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Re: Digest Number 144

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  • Bob Markovitch
    ... From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 4:46 AM Subject: [sig] Digest Number 144 ... There s a most excellent book
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 2, 1999
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <sig@onelist.com>
      To: <sig@onelist.com>
      Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 4:46 AM
      Subject: [sig] Digest Number 144



      >
      > The greatest point of contention I meet with Russians vs. Western sources,
      > is that the Western Sources insist that Kiev and Novgorod were established
      > as Swede principalities. All my Russian contacts (except a few druids
      > <g>) disagree. Do you, Predslava (or others of course)have any useful
      > resources or any insight into this issue?
      >
      > In service
      > K.
      >

      There's a most excellent book out recently, EUROPE: A HISTORY, by
      Norman Davies. The author believes that European History in the past has
      given short-shrift to Eastern Europe, and he has pointedly written a massive
      tome to correct that. One of the book's special features is to insert
      framed capsules into the text on various interesting topics. One such
      capsule is on "Rus'." (p.656), and gives an interesting little vignette. . .

      ". . .1749, in St. Petersburg, the imperial historian, Dr. Gerhard
      Muller, rose to read a paper in Latin on 'The Name and Origin of Russia'.
      He was to expound his theory that the ancient Kievan State had been founded
      by Norseman. But he was shouted down; his patriotic Russian audience was
      not willing to hear how Russia had not been founded by Slavs. After an
      official inquiry, Dr. Muller was ordered to abandon the subject and his
      existing publications were destroyed. . . .
      Historians of Russia have been arguing about the 'Normanist' theory
      ever since. Owing to state censorship, Russian history has been subjected
      to a peculiar degree of political interference and teleological argument.
      The story of the Kievan State has been made to serve the interests of modern
      Russian nationalism, or else, in reaction to the Russian version, the
      interests of modern Ukrainian nationalism. It has proved impossible to
      deny, however, that Norsemen were in some way involved. . . ."

      I would hasten to add however, that this excerpt speaks of the
      extended empire-nation of Rus' (or Ruce, as the English seemed to have
      called in in Chaucer's time). The cities themselves were already in
      existence before the Viking/Varangians got there.

      All the Best,

      Svyatoslav Izbornyk
    • Castalia
      ... From: Bob Markovitch ... massive ... . I have tried to find this book in bookstores, and I ve also checked the Net. There are two
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 10, 1999
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bob Markovitch <markovitch@...>

        > There's a most excellent book out recently, EUROPE: A HISTORY, by
        >Norman Davies. The author believes that European History in the past has
        >given short-shrift to Eastern Europe, and he has pointedly written a
        massive
        >tome to correct that. One of the book's special features is to insert
        >framed capsules into the text on various interesting topics. One such
        >capsule is on "Rus'." (p.656), and gives an interesting little vignette. .
        .


        I have tried to find this book in bookstores, and I've also checked the Net.
        There are two books, a Hardcover and a Softcover with a slightly different
        name. Are they the same? Different? Which do you recommend?

        Thank you

        Ksenia
      • Vaclav von Pressburg
        ... . . . ... I have the hard-cover -- I definitely like the book. A good survey of European history that _doesn t_ ignore everything east of France. Warning!
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 11, 1999
          On Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 06:38:31PM -0500, Castalia wrote:
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Bob Markovitch <markovitch@...>
          >
          > > There's a most excellent book out recently, EUROPE: A HISTORY, by
          > >Norman Davies. The author believes that European History in the past has
          . . .
          > I have tried to find this book in bookstores, and I've also checked the Net.
          > There are two books, a Hardcover and a Softcover with a slightly different
          > name. Are they the same? Different? Which do you recommend?

          I have the hard-cover -- I definitely like the book. A good survey of
          European history that _doesn't_ ignore everything east of France.

          Warning! Everyone has biases. Davies is biased in favor of Poland and
          against Russia. He has worked in Poland, speaks Polish, and has a
          Polish wife. Read _everything_ that he says about Poland vs. Russia in
          the light of this bias.

          On a related note: does anyone else get irritated when people misquote
          Corpora transforming:

          ... The era used by the Society as a base for its activities,
          that is, Western culture prior to the beginning of the 17th
          Century ...

          into "Western European culture"?

          Even before I found Davies' book, I've been intending to find the
          time (big chance!) to write an article (for the SCA) covering the
          close cultural and economic connections between "Western Europe"
          and the rest of Europe.

          I attribute this "Western European" attitude to first the extreme
          Anglo-centricity of 19th century American and English history texts,
          and secondly to the cold war, which divided Europe into the noble,
          good "us" (England, France, part of Germany, Italy, etc.) and the
          evil, uncivilized "others" behind the iron curtain. :)

          --
          Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
          vaclav@...
        • Robert J Welenc
          ... *19th* century? Try late-20th century! My high school world history waaay back in the early 70 s meant Western European and after 1066, concentrated
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 11, 1999
            >I attribute this "Western European" attitude to first the extreme
            >Anglo-centricity of 19th century American and English history texts,

            *19th* century? Try late-20th century! My high school "world
            history" waaay back in the early 70's meant "Western European" and
            after 1066, concentrated almost exclusively on English history.
            Other folks like the French or Spanish were mentioned only insofar as
            they came in contact with England and/or had a part to play in the
            history of the US.

            Alanna
            ***********
            Saying of the day:
            It wasn't me! A monkey sat at my keyboard and typed one key per
            second for five years until he got this!
          • vespirus@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxxx
            ... Actually, some of the 19th century texts were quite good. The one I recently received from my grandmother (it was her aunt s text), includes separate
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 12, 1999
              > From: Robert J Welenc <rjwelenc@...>
              >
              > >I attribute this "Western European" attitude to first the extreme
              > >Anglo-centricity of 19th century American and English history texts,

              Actually, some of the 19th century texts were quite good. The one I
              recently received from my grandmother (it was her aunt's text), includes
              separate histories of Scotland, Spain, Persia, Ottoman Empire,
              Austria-Hungary, Italy, and others, along with a lengthy history of
              Russia. The book is organized as separate histories of each country, and
              although the focus is heavily European and American, it is many times
              better than the "histories" we used in school.

              The book was written shortly after the American civil war, and is
              fascinating to read for that reason. No Communism, no World Wars, or any
              of the other topics that seem to be the primary focus of more modern
              histories.

              --Walraven
            • Jenne Heise
              ... Hm... I m up to the middle of his chapter on the Middle of the Middle Ages and haven t found anything I haven t read elsewhere. The only anti-Rus comment
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 13, 1999
                On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Vaclav von Pressburg wrote:
                > Warning! Everyone has biases. Davies is biased in favor of Poland and
                > against Russia. He has worked in Poland, speaks Polish, and has a
                > Polish wife. Read _everything_ that he says about Poland vs. Russia in
                > the light of this bias.

                Hm... I'm up to the middle of his chapter on the Middle of the Middle Ages
                and haven't found anything I haven't read elsewhere. The only anti-Rus
                comment I've noticed was the comment about Russian culture claiming
                Ukrainian and the Ukrainians complaining mightly about it up to the
                present time. He doesn't cover as much Russian as he does, for instance,
                Bulgarian but I thought that was because of th wandering division line
                between Europe and Asia.
                Does it get more biased later on?

                > I attribute this "Western European" attitude to first the extreme
                > Anglo-centricity of 19th century American and English history texts,
                > and secondly to the cold war, which divided Europe into the noble,
                > good "us" (England, France, part of Germany, Italy, etc.) and the
                > evil, uncivilized "others" behind the iron curtain. :)

                I once wrote an essay on the topic of biases in history and the scope of
                the SCA. I'll post it, if you like. (Warning: the article was specifically
                targeting the notion of the SCA as an Anglo-Norman-French-German tournment
                recreation society. Some people have seen it as anti-fighter as a result.)

                Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...

                ".. objections to the evils of political correctness have become a hypocritical
                reflex that lets people justify all kinds of rude behavior while telling
                themselves that they're actually standing up for freedom and values and
                tradition and stuff." -- Phil Agre, Red Rock Eater News Service
              • Jenn/Yana
                ... Yes, please. Even if it isn t about Slavicism directly (but I m guessing it mentions Poland in there somewhere), I m sure we can use it for comparision.
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 13, 1999
                  >I once wrote an essay on the topic of biases in history and the scope of
                  >the SCA. I'll post it, if you like. (Warning: the article was specifically
                  >targeting the notion of the SCA as an Anglo-Norman-French-German tournment
                  >recreation society. Some people have seen it as anti-fighter as a result.)
                  >
                  >Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...

                  Yes, please. Even if it isn't about Slavicism directly (but I'm guessing
                  it mentions Poland in there somewhere), I'm sure we can use it for comparision.

                  --Yana
                • Jenne Heise
                  ... *grin* Yup, it mentions Poland just a little bit.. Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@tulgey.browser.net disclaimer: i speak for no-one and
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 13, 1999
                    On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Jenn/Yana wrote:
                    > >I once wrote an essay on the topic of biases in history and the scope of
                    > >the SCA. I'll post it, if you like. (Warning: the article was specifically
                    > >targeting the notion of the SCA as an Anglo-Norman-French-German tournment
                    > >recreation society. Some people have seen it as anti-fighter as a result.)
                    > >Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                    >
                    > Yes, please. Even if it isn't about Slavicism directly (but I'm guessing
                    > it mentions Poland in there somewhere), I'm sure we can use it for comparision.
                    >
                    *grin* Yup, it mentions Poland just a little bit..

                    Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                    disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...

                    ".. objections to the evils of political correctness have become a hypocritical
                    reflex that lets people justify all kinds of rude behavior while telling
                    themselves that they're actually standing up for freedom and values and
                    tradition and stuff." -- Phil Agre, Red Rock Eater News Service
                  • Katheryne of Krings Keep
                    ... ... What is the title of this wonderous book?? Katheryne
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 13, 1999
                      > > From: Robert J Welenc <rjwelenc@...>
                      > >
                      > > >I attribute this "Western European" attitude to first the extreme
                      > > >Anglo-centricity of 19th century American and English history texts,
                      >
                      >Actually, some of the 19th century texts were quite good. The one I
                      >recently received from my grandmother (it was her aunt's text), includes
                      >separate histories of Scotland, Spain, Persia, Ottoman Empire,
                      >Austria-Hungary, Italy, and others, along with a lengthy history of
                      >Russia.

                      <snip>

                      >--Walraven
                      >

                      What is the title of this wonderous book??

                      Katheryne
                    • Vaclav von Pressburg
                      ... Yes, please post it. -- Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos vaclav@bermls.oau.org
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 13, 1999
                        On Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 01:59:45PM -0500, Jenne Heise wrote:
                        > I once wrote an essay on the topic of biases in history and the scope of
                        > the SCA. I'll post it, if you like. (Warning: the article was specifically
                        > targeting the notion of the SCA as an Anglo-Norman-French-German tournment
                        > recreation society. Some people have seen it as anti-fighter as a result.)

                        Yes, please post it.

                        --
                        Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                        vaclav@...
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