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RE : [sig] request for help

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  • L.M. Kies
    For late period, I would recommend looking at Eugenia Tolmachoff s article on court costume: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/articles/nb51_cos.pdf
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 25 3:42 PM
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      For late period, I would recommend looking at Eugenia Tolmachoff's article on court costume:

      http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/articles/nb51_cos.pdf

      For mid period, try the 15th Century Novgorod Merchant's Wife article:

      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanWoman.html

      I converted a mundane wool coat into something Russian-looking, so if you have specific questions, please feel free. 

      One problem is that "all" Russian coats hide the fur inside - so most of your mink won't show.  Almost a waste, really.

      Sofya la Rus

      ------- Original Message -------
      >I have procured a full length mink
      >coat and would like to make a mid-late period Russian winter coat. I have
      >no idea where to begin my research or how to make or where to purchase the
      >pattern. If any idea, suggestions or help would be appreciated. I also
      >have a white rabbit coat that I would like to make something with that I
      >don't know what to do with. Any help would be very appreciated.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tim Nalley
      Actually, I ve converted 4 fur coats into period shubas and taught a class in the same at Pennsic twice...I could send you a copy of my class manual and answer
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 26 7:19 AM
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        Actually, I've converted 4 fur coats into period
        shubas and taught a class in the same at Pennsic
        twice...I could send you a copy of my class manual and
        answer any questions that you have? If so, I bet
        theres very little that Soraya, Anastasiia or Sofya
        can't answer....feel free to ask! BTW, I love my shuba
        an I am currently starting to also convert a "mink"
        coat into a shuba for my lady. It started out life as
        a group of muskrats but that was very popular in the
        40's and 50's when most of these coats first started
        hanging in Gandma/Aunt Ethel/ etc. closet.

        --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

        > For late period, I would recommend looking at
        > Eugenia Tolmachoff's article on court costume:
        >
        >
        http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/articles/nb51_cos.pdf
        >
        > For mid period, try the 15th Century Novgorod
        > Merchant's Wife article:
        >
        >
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanWoman.html
        >
        > I converted a mundane wool coat into something
        > Russian-looking, so if you have specific questions,
        > please feel free. 
        >
        > One problem is that "all" Russian coats hide
        > the fur inside - so most of your mink
        > won't show.  Almost a waste, really.
        >
        > Sofya la Rus
        >
        > ------- Original Message -------
        > >I have procured a full length mink
        > >coat and would like to make a mid-late period
        > Russian winter coat. I have
        > >no idea where to begin my research or how to make
        > or where to purchase the
        > >pattern. If any idea, suggestions or help would be
        > appreciated. I also
        > >have a white rabbit coat that I would like to make
        > something with that I
        > >don't know what to do with. Any help would be very
        > appreciated.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >


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      • Rick Orli
        Yes, you don t see the fur, much, but it is so not-period and so modern to have a bit of fur decoration on the edge. False to the spirit, to the core. not
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 26 9:47 AM
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          Yes, you don't see the fur, much, but it is so not-period and so
          modern to have a bit of fur decoration on the edge. False to the
          spirit, to the core. not that I would have put it past any tailor in
          any fashion era to do a trick of any sort for looks, but generally in
          the pre-central-heating and travel-by-horseback-or-foot 16th-17th C.
          they were rather interested in staying warm.

          Do you have an opinion on this? : I also started a fur coat
          conversion a couple of years ago. I decided, since the fur
          (muskrat?) was fairly thick, to leave the armpit area with just a
          cloth lining. If I had a thin/light fur such as ermine I probabally
          would not have done that, but with what I had it just seemed I would
          have bulk where it would not belong. Maybe I cold have trimmed the
          fur. I wish I knew if that was a legit strategy. My guess from the
          actual fur lined garments (mostly turkish kaftans) I have seen was
          that they were fully lined, but I could not inspect them that
          closely, and anyway they were ususally super-high-end stuff with
          ermine or whatnot.

          -Rick
          > > One problem is that "all" Russian coats hide
          > > the fur inside - so most of your mink
          > > won't show.  Almost a waste, really.
          > >
          > > Sofya la Rus
          > >
          > > ------- Original Message -------
          > > >I have procured a full length mink
          > > >coat and would like to make a mid-late period
          > > Russian winter coat. I have
          > > >no idea where to begin my research or how to make
          > > or where to purchase the
          > > >pattern. If any idea, suggestions or help would be
          > > appreciated. I also
          > > >have a white rabbit coat that I would like to make
          > > something with that I
          > > >don't know what to do with. Any help would be very
          > > appreciated.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > > removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
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        • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
          The Topkapi Turkish Coats that were on display with the Style and Status exhibit showed some linings (though most were worn away) that were either 1) fully
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 26 9:59 AM
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            The Topkapi Turkish Coats that were on display with the "Style and Status"
            exhibit showed some linings (though most were worn away) that were either 1)
            fully lined or 2) just the edges inside. So you would have seen a bit of
            fun peaking at the collar and the front closures of the coat. The most fur
            I tend to wear is my little fur cap as kinda seen in Sofyia's drawings. It
            was a hand me down from my grandmother and looks very rus in our warm
            Arizona winters.

            I was also given the mink car cape and have been toying with the idea of
            converting it to a liner but it is so nicely made...and its rather warm here
            too.

            Posadnitsa Ianuk
          • Tim Nalley
            I love fur, I have many garments with fur on them,but I m a Russian , which compliments being Irish with a disturbing ease.....these are the basics for
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 26 10:58 AM
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              I love fur, I have many garments with fur on them,but
              I'm a "Russian", which compliments being Irish with a
              disturbing ease.....these are the basics for furlined
              garments.

              Rule #1:
              Water based animals have more oil in their fur and
              hide to deal with water and repelling it. That's
              important when you consider the fact that most of the
              fur items on eBay are straight out of a closet where
              they have been residing since the 1940s and 1950s,
              drying out in the heat in the winter and being
              desicated for moisture all summer in central air or
              the heat of July and August. Land based fur like fox,
              rabbit, ermine, etc. needs to be reinforced with
              heat-bond and cheap cotton fabric to glue the hair
              follicles in place and add structure to dry leather.
              Moisturizing it just accelerates the shredding effect
              faster.

              Rule #2:
              Ridges where your have whip stitched the pieces
              together that will show through on the covering
              fabric. Use your fingers to push the fur away from the
              edges when you are sewing so its leather on leather.
              Use a comb afterwards to combine the fur follicles of
              the two pieces for a smooth surface.
              Your can pull this welt flatter and heavy brocade
              or coat weight wool won't show it as much, but silks,
              lighter brocades, velvet, linen, lighter wools, etc.
              will show it and look horrible. You can sew strips of
              fabric over them before putting the cloth shell over
              them or your can do a layer of thick fabric as a shell
              over all the outside and pin or sew it in place with a
              long basting stitch, which is exactly what furriers
              still do, use a basting stitch that is. I use craft
              felt because its thick, lightweight, partially
              synthethic so it keeps its shape and is cheap.

              Rule #3:
              Armpits. Lower the armpit or have unlined sleeves
              like the Turks and Poles were commonly doing. Does
              Bathory's delia sleeves look lined? Or put a gusset
              diamond in the armpit to lower it and widen the chest.


              Rule #4:
              Short napped furs like muskrat and mink are less
              bulky than raccoon, more available and cheaper. I put
              low bids in on fur coats on eBay till I eventually won
              two. My Turkish shuba is lined with size 10 and size
              12 coon coats but it has wide sleeves and is floor
              length. It also weighs ten pounds but is actually
              light to wear. Beaver would also be heavy. BTW, I am a
              5'10" 180# male.

              Rule #5:
              Use a utility razor blade to cut the fur on the
              leather side, with the grain of the fur and NEVER FLAT
              on a table. Pin one end unde a foot, knee or leg and
              hold the other end up instead. You can get packs of
              100 utility one edge razors for $4 at a hardwear
              store.

              Those are the basics. I never ever use land based furs
              for anything other that trim on low wear edges, hats
              or collars.
              'dok


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            • Anthony Bryant
              ... Hey, guy! How the heck ya doin ? Got a Q for you on shuba-fication. Lined shuba are a well and good for colder weather and wintery events -- but what about
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 27 1:06 PM
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                'doc wrote:

                > Actually, I've converted 4 fur coats into period
                > shubas and taught a class in the same at Pennsic
                > twice...I could send you a copy of my class manual and
                > answer any questions that you have? If so, I bet
                > theres very little that Soraya, Anastasiia or Sofya
                > can't answer....feel free to ask! BTW, I love my shuba
                > an I am currently starting to also convert a "mink"
                > coat into a shuba for my lady. It started out life as
                > a group of muskrats but that was very popular in the
                > 40's and 50's when most of these coats first started
                > hanging in Gandma/Aunt Ethel/ etc. closet.


                Hey, guy! How the heck ya doin'?

                Got a Q for you on shuba-fication. Lined shuba are a well
                and good for colder weather and wintery events -- but what
                about Pennsic? It's hell trying to do cold-weather-people
                garb for a hot-weather-people place.

                Of course, on Pennsic *evenings* all bets are off and a
                lined shuba would be spiff...

                Effingham
                --

                Anthony J. Bryant
                Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
                http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
              • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
                Living in AZ I tend to use linen and tropical weight wool which I have taken to pennsic and just adored. Though I probably wouldn t do the fur since it
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 27 1:40 PM
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                  Living in AZ I tend to use linen and tropical weight wool which I have taken
                  to pennsic and just adored. Though I probably wouldn't do the fur since it
                  doesn't "breath" like wool and well, we usually go to pennsic by airplane
                  and that is a lot of bulk. If you want to try it I would say use a light
                  weight, but sturdy, fabric for the exterior.

                  Posadnitsa Ianuk
                • Rick Orli
                  I beg to differ, none of the S&S coats were fur just the edges inside !!! And let me add a few more !!!!!!!!!!! for good measure. They just did not do that.
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 27 1:59 PM
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                    I beg to differ, none of the S&S coats were fur "just the edges
                    inside"!!!
                    And let me add a few more !!!!!!!!!!! for good measure. They just did
                    not do that.
                    and none of the linings were 'worn away".
                    http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/OttomanPatterns.htm
                    has my drawings and notes.
                    -Rick
                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > The Topkapi Turkish Coats that were on display with the "Style and
                    Status"
                    > exhibit showed some linings (though most were worn away) that were
                    either 1)
                    > fully lined or 2) just the edges inside. So you would have seen a
                    bit of
                    > fun peaking at the collar and the front closures of the coat.
                  • Sfandra
                    ... Not remotely Dok (but aiming for his level of garb-spiffiness) :D but tossing in 2 rubles... I have found that even three layers of linen has been fine
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 27 2:00 PM
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                      > Got a Q for you on shuba-fication. Lined shuba are a
                      > well and good for colder weather and wintery
                      >events -- but what about Pennsic? It's hell trying to
                      >do cold-weather-people
                      > garb for a hot-weather-people place.

                      Not remotely 'Dok (but aiming for his level of
                      garb-spiffiness) :D but tossing in 2 rubles...

                      I have found that even three layers of linen has been
                      fine for hot HOT weather. GNEW in the East last year
                      was Obscenely Hot, and I hung out in the sun on the
                      archery field for hours in 3 layers of linen,
                      longsleeved and all. Plus headgear (povoinik and straw
                      hat). From my reading, Shubas do not necessarily
                      have to be fur lined. The trick is Natural Fibers.
                      Lightweight linen breaths really really nicely. A
                      simple shirt under a linen, linen-lined Shuba,
                      assuming the linen is lightweight, should be fine.
                      [Disclaimer: I personally am pretty good w/ extremes
                      of temperature, in general]

                      --Sfandra



                      ******************
                      Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                      Kingdom of the East
                      ******************
                      Never 'pearl' your butt.

                      __________________________________________________
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                    • Tim Nalley
                      Hi There! It has been a while! I usually do Turkish with a fur edged coat, complete with inner lining down the front! I m helping a local guy do one right now!
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 27 2:03 PM
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                        Hi There! It has been a while! I usually do Turkish
                        with a fur edged coat, complete with inner lining down
                        the front! I'm helping a local guy do one right now!
                        So, lets catch up offlist.....I've got w wild tale
                        for you, my friend!
                        'dok

                        --- Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:

                        > 'doc wrote:
                        >
                        > > Actually, I've converted 4 fur coats into period
                        > > shubas and taught a class in the same at Pennsic
                        > > twice...I could send you a copy of my class manual
                        > and
                        > > answer any questions that you have? If so, I bet
                        > > theres very little that Soraya, Anastasiia or
                        > Sofya
                        > > can't answer....feel free to ask! BTW, I love my
                        > shuba
                        > > an I am currently starting to also convert a
                        > "mink"
                        > > coat into a shuba for my lady. It started out life
                        > as
                        > > a group of muskrats but that was very popular in
                        > the
                        > > 40's and 50's when most of these coats first
                        > started
                        > > hanging in Gandma/Aunt Ethel/ etc. closet.
                        >
                        >
                        > Hey, guy! How the heck ya doin'?
                        >
                        > Got a Q for you on shuba-fication. Lined shuba are a
                        > well
                        > and good for colder weather and wintery events --
                        > but what
                        > about Pennsic? It's hell trying to do
                        > cold-weather-people
                        > garb for a hot-weather-people place.
                        >
                        > Of course, on Pennsic *evenings* all bets are off
                        > and a
                        > lined shuba would be spiff...
                        >
                        > Effingham
                        > --
                        >
                        > Anthony J. Bryant
                        > Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
                        >
                        > Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                        > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
                        >
                        > All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
                        > http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
                        Wow, thanks for the dress down, I m glad chivalry is not dead. The coat I was specifiacally talking about you have photographs of (oh, naughty you for
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 27 2:37 PM
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                          Wow, thanks for the dress down, I'm glad chivalry is not dead.

                          The coat I was specifiacally talking about you have photographs of (oh,
                          naughty you for photographing a moving exhibit). The underside did not show
                          any fur more than a few inches past the openings and my statement of "worn
                          away" was meant to say that is what it looked like, even your pictures show
                          the "patches" of fur. Admittedly, I'm sure the preservation of the coat
                          probably did nothing to help the fur but it did not in my opinion look to be
                          fully lined in fur. Though most things with museum exhibits are open to
                          interpretation since they can't please everyone. I will have look at the
                          discussion of the coat in the IPEK book to see.

                          Posadnitsa Ianuk
                        • LL Rice
                          Lady Apollonia Voss, apprentice to Her Excellency Mistress Brianna Wynman (The Crafty Fox), member of the Black Dragon Mercenary Company and resident of the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 28 6:29 PM
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                            Lady Apollonia Voss, apprentice to Her Excellency Mistress Brianna Wynman
                            (The Crafty Fox), member of the Black Dragon Mercenary Company and resident
                            of the Shire of Owlsherste in the Kingdom of the East bids you all greetings
                            and good health. IOW, "hi" from Apollonia. ;-)



                            I'm, "here" as I am becoming quite drawn to early Russian clothing. I made
                            my first hat a few weeks ago
                            (http://userweb.suscom.net/~apolloniavoss/projects/russianhat.htm.)



                            Honestly, I'm trying to find good documentation for 10th century Byzantine,
                            Russian and Frankish clothing and the connections between the cultures and
                            am having little luck. Earlier eras for Byzantine "daily life" goods, are
                            easy to find but the 10th century is tough. I'm not finding ANYTHING
                            related to Frankish daily life, but did find Sofya la Rus's work on Early
                            Russian clothing, headwear etc.



                            I'm at the beginning of the research and will hold questions until I've
                            thoroughly rummaged the freesever site and the group's archives.









                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Rick Orli
                            Sorry, but this is a persistent and serious misconception and it needs to be driven into oblivion without weenie-wording. I really don t mind if people want
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 30 10:07 PM
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                              Sorry, but this is a persistent and serious misconception and it
                              needs to be driven into oblivion without weenie-wording. I really
                              don't mind if people want to decorate their SCA garb with fur edging
                              but please let's not pretend that is how period garments were
                              constructed. Without exception there are no 'patches' of fur and the
                              garment in question and all the garments with fur visible anywhere
                              are fully fur lined. Saying " did not show any fur more than a few
                              inches past the openings" may be literally true because of how the
                              garment was displayed but readers may misread your statement to mean
                              that you saw that the fur ended a few inches past the edge, which
                              you certainly did not.

                              I have asked the curator several specific questions, but the answer
                              to this one seems too obvious to call her about. Maybe if I have
                              some other questions I'll also ask her if she ever saw deco-fur
                              edging on an ottoman garment.

                              While I allowed in an earlier post that maybe under some exceptional
                              circumstances a tailor might do a fake, and even recognize that all
                              fur colpacks are not fully fur lined which is sort of a fake, the
                              idea that robes that the Sultan might wear to a battlefield would
                              use this sort of flash trick is laughable.

                              Please remember that pre-20th C. people who went out-of-doors were
                              really no-kidding outside, with no hotels to bail to or even heated
                              restrooms to go to. If it got cold it got cold. I absolutely reject
                              any suggestion that these were all some sort of pajama suit and
                              smoking jacket combo, that could be impractical and false-to-
                              putative-function. I feel confident in suggesting that the sultan
                              always wanted to be perceived as a military leader, not a faker, so
                              beneath the pearls and gold you would always find a fully functional
                              garment.


                              -Rick

                              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
                              wrote:
                              The underside did not show
                              > any fur more than a few inches past the openings and my statement
                              of "worn
                              > away" was meant to say that is what it looked like, even your
                              pictures show
                              > the "patches" of fur. Admittedly, I'm sure the preservation of
                              the coat
                              > probably did nothing to help the fur but it did not in my opinion
                              look to be
                              > fully lined in fur. Though most things with museum exhibits are
                              open to
                              > interpretation since they can't please everyone. I will have look
                              at the
                              > discussion of the coat in the IPEK book to see.
                              >
                              > Posadnitsa Ianuk
                              >
                            • Sfandra
                              Anyone going? I will be there. --Sfandra Dmitrieva ****************** Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova Kingdom of the East ****************** Never pearl
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 1, 2006
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                                Anyone going? I will be there.

                                --Sfandra Dmitrieva


                                ******************
                                Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                                Kingdom of the East
                                ******************
                                Never 'pearl' your butt.

                                __________________________________________________
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                              • Patrick Levesque
                                I ll be in the kitchen, taking care that you re all well fed (hopefully ... This will not be an Eastern European feast, however. Petru
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 1, 2006
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                                  I'll be in the kitchen, taking care that you're all well fed (hopefully
                                  :-)))

                                  This will not be an Eastern European feast, however.

                                  Petru

                                  On 01/05/06 12:52, "Sfandra" <seonaid13@...> wrote:

                                  > Anyone going? I will be there.
                                  >
                                  > --Sfandra Dmitrieva
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ******************
                                  > Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                                  > Kingdom of the East
                                  > ******************
                                  > Never 'pearl' your butt.
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________________________
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                                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                • Tim Nalley
                                  That s a real mouthful......have you checked out: SCAbyzantine@yahoogroups.com Mordok from the MK, Moscovite Russian ...
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 2, 2006
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                                    That's a real mouthful......have you checked out:
                                    SCAbyzantine@yahoogroups.com

                                    Mordok from the MK, Moscovite Russian

                                    --- LL Rice <apolloniavoss@...> wrote:

                                    > Lady Apollonia Voss, apprentice to Her Excellency
                                    > Mistress Brianna Wynman
                                    > (The Crafty Fox), member of the Black Dragon
                                    > Mercenary Company and resident
                                    > of the Shire of Owlsherste in the Kingdom of the
                                    > East bids you all greetings
                                    > and good health. IOW, "hi" from Apollonia. ;-)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'm, "here" as I am becoming quite drawn to early
                                    > Russian clothing. I made
                                    > my first hat a few weeks ago
                                    >
                                    (http://userweb.suscom.net/~apolloniavoss/projects/russianhat.htm.)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Honestly, I'm trying to find good documentation for
                                    > 10th century Byzantine,
                                    > Russian and Frankish clothing and the connections
                                    > between the cultures and
                                    > am having little luck. Earlier eras for Byzantine
                                    > "daily life" goods, are
                                    > easy to find but the 10th century is tough. I'm not
                                    > finding ANYTHING
                                    > related to Frankish daily life, but did find Sofya
                                    > la Rus's work on Early
                                    > Russian clothing, headwear etc.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'm at the beginning of the research and will hold
                                    > questions until I've
                                    > thoroughly rummaged the freesever site and the
                                    > group's archives.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    > removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


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                                  • analog4kid
                                    Of course. I haven t missed an Eastern Crown since...well...let s just say it was a while ago :) Jan
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 2, 2006
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                                      Of course. I haven't missed an Eastern Crown since...well...let's
                                      just say it was a while ago :)

                                      Jan

                                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Anyone going? I will be there.
                                      >
                                      > --Sfandra Dmitrieva
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