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RE: what kind of silk

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  • Linda
    ... Subject: what kind of silk? I m getting ready to do some garb, and I would like to make nicer stuff in silk. But as I look at the types of modern silks, I
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 28, 2006
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      -----
      Subject: what kind of silk?

      I'm getting ready to do some garb, and I would like to make nicer
      stuff in silk. But as I look at the types of modern silks, I have no
      clue which I should use. What type would work for say an over shirt
      for a rich person around Kiev (1242)? Also what suggestions for cheap
      fake silk? I've seen some what I guess might be decent "costume
      silk" or something of the like that was 100% polly. And only $2 a
      yard. But for all I know, it might be the a very bad choice to use.
      What about silk with patterns? what should I look for and avoid?
      <clip>
      Verson Medvedinkov
      -----------

      A rich person in Kiev in 1242 would most likely have had some access to
      the silk from China, Turkistan, and couple other areas in Asia minor.
      This would be the brocades with satin grounds as well as other satins
      and long filament silks.
      The silk industries in western Europe were developing at this time but
      the Eastern trade route came up through Kiev for a couple hundred years
      before this and was well developed.

      Anya, I'd love to see your samples and documentation of 'douppioni'
      style silk. I haven't seen any dig records or pictures that resemble
      modern douppioni and would like to add these to my research.

      Shorter filaments of silk are used today, as they would have been in
      medieval times. Spun silk threads make the 'less crisp' taffetas, surahs
      and filler weft threads in failles and other ribbed silks.
      A Royal Museum of Ontario book "Silk Roads, China Ships" describes the
      process of using the waste silk, carded to make a floss, as padding for
      winter clothes as well as spinning it for a thread.
      Although they didn't have 'jacquards' (the invention of the jacquard
      loom being later than our period) they did have damasks which look very
      much like them.

      I'm not sure what the Mongol invasions did to trade in Russia at the
      time though.

      Margarita, your information about the way they select the future silk
      worm breeders is what I've read too.

      As to design, I would suggest you look for a 'Mongol', Chinese, or
      Turkish looking design if you're going to go with a patterned silk.

      Please avoid polyester if at all possible....it burns like a torch if
      touched with flame, and makes a better sauna suit than garb. Or use it
      sparingly.

      If you choose a 'cheaper' silk, then look for the douppioni silks that
      have the fewest slubs possible. Other silks that would be period besides
      taffeta and brocade are shantung, faille or grosgraine and possibly
      bengaline. These are 'repp' fabrics that have 'ribs' that go crosswise
      of the fabric. There are dig finds of this kind of textile in the Baltic
      region.

      Maria Pienkneplotno (Polish fabric merchant ;)

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    • jennifer knox
      When I get some time I will get those pictures for you. More feasable silks for Kiev can be found in the book Von China nach Byzanz which is the catalogue
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 28, 2006
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        When I get some time I will get those pictures for you. More feasable silks for Kiev can be found in the book 'Von China nach Byzanz' which is the catalogue of the Bavarian national museum's exhibit of textile and leather finds on the northern part of the Black Sea coming from China and destined for Byzantium. Things in it include : a few caftans, WOMEN'S PANTS!!, a few dresses and cloaks, several hats and veils, childrens boots, some cool gloves, a few helmets with textile covers, tons of tablet weaving and silk pouches, leather bottles, arrow umm, the thing you keep your arrows in (its late, sorry). There's lots of silk in it. The time period is 10th century, but if you are just looking at silk, that should suit you fine.

        Full Title:
        'Von China Nach Byzanz: Fr├╝hmittelalterliche Seiden aus der Staatlichen Ermitage St. Petersburg'. It's published by the Bayerisches National Museum.

        You can buy it for about 10 euros over here, im sure Amazon has it? its full of color pictures, very good and accurate descriptions (textile weaves, dyestuffs used, etc)

        Definately worth looking for...

        And for tons of silk pictures (mostly black and white) look at
        'Seidenstoffe Des 5 -514 Jahrhunderts Im Berliner Kunstgewerbemuseum: Mittelalterliche Seidenstoffe' By Leonie von Wilckens

        and for more silk, check out

        'Vestiduras Ricas: El Monasterio de las Huelgas Y Su Epoca 1170 - 1300'
        Not Slavic, but tons and tons of silks that would have been sent on the trade routes

        And for the dupioni style silk:

        'Die mittelalterlichen Textilien von St. Servatius in Maastricht', which has tons of silks from all over Europe, as well as some linen
        I'm not sure how available it is, as you can only get it at the church over here, and it's a bit pricy (60 euros but very worth it)

        Anyhow, im sure ordering a ton of foreign books wasnt what you had in mind, but for those of you who want to go deeper into silk research, they really are worth having even if you dont speak german or spanish...

        Anya



        Linda <fabrix@...> wrote:


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      • Marilee Humason
        My research has told me that the Mongols acutally forwarded trade in Russia, they defended the silk routes and as long as they got their share,(large share!)
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 28, 2006
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          My research has told me that the Mongols acutally
          forwarded trade in Russia, they defended the silk
          routes and as long as they got their share,(large
          share!) trade actually prospered under the Mongols.
          What they didn't understand is that if you burn all
          the fields it takes years and years to regrow, Kiev
          was laid to waste in this department. Before that they
          had more than enough food for themselves and export.
          The Mongols never did understand Agriculture.
          Anastasia

          --- Linda <fabrix@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > -----
          > Subject: what kind of silk?
          >
          > I'm getting ready to do some garb, and I would
          > like to make nicer
          > stuff in silk. But as I look at the types of modern
          > silks, I have no
          > clue which I should use. What type would work for
          > say an over shirt
          > for a rich person around Kiev (1242)? Also what
          > suggestions for cheap
          > fake silk? I've seen some what I guess might be
          > decent "costume
          > silk" or something of the like that was 100% polly.
          > And only $2 a
          > yard. But for all I know, it might be the a very
          > bad choice to use.
          > What about silk with patterns? what should I look
          > for and avoid?
          > <clip>
          > Verson Medvedinkov
          > -----------
          >
          > A rich person in Kiev in 1242 would most likely have
          > had some access to
          > the silk from China, Turkistan, and couple other
          > areas in Asia minor.
          > This would be the brocades with satin grounds as
          > well as other satins
          > and long filament silks.
          > The silk industries in western Europe were
          > developing at this time but
          > the Eastern trade route came up through Kiev for a
          > couple hundred years
          > before this and was well developed.
          >
          > Anya, I'd love to see your samples and documentation
          > of 'douppioni'
          > style silk. I haven't seen any dig records or
          > pictures that resemble
          > modern douppioni and would like to add these to my
          > research.
          >
          > Shorter filaments of silk are used today, as they
          > would have been in
          > medieval times. Spun silk threads make the 'less
          > crisp' taffetas, surahs
          > and filler weft threads in failles and other ribbed
          > silks.
          > A Royal Museum of Ontario book "Silk Roads, China
          > Ships" describes the
          > process of using the waste silk, carded to make a
          > floss, as padding for
          > winter clothes as well as spinning it for a thread.
          > Although they didn't have 'jacquards' (the invention
          > of the jacquard
          > loom being later than our period) they did have
          > damasks which look very
          > much like them.
          >
          > I'm not sure what the Mongol invasions did to trade
          > in Russia at the
          > time though.
          >
          > Margarita, your information about the way they
          > select the future silk
          > worm breeders is what I've read too.
          >
          > As to design, I would suggest you look for a
          > 'Mongol', Chinese, or
          > Turkish looking design if you're going to go with a
          > patterned silk.
          >
          > Please avoid polyester if at all possible....it
          > burns like a torch if
          > touched with flame, and makes a better sauna suit
          > than garb. Or use it
          > sparingly.
          >
          > If you choose a 'cheaper' silk, then look for the
          > douppioni silks that
          > have the fewest slubs possible. Other silks that
          > would be period besides
          > taffeta and brocade are shantung, faille or
          > grosgraine and possibly
          > bengaline. These are 'repp' fabrics that have 'ribs'
          > that go crosswise
          > of the fabric. There are dig finds of this kind of
          > textile in the Baltic
          > region.
          >
          > Maria Pienkneplotno (Polish fabric merchant ;)
          >
          > --
          > No virus found in this outgoing message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/271 -
          > Release Date: 2/28/2006
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > sig-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
        • vjudson
          It was called Pax Mongolica. One of the largest empires ever. Iwona
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 1, 2006
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            It was called Pax Mongolica. One of the largest empires ever.

            Iwona
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