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Re: SCA Alternate Titles

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  • Alastair Millar
    Coming in late on this one, but... It is very easy to assume that online and/or dictionary sources are sufficient when compiling lists of titles. Sadly, life
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 7, 2005
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      Coming in late on this one, but...

      It is very easy to assume that online and/or dictionary sources are
      sufficient when compiling lists of titles. Sadly, life is rarely so
      simple - as seems to be implied by the revision of the Estonian titles
      mentioned in the cover letter referred to earlier. The Czech alternate
      titles used by the SCA still suffer from some pretty awful drawbacks too
      (anyone interested can find my commentary on this issue at
      http://www.skriptorium.info/english/r_rntitles.htm).

      In summary... be careful!

      Alastair

      Alastair Millar BSc(Hons) - http://www.skriptorium.info
      = Translation & consultancy for the heritage industry =

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    • janos@j-smith.net
      Alistair (et al) I agree completely that this is dangerous ground. There are a couple of problems with a simple and easy chart: 1. We re talking about
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 8, 2005
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        Alistair (et al)

        I agree completely that this is dangerous ground. There are a couple of problems with a simple and easy chart:

        1. We're talking about centuries of titles, which change over time. For example, the Hungarian list (which I disagree with) would be completely different prior to the conquest than it would be in the medieval era (for example, "Kende" for king prior to 1000AD.

        2. A specific title means a different thing to different people. In Germany, for example (I know this is out of our area of study, but I know it better), the duchies were based on the old German tribes and were very powerful, while the princes were just counts who had been promoted (largely through vast wealth) and ruled very small areas.

        Janos

        sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:

        Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:48:41 +0100
        From: "Alastair Millar"
        Subject: Re: SCA Alternate Titles

        Coming in late on this one, but...

        It is very easy to assume that online and/or dictionary sources are
        sufficient when compiling lists of titles. Sadly, life is rarely so
        simple - as seems to be implied by the revision of the Estonian titles
        mentioned in the cover letter referred to earlier. The Czech alternate
        titles used by the SCA still suffer from some pretty awful drawbacks too
        (anyone interested can find my commentary on this issue at
        http://www.skriptorium.info/english/r_rntitles.htm).

        In summary... be careful!

        Alastair

        Alastair Millar BSc(Hons) - http://www.skriptorium.info
        = Translation & consultancy for the heritage industry =



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • quokkaqueen
        Janos, The German examples you use are very apt, as both in the Baltic and Czech titles, a duke can be above a prince in rank. However, it appears that in the
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 8, 2005
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          Janos,

          The German examples you use are very apt, as both in the Baltic and
          Czech titles, a duke can be above a prince in rank.

          However, it appears that in the SCA, the title of prince (or princess)
          is only used for those who are going to take on being king (or queen)
          of the SCA-kingdom.
          So, to continue the German example, it should not be Prinz but Fürst.
          (Do correct me if I'm wrong at any stage guys)

          However, in the SCA-approved list the title for a German prince is Prinz.

          As for the title being correct anywhere within our medieval context,
          the Baltic languages (as best as I can tell) weren't formally written
          down until the end of the 16th century, or later.

          In short, a lot of work needs to be done,
          Asfridhr

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, <janos@j...> wrote:
          >
          > Alistair (et al)
          >
          > I agree completely that this is dangerous ground. There are a
          couple of problems with a simple and easy chart:
          >
          > 1. We're talking about centuries of titles, which change over time.

          <<snip>>

          > 2. A specific title means a different thing to different people.
          <<snip>>
          > Janos
          >
          > sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          >
          > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:48:41 +0100
          > From: "Alastair Millar"
          > Subject: Re: SCA Alternate Titles
          >
          > Coming in late on this one, but...
          <<snip>>
          >
          > In summary... be careful!
          >
          > Alastair
          <<snip>>
        • Anthony Bryant
          ... Hardly. The rulers of the principalities of the Mists, Cinagua, Avocal, Oertha, etc, are all princes. Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website:
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 9, 2005
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            quokkaqueen wrote:

            > However, it appears that in the SCA, the title of prince (or princess)
            > is only used for those who are going to take on being king (or queen)
            > of the SCA-kingdom.


            Hardly. <G>

            The rulers of the principalities of the Mists, Cinagua,
            Avocal, Oertha, etc, are all princes.

            Effingham
            --

            Anthony J. Bryant
            Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

            Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

            All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
            http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
          • quokkaqueen
            So, the SCA does need to have these differing alternate titles, not just the simplified titles. Let s see if I ve got it right this time: The rulers of a
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 10, 2005
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              So, the SCA does need to have these differing alternate titles, not
              just the simplified titles.

              Let's see if I've got it right this time:
              The rulers of a principality are rulers in that they aren't going to
              ascend to the throne and become king. Therefore they would take the
              princely title of
              Prinz/Prints/Princas/Princis
              (German/Estonian/Lithuanian/Latvian)

              However, a person who is in a kingdom and is first in line to become
              the next king has the princely title of
              Fürst/Vürst/Kunigaikštis/Firsts

              Once you have been a prince (I would assume of a principality), you
              take on the title of viscount, and once you have been a king you then
              become a count. If you are a count and become king again, once you
              have reigned you are a duke.

              So, if there were to be Lithuanian titles used, your two types of
              prince would be Princas and Kunigaikštis, and a duke would be known as
              Hercogas? (Not Kunigaikštis, because firstly that title is taken up
              by princes and secondly because for at least SCA purposes there is
              only one type of duke?)

              I'm trying to figure this out using the one paragraph under 'rank in
              the SCA' here: http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html

              Hopefully I'm not too confused,
              Asfridhr
              http://www.499angels.net/baltic/

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@c...> wrote:
              <<snip>>
              >
              > The rulers of the principalities of the Mists, Cinagua,
              > Avocal, Oertha, etc, are all princes.
              >
              > Effingham
              <<snip>>
            • janos@j-smith.net
              Hi there, You re only a little confused ;) Fuerst etc represents the ruler of a principality, and Prinz etc represents the heir to the throne. Can t help with
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 11, 2005
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                Hi there,

                You're only a little confused ;)

                Fuerst etc represents the ruler of a principality, and Prinz etc represents the heir to the throne.

                Can't help with the Lithuanian, not my language.

                Janos

                sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 08:50:33 -0000
                From: "quokkaqueen"
                Subject: Re: SCA Alternate Titles (getting long)

                So, the SCA does need to have these differing alternate titles, not
                just the simplified titles.

                Let's see if I've got it right this time:
                The rulers of a principality are rulers in that they aren't going to
                ascend to the throne and become king. Therefore they would take the
                princely title of
                Prinz/Prints/Princas/Princis
                (German/Estonian/Lithuanian/Latvian)

                However, a person who is in a kingdom and is first in line to become
                the next king has the princely title of
                Fürst/Vürst/Kunigaikštis/Firsts

                Once you have been a prince (I would assume of a principality), you
                take on the title of viscount, and once you have been a king you then
                become a count. If you are a count and become king again, once you
                have reigned you are a duke.

                So, if there were to be Lithuanian titles used, your two types of
                prince would be Princas and Kunigaikštis, and a duke would be known as
                Hercogas? (Not Kunigaikštis, because firstly that title is taken up
                by princes and secondly because for at least SCA purposes there is
                only one type of duke?)

                I'm trying to figure this out using the one paragraph under 'rank in
                the SCA' here: http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html

                Hopefully I'm not too confused,
                Asfridhr
                http://www.499angels.net/baltic/



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Chantal Osborne
                [Clip your posts. Moderator] Hey Man, You are so funny. I like how you try to talk and i think you are very ammusing. We should talk more often... mua Chantal
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 11, 2005
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                  [Clip your posts. Moderator]

                  Hey Man,
                  You are so funny. I like how you try to talk and i think you are very ammusing. We should talk more often...
                  mua
                  Chantal Tatiana

                  [Clip your posts. Moderator]
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