlowski is a slavic
              > equivalent of scandinavian name Jadwiga....so there you go...
              > ;-))
              > art
              >
            • Art Plazewski
              ... here is some in english but all I have is in polish: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~atpc/heritage/history/h- life/women.html Kozlowski - xix
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 13, 2006
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                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks everyone :)
                > Nope, the herald is not a native Polish speaker. How many native
                > Polish speaking heralds do you think we have here in Lochac?!
                > So who is Alojzy Kalixt Kozlowski? Is there an English translation
                > (looks hopeful) and why is everyone in history called Jadwiga if
                > Nawojka is the slavic equivelent? Does the Honourable Scholar
                > Kozlowski give any dates and more specific locations for the name?
                > :)
                > Rosie the Surprised (that this was going to be so complicated)
                >
                >

                here is some in english but all I have is in polish:
                http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~atpc/heritage/history/h-
                life/women.html

                Kozlowski - xix century scholar...

                because Jadwiga (Hedwig) was the name popularized by the clergy...and
                clergy did not like old slavic names...

                ;-)
                art
              • Rosie
                Hmm. Unfortunately the story of the student does not mention her by name, at least not the translation I read in an obscure journal article I found. Maybe the
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 14, 2006
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                  Hmm. Unfortunately the story of the student does not mention her by
                  name, at least not the translation I read in an obscure journal
                  article I found. Maybe the version I found was incomplete?
                  Rosie (who sadly doesn't read Polish either...)
                • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                  ... However, it turns out that non-royals didn t use Jadwiga until rather late in period-- it first appears with the famous Jadwiga, who was born Hungarian.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 14, 2006
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                    > Choosing your name based on past royalty shouldn't be an impediment
                    >either - as long as you aren't trying to imply that's who you are,
                    >you're not breaking the Society rule against that, so again it should
                    >be allowed.

                    However, it turns out that non-royals didn't use Jadwiga until rather
                    late in period-- it first appears with the famous Jadwiga, who was born
                    Hungarian. Embarrassing for me, that.

                    On what basis is the herald complaining?

                    --
                    -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                    "Justice is better than chivalry if we cannot have both."
                    -- Alice Stone Blackwell
                  • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                    ... *blink* ? Jadwiga is a _scandinavian_ name? At best I thought it was a Polish version of Hedwig, which I thought was German, not Scandahoovian... -- --
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 14, 2006
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                      > lol....so is your herald polish native speaker? if not tell him to
                      > drop me a line...;-)))
                      > btw - Nawojka , according to Alojzy Kalixt Kozlowski is a slavic
                      > equivalent of scandinavian name Jadwiga....so there you go...

                      *blink* ?

                      Jadwiga is a _scandinavian_ name? At best I thought it was a Polish
                      version of Hedwig, which I thought was German, not Scandahoovian...

                      --
                      -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                      "Justice is better than chivalry if we cannot have both."
                      -- Alice Stone Blackwell
                    • Art Plazewski
                      ... that s according to Kozlowski...I m searching... ;-) art
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 14, 2006
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                        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                        <jenne@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > *blink* ?
                        >
                        > Jadwiga is a _scandinavian_ name? At best I thought it was a Polish
                        > version of Hedwig, which I thought was German, not Scandahoovian...
                        >
                        > --
                        > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...


                        that's according to Kozlowski...I'm searching...
                        ;-)
                        art
                      • Rosie
                        ... Two things: 1. She hasn t heard of it before. 2. I don t have appropriate documentation. This seems to require a photocopy of the page a Nawojka is
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 14, 2006
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                          > On what basis is the herald complaining?

                          Two things:
                          1. She hasn't heard of it before.
                          2. I don't have appropriate documentation. This seems to require a
                          photocopy of the page a Nawojka is mentioned on, and her dates; and a
                          photocopy of the title page of the book. Both online sources I have
                          found do actually include the title of the book the info came from,
                          but I'm not sure if the herald noticed that." I didn't the first time
                          I read it. They don't have very specific dates either, "15th century"
                          and "late 15th century. I think she is concerned that Nawojka is a
                          modern spelling. I daresay a birth certificate would do ;)

                          Does anyone know where a person in Central Victoria (Australia) could
                          find records for Poland? Census, that sort of thing?

                          My Guide leaders always told me that challenges were good for me..
                          Rosie
                        • Art Plazewski
                          ... would do ;) ... hmmmmmm...short of writing to the Jagiellonian University library I have no idea...that herald has rather interesting rules....as a native
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 15, 2006
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                            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                            would do ;)
                            >
                            > Does anyone know where a person in Central Victoria (Australia) could
                            > find records for Poland? Census, that sort of thing?
                            >
                            > My Guide leaders always told me that challenges were good for me..
                            > Rosie
                            >



                            hmmmmmm...short of writing to the Jagiellonian University library I
                            have no idea...that herald has rather interesting rules....as a native
                            Pole I can asure you that this is a proper spelling....
                            good luck...

                            ;-)
                            art
                          • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                            ... Contact the Kingdom college of heralds and ask if they can ask on SCA-Heralds for someone who has information about the name. There are a lot of heralds
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 15, 2006
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                              > > Does anyone know where a person in Central Victoria (Australia) could
                              > > find records for Poland? Census, that sort of thing?
                              > >
                              > > My Guide leaders always told me that challenges were good for me..
                              > > Rosie

                              Contact the Kingdom college of heralds and ask if they can ask on
                              SCA-Heralds for someone who has information about the name. There are a
                              lot of heralds all over the world who enjoy poring over reference books
                              in the service of this kind of thing.

                              --
                              -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                              "Justice is better than chivalry if we cannot have both."
                              -- Alice Stone Blackwell
                            • Rebecca Lucas
                              Rosie, How many people on this list are from Lochac is the question! :) There aren t that many of us. Since you are in Lochac, may I suggest you use the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 16, 2006
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                                Rosie,
                                How many people on this list are from Lochac is the question! :)
                                There aren't that many of us.

                                Since you are in Lochac, may I suggest you use the utterly amazing Libraries
                                Australia database (at: http://librariesaustralia.nla.gov.au/ ) for 'Names,
                                Personal -- Polish'. There are quite a few books in interesting places
                                around the country so hopefully there will be some nearby.
                                (If there is anything at Melboure university, Monash university or RMIT at a
                                Melbourne library, I would be able in a few weeks to track down those books
                                for you, but right now I have exams.)

                                E-mail me off list if I can help out with books,
                                Asfridhr, College of St. Barts, Barony of Stormhold, Kingdom of Lochac.

                                Posted by: "Rosie" Rosie_0801@... rosie_0801
                                Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:24 pm (PST)
                                Thanks everyone :)
                                Nope, the herald is not a native Polish speaker. How many native
                                Polish speaking heralds do you think we have here in Lochac?!
                              • quokkaqueen
                                Rosie, Here are two dated examples of Nawojka, although I would try to find sources other than the internet to back them up. Nawojka Koniecpolska, died 1531
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 16, 2006
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                                  Rosie,
                                  Here are two dated examples of Nawojka, although I would try to find
                                  sources other than the internet to back them up.

                                  Nawojka Koniecpolska, died 1531
                                  Nawojka Lang, died 15th century?
                                  Nawojka Kmita, born 15th century?
                                  Nawojka Zaremba, born 15th century?

                                  from: http://genealog.home.pl/gd/szablony/osoba.php?lang=en&id=027832
                                  http://genealog.home.pl/gd/szablony/osoba.php?lang=en&id=026994
                                  http://genealog.home.pl/gd/szablony/osoba.php?lang=en&id=027304
                                  http://genealog.home.pl/gd/szablony/osoba.php?lang=en&id=027011

                                  According to another website, Nawojka Koniecpolska was a 'starost' at
                                  Przemyśl castle, which may be why she's the only one I could find
                                  with a recorded death.

                                  from: http://www.kki.krakow.pl/pioinf/przemysl/dzieje/dzieje1_e.html
                                  definition of starost at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starost

                                  The good news for you, is that you now have a reference point for a
                                  Nawojka who isn't semi-legendary, so you won't have a problem with the
                                  possibility that the only woman in period called Nawojka was a
                                  legendary cross-dressing student. (And since being a cross-dressing
                                  student wouldn't have been something one may want to publicly aspire
                                  to, the name may have had negative connotations.)

                                  The reason why your herald is being so seemingly nasty and harsh is
                                  because she doesn't want you to get so attached to a name, only to not
                                  have enough evidence for it, so it gets returned when you submit it.
                                  It is better to have too much documentation than not enough.

                                  Hope this helps,
                                  Asfridhr

                                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi All,
                                  > I'm hoping someone here has the right kind of thinking cap for this
                                  > job :)
                                  > I'm trying to make an SCA name, and I wanted "Nawojka"

                                  <<snip>>
                                • Rosie
                                  Yay! Thanks to everyone who helped! My local herald is now convinced that Nawojka is a respectable name for SCA Polish persona d chicks :D Now she wants me to
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 25, 2006
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                                    Yay! Thanks to everyone who helped! My local herald is now convinced
                                    that Nawojka is a respectable name for SCA Polish persona'd chicks :D
                                    Now she wants me to find a byname. Erg.. Anyone have documentation for
                                    something short, sweet and lacking in accented letters I can't
                                    pronounce? Krakowa, Krakowska..
                                    How does one find out how city names were spelled 500 years ago anyway?
                                    Rosie

                                    > I'm trying to make an SCA name, and I wanted "Nawojka"
                                  • Ron Jachim
                                    You might take a look at this online store: http://www.polartcenter.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl/SID=1151630185.3410/page=heritage.htm I ve been going to their bricks &
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                      You might take a look at this online store:

                                      http://www.polartcenter.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl/SID=1151630185.3410/page=heritage.htm

                                      I've been going to their bricks & mortar store for many years. There
                                      is a book with maps and town names as of 1772 (prior to the first
                                      partition). Ok, so it's not 500 years old, but it's closer than
                                      National Geographic. There are also books on Polish first names and
                                      Polish last names on that page.

                                      Ron
                                    • Art Plazewski
                                      ... for ... anyway? ... City names are still the same ...they did not change... ;-) art
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jun 30, 2006
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                                        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Yay! Thanks to everyone who helped! My local herald is now convinced
                                        > that Nawojka is a respectable name for SCA Polish persona'd chicks :D
                                        > Now she wants me to find a byname. Erg.. Anyone have documentation
                                        for
                                        > something short, sweet and lacking in accented letters I can't
                                        > pronounce? Krakowa, Krakowska..
                                        > How does one find out how city names were spelled 500 years ago
                                        anyway?
                                        > Rosie
                                        >
                                        > > I'm trying to make an SCA name, and I wanted "Nawojka"
                                        >


                                        City names are still the same ...they did not change...
                                        ;-)
                                        art
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