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RE: RE : [sig] Sofya, Underthings site proposal

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  • Stephanie Ross
    WELL DONE SOFYA!!! Thank you again. I can t wait for the female webpage! Nadya Well, my watch today was rewarded with a thick package from Mordak! For those
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 28, 2006
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      WELL DONE SOFYA!!! Thank you again. I can't wait for the female webpage!

      Nadya


      Well, my "watch" today was rewarded with a thick package from Mordak!

      For those of you who have been waiting so patiently:

      A Merchant of 15th Century Novgorod
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html

      The html code is slightly off in a couple of places, but I'm too tired to fix it.  Please let me know if you find any serious problems.

      I plan to have the article on the Merchant's Wife finished tomorrow.

      In Service,
      Sofya la Rus

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
      Greetings! ... damn. This is not the source, just the assumption that those pants could be underpants, and the fact that in 19 century Russia the peasants
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 28, 2006
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        Greetings!


        > Well, my "watch" today was rewarded with a thick package from Mordak!
        >
        > For those of you who have been waiting so patiently:
        >
        > A Merchant of 15th Century Novgorod
        > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html
        >

        damn.
        This is not the source, just the assumption that those pants could be underpants, and the fact that in 19 century Russia the peasants' underpants and the "coffin wear" was made by about same pattern. The fact is that in the tradition the icon was made, the persons in the icon used to wear one pair of thin fabric pants just like those - so the picture shows just people who were stripped of their _shirts_, remaining in the pants. Anyway, no difference between underpants and upperpants (narrow ones, not the Sharovary) pattern never existed. Same pattern, same length, same fixation on the waist.

        Thus, the main underwear idea of this very reconstruction: underpants must have been of the same pattern as the upperpants, just following the idea of wearing several tunics in cold wear in the Ancient Rome.

        Bye,
        Alex.
      • Tim Nalley
        So, I have a question that has nagged me.....I use old T-shirts as undershirts because their comfortable and I get more use out of them even if they are
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 1, 2006
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          So, I have a question that has nagged me.....I use
          old T-shirts as undershirts because their comfortable
          and I get more use out of them even if they are
          threadbare. I also do that with my old tunics and
          pants in the SCA, have for years actually.
          Maybe I'm just a cheapass but in period the cloth
          was much more expensive than now and before deoderant
          a "dirty" shirt under the nicer "Clean" shirt was
          pretty standard.
          So, maybe underwear in period really is old pants
          and old shirts, cut shorter and recycled for more use
          and a good periodic boiling?
          Just a theory!
          'dok

          --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
          wrote:

          >
          > Greetings!
          >
          >
          > > Well, my "watch" today was rewarded with a thick
          > package from Mordak!
          > >
          > > For those of you who have been waiting so
          > patiently:
          > >
          > > A Merchant of 15th Century Novgorod
          > >
          >
          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html
          > >
          >
          > damn.
          > This is not the source, just the assumption that
          > those pants could be underpants, and the fact that
          > in 19 century Russia the peasants' underpants and
          > the "coffin wear" was made by about same pattern.
          > The fact is that in the tradition the icon was made,
          > the persons in the icon used to wear one pair of
          > thin fabric pants just like those - so the picture
          > shows just people who were stripped of their
          > _shirts_, remaining in the pants. Anyway, no
          > difference between underpants and upperpants (narrow
          > ones, not the Sharovary) pattern never existed. Same
          > pattern, same length, same fixation on the waist.
          >
          > Thus, the main underwear idea of this very
          > reconstruction: underpants must have been of the
          > same pattern as the upperpants, just following the
          > idea of wearing several tunics in cold wear in the
          > Ancient Rome.
          >
          > Bye,
          > Alex.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > sig-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • Sfandra
          Right. Sofya, you rock. This is EXACTLY the images I was thinking of when I questioned underthings . Now, would a logical assumption be that woman wore the
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 1, 2006
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            Right.
            Sofya, you rock. This is EXACTLY the images I was
            thinking of when I questioned 'underthings'.

            Now, would a logical assumption be that woman wore the
            same sort of underthings as men?

            --Sfandra



            --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
            > A Merchant of 15th Century Novgorod
            >
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html
            >


            ******************
            Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
            Kingdom of the East
            ******************
            Never 'pearl' your butt.

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          • jennifer knox
            At least in the 10th century they did, that book i mentioned earlier ( von china nach byzanz ) has pictures of pants belonging either to women or men . I
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 1, 2006
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              At least in the 10th century they did, that book i mentioned earlier ('von china nach byzanz') has pictures of pants 'belonging either to women or men'. I cant imagine that women were wearing them over their dresses :-). can i send attachments over this list or would i have to send it to a private email address?
              and that web page *does* rock!
              anya

              Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

              Now, would a logical assumption be that woman wore the
              same sort of underthings as men?

              --Sfandra



              --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
              > A Merchant of 15th Century Novgorod
              >
              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html
              >


              ******************
              Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
              Kingdom of the East
              ******************
              Never 'pearl' your butt.

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            • Kseniia Smolnianina
              Post them to the SIG yahoogroup! Please? :) --Kseniia ... -- ********************************** Lady Kseniia Smolnianina Barony of Three Mountains Kingdom of
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 1, 2006
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                Post them to the SIG yahoogroup! Please? :)

                --Kseniia

                On 3/1/06, jennifer knox <jeniferknox@...> wrote:
                > At least in the 10th century they did, that book i mentioned earlier ('von china nach byzanz') has pictures of pants 'belonging either to women or men'. I cant imagine that women were wearing them over their dresses :-). can i send attachments over this list or would i have to send it to a private email address?
                > and that web page *does* rock!
                > anya
                >
                > Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
                >
                > Now, would a logical assumption be that woman wore the
                > same sort of underthings as men?
                >
                > --Sfandra
                >
                >
                >
                > --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
                > > A Merchant of 15th Century Novgorod
                > >
                > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html
                > >
                >
                >
                > ******************
                > Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                > Kingdom of the East
                > ******************
                > Never 'pearl' your butt.
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                >
                > Visit your group "sig" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > sig-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > "Speak softly and carry a big stick" -- Teddy Roosevelt
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                **********************************
                Lady Kseniia Smolnianina
                Barony of Three Mountains
                Kingdom of An Tir
                http://kseniia_antir.livejournal.com
                *Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes*
              • Sfandra
                OK, so we ve established the bottom half. Warning for Gentlemen: Discussion of female-specifics ahead! For ladies, what about the top half? Roman garments
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 1, 2006
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                  OK, so we've established the bottom half.

                  Warning for Gentlemen: Discussion of female-specifics
                  ahead!

                  For ladies, what about the top half? Roman garments
                  included a breast band ('strophium' IIRC or something
                  like that?), basically just 'strapping down the
                  girls'. ;) I have no idea if this carried over to the
                  Byzantine empire, or if there were middle eastern
                  influences to consider. Subsequent time periods in
                  western europe have a certain amount of support built
                  in; there are a number of resources for the
                  self-supporting cote-simple. I suppose theoretically,
                  the first layer sorochka or rubakha could be
                  constructed the same way as a supporting cote-simple,
                  but the necessary tailoring strikes me as a trifle
                  sophisticated compared to other early period Rus'
                  garments. I'm rather inclined to think the Rus' used
                  nothing at all, or a roman style breast band.

                  Comments? Ideas? Perhaps there's a middle-eastern
                  item I'm missing?

                  --Sfandra

                  --- jennifer knox <jeniferknox@...> wrote:

                  > At least in the 10th century they did, that book i
                  > mentioned earlier ('von china nach byzanz') has
                  > pictures of pants 'belonging either to women or
                  > men'. I cant imagine that women were wearing them
                  > over their dresses :-). can i send attachments over
                  > this list or would i have to send it to a private
                  > email address?
                  > and that web page *does* rock!
                  > anya


                  ******************
                  Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                  Kingdom of the East
                  ******************
                  Never 'pearl' your butt.

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                • L.M. Kies
                  Wait no more.  :) http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanWoman.html Sofya ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 1, 2006
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                    Wait no more.  :)

                    http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanWoman.html

                    Sofya

                    ------- Original Message -------
                    >Thank you again. I can't wait for the female webpage!
                    >
                    >Nadya



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
                    Excellent work on BOTH sites, Sofya. Mishka
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 1, 2006
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                      Excellent work on BOTH sites, Sofya.
                      Mishka


                      On 3/1/06, L.M. Kies <lkies@...> wrote:
                      > Wait no more.  :)
                      >
                      > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanWoman.html
                      >
                      > Sofya
                    • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                      ... That s where we get into the question of fabric choice. Most of the time, we seem to see wool or other animal fabric as the outerwear, and linen or other
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 3, 2006
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                        > So, maybe underwear in period really is old pants
                        > and old shirts, cut shorter and recycled for more use
                        > and a good periodic boiling?

                        That's where we get into the question of fabric choice. Most of the
                        time, we seem to see wool or other animal fabric as the outerwear, and
                        linen or other bast fibers as the innerwear. This is assumed to be
                        because the bast fibers wash better and dry more quickly; putting them
                        next to the skin and washing them on a regular basis seems to make
                        sense. Bast fibers also don't take dye as well as animal fibers, which
                        is a disadvantage for outer clothing.

                        Still, if the rumor that multiple underdresses were used is true, one
                        could layer the better ones over (or under) the older, more worn out
                        things. And after all, t-shirts were originally underclothes, not
                        outerwear. :)



                        --
                        -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                        "America was not built on fear. America was built on courage, on
                        imagination and an unbeatable determination to do the job at hand."
                        -- Harry S. Truman
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