Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

religion in the SCA (was Re: kvas revisited)

Expand Messages
  • Jenn Ridley
    Ksenia wrote: Kseenai ... Pardon me?!? You mean to tell me that understanding, even on the most superficial level, the differences between modern Christianity
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 2, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      Ksenia wrote:
      Kseenai


      >Predschka exhorted:
      >>To my knowledge, there are *no* *direct* data on Russian paganism, only
      >>indirect information and speculation. I might have gone that way, but there
      >>really is *not enough* info on pre-Christian religion in Russia to use in
      >>persona play. And so much to learn and understand about Orthodox Christianity
      >>in Russia.

      >I will not comment on religion on a list because it is not appropriate to the SCA.

      Pardon me?!? You mean to tell me that understanding, even on the most
      superficial level, the differences between modern Christianity and the
      religions that our personas were living is *not* SCA related??

      You had better rethink that position. It's like saying that a person
      with an Oriental persona shouldn't know anything about the Tao, or
      Buddha or Shinto (depending on the country and era). Would you say
      that a Crusader persona shouldn't know anything about the Church s/he
      is Crusading for, since it's not SCA appropriate?

      Icons are not a part of my daily life. Neither is Daily Mass, or
      Buddhist meditation. That doesn't mean that I should just ignore them
      even if it is persona appropriate.

      In most of the SCA era, religion was very important to people
      *everywhere*, and refusing to learn about the religion that your
      persona is living in is being very superficial in your persona
      development.

      I grew up in a half Orthodox household, and the differences in the
      mindsets between Mom and Dad were pretty obvious, and this was in the
      20th century. If protestant christian religions and Orthodox
      christian religions are so different in the modern era (when they are
      both existing in the same secular world), imagine what the difference
      between modern religion and the Medieval Orthodoxy is.

      >However, I do *love* the Kremlin. But I got iconed to death in Moscow and
      >after a while couldn't take it anymore.

      OK, I see... you feel uncomfortable with it. Therefore it's
      inappropriate.

      /sarcasm on
      But ooooh....Pagans...now there's something *interesting*.
      /sarcasm off

      Never mind that Orthodox Christianity has enough real history to
      fascinate a person for years; never mind that the differences between
      orthodox Christianity and modern christianity are deep (perhaps not
      very wide, but still go back century upon century); never mind that
      all we have on russian paganism is folk tales and speculation.

      Unlike in the west, where the missionaries appropriated western
      traditions/celebrations as they found expedient, and thus preserved
      some of the features of the extant religions, Orthodoxy (especially in
      period Rus') was just plopped down on top of the extant religions and
      eventually smashed them. And unlike in Rome, where the pre-christian
      religions were remembered because they were written down, the
      pre-christian religions in most slavic regions were not written down,
      and the church scholars were not about to give them more standing by
      writing about them (except in writing against them).

      Note that I am not saying that pre-christian religions did not exist
      in the area, just that there is no evidence as to what they were.

      knowledge is good. just don't pass up the stuff that's really true in
      favor of the stuff that you wish was true.

      stasia
      (off my soapbox)
      Anastasia Ivgenova
      jenn.ridley@...
    • Jenne Heise
      ... [snip] ... Before you whip out the soapbox, try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Not commenting on religion in a list may not be about what s
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 2, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Jenn Ridley wrote:
        > >I will not comment on religion on a list because it is not appropriate to the SCA.
        >
        > Pardon me?!? You mean to tell me that understanding, even on the most
        > superficial level, the differences between modern Christianity and the
        > religions that our personas were living is *not* SCA related??

        [snip]
        > knowledge is good. just don't pass up the stuff that's really true in
        > favor of the stuff that you wish was true.

        Before you whip out the soapbox, try to give people the benefit of the
        doubt. Not commenting on religion in a list may not be about 'what's
        interesting' but about not offending people or starting flamewars. (Policy
        #6 has a lot to answer for. Some people genuinely overinterpret it to mean
        that you cannot discuss religion in the SCA or have a religious persona.)

        (I will point out that the last time this was discussed, some remarks were
        made about those who choose to have pagan personas as well as modern
        pagans, and the person may well be trying to avoid a flamewar.)

        Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
        disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...

        ".. objections to the evils of political correctness have become a hypocritical
        reflex that lets people justify all kinds of rude behavior while telling
        themselves that they're actually standing up for freedom and values and
        tradition and stuff." -- Phil Agre, Red Rock Eater News Service
      • Castalia
        Greetings. ... the SCA. ... My persona is Orthodox and deeply so. I wasn t concerened about the superficial level, but the deeper levels. I apologise that I
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 2, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          Greetings.

          >>I will not comment on religion on a list because it is not appropriate to
          the SCA.
          >
          >Pardon me?!? You mean to tell me that understanding, even on the most
          >superficial level, the differences between modern Christianity and the
          >religions that our personas were living is *not* SCA related??


          My persona is Orthodox and deeply so. I wasn't concerened about the
          superficial level, but the deeper levels. I apologise that I find it
          difficult to disuss religion on a superficial level.

          >You had better rethink that position. It's like saying that a person
          >with an Oriental persona shouldn't know anything about the Tao, or
          >Buddha or Shinto (depending on the country and era).

          I don't believe I said that a person shouldn't know about the religions of
          their period culture. I'm just saying that I gave my superficial comments
          already, and prefer to take the more substantial ones off list. Including
          my joyous religious experiences inside the Kremlin Churches, or at Sergiev
          Posad.

          Or the senses of wonder and mystery at the Church sacred to the Russian Navy
          in Petersburg.

          Would you say
          >that a Crusader persona shouldn't know anything about the Church s/he
          >is Crusading for, since it's not SCA appropriate?


          History is excellent. I suppose that I felt less like commenting on Pagan
          history on the list.

          >Icons are not a part of my daily life. Neither is Daily Mass, or
          >Buddhist meditation. That doesn't mean that I should just ignore them
          >even if it is persona appropriate.


          I have icons in my home. They are treasures to me, and spiritually
          significant. I'd just prefer to comment off list unless it's relevant.
          Perhaps I misjudged what is relevant, because I only going on past years of
          SCA experience.



          >>However, I do *love* the Kremlin. But I got iconed to death in Moscow and
          >>after a while couldn't take it anymore.
          >
          >OK, I see... you feel uncomfortable with it. Therefore it's
          >inappropriate.


          In Leningrad, I went to a number of churches and saw perhaps two hundred
          Icons. then I went to Moscow. I went to the New Church downtown that was
          once a swimming pool. Old Church, new Church and modern icons. I went to
          the Kremlin and saw hundreds and hundred of icons. We went to Sergiev Posad
          and in 35 degree centegrade saw very many old church icons.

          My sig oth. turned to me and said: tomorrow we will go to ******* he said
          "There are many icons there." I said, please, no more icons. Not this
          weekend.


          >/sarcasm on
          >But ooooh....Pagans...now there's something *interesting*.
          >/sarcasm off


          I answered direct questions. And suggested I take it off-list. Twas not
          meant to offend you or others.


          >Never mind that Orthodox Christianity has enough real history to
          >fascinate a person for years;

          History is good.

          never mind that the differences between
          >orthodox Christianity and modern christianity are deep (perhaps not
          >very wide, but still go back century upon century); never mind that
          >all we have on russian paganism is folk tales and speculation.


          Was this still directed at me? Or others.

          I'd certainly be very interesting in your knowledge about the differences
          between old church and new church of Russian Othodox, either on list or off.


          Respectfully yours,
          K.
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.