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Re: [sig] Bohemian Question

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  • Jeremy Slick
    Greetings Your Highness! I don t have any examples immediately on hand, but I have a couple individuals I m in contact with on a regular basis that might have
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 5, 2005
      Greetings Your Highness!

      I don't have any examples immediately on hand, but I have a couple individuals I'm in contact with on a regular basis that might have something lying around. I'll let you know if I find anything that might be useful.

      Also, I have an additional questions for you to ask offlist, if you please.

      Until the next time,
      Mishka Lamanov
      [[aka: Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi]]


      xorazneartsruni <markandnancyk@...> wrote: Does anyone have any research information on 14th C. Bohemian scroll texts or coronation ceremonies?

      Thank you!

      Xorazne


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    • Jeremy J. Slick
      Greetings Your Highness! I ve gotten a preliminary response from those that I ve been in contact with. So far this is the only example that has been found:
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 5, 2005
        Greetings Your Highness!

        I've gotten a preliminary response from those that I've been in
        contact with. So far this is the only example that has been found:

        http://www.nd.edu/~medvllib/apocalypse/wences.html

        I hope that this will at least be a start for what you were needing.
        Until the next time,
        Mishka / Giudo


        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "xorazneartsruni" <markandnancyk@c...> wrote:
        >
        > Does anyone have any research information on 14th C. Bohemian scroll
        > texts or coronation ceremonies?
        >
        > Thank you!
        >
        > Xorazne
      • Jeremy J. Slick
        Greetings Your Highness! One more E-Mail for you on your quest for 14th C. Bohemian information. This was the content of an E-Mail I received from Master Modar
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 6, 2005
          Greetings Your Highness!

          One more E-Mail for you on your quest for 14th C. Bohemian
          information. This was the content of an E-Mail I received from Master
          Modar this morning that you may find of use:

          ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ START FORWARDED TEXT ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

          "To what extent the Slavonic rite also flourished in Bohemia is a
          matter of dispute. Until the 14th century Bohemia was ruled by the
          P*emyslid dynasty, of legendary origin. One day, as the story goes,
          the Czech nobles refused to be ruled over by a woman, Princess Libu*e,
          any longer; she told them to follow her horse till it led them to
          P*emysl, her husband-to-be, ploughing in a field. The nation, in turn,
          traditionally derives its origins from the patriarchal leader Czech,
          who stood Moses-like upon Bohemia's Mount of *íp and pronounced the
          land vacant, and fit to inhabit. Bohemia began to receive Christianity
          by the 9th century, when fourteen Bohemian princes were baptised at
          Regensburg, while according to legend an early P*emyslid prince
          Bo*ivoj was christened by Methodius, founding the first Bohemian
          church at Levý Hradec, and later another at Prague Castle. Under his
          grandson Wenceslas (Václav in modern Czech, "Good King Wenceslas" in
          the 19th-c. English carol), Bohemia's westward affiliation was marked
          by a church at Prague Castle, now its Cathedral, dedicated to the
          Saxon St. Vitus. Wenceslas, who subsequently became Bohemia's patron
          saint, was murdered in 935 by his brother Boleslav, and his piety was
          soon celebrated in both Latin and Slavonic legends of his life. The
          use of Old Church Slavonic, perhaps temporarily revived, reached its
          end in 1097, when the Slavonic monks of Sázava were driven out. (Much
          later, Charles IV brought some Croat monks of the Slavonic rite to
          Prague, to the Emmaus Monastery, but this was a brief episode.)"

          More info at:
          http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tayl0010/history.htm

          ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ END FORWARDED TEXT ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

          From what I can see, the rest of the resources I have access to are
          coming up with dead ends on any additional information. I hope that
          the information presented will be of use to your.

          Until the next time,
          Mishka Lamanov
          [[aka: Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi]]
        • analog4kid
          Hmmm...I ll have to check and see if anything is mentioned in the book from the Prague exhibit the Met had. Unfortunately with the holyday season and being
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 7, 2005
            Hmmm...I'll have to check and see if anything is mentioned in the book
            from the Prague exhibit the Met had. Unfortunately with the holyday
            season and being knee deep in something else for our Kingdom's 12th
            Night, i can't promise a timetable.

            I know the book has some of the best manuscript repro pictures I've
            seen in awhile, so I can certainly get you "style", but I don't know
            about text.

            Jan

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "xorazneartsruni" <markandnancyk@c...> wrote:
            >
            > Does anyone have any research information on 14th C. Bohemian scroll
            > texts or coronation ceremonies?
            >
            > Thank you!
            >
            > Xorazne
            >
          • Alastair Millar
            ... Well those are pretty big questions, and I guess the answer depends on how much detail you really want/need, and on whether you can speak (or at least
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 7, 2005
              Xorazne writes:

              > Does anyone have any research information on 14th C. Bohemian scroll
              > texts or coronation ceremonies?

              Well those are pretty big questions, and I guess the answer depends on
              how much detail you really want/need, and on whether you can speak (or
              at least read) Czech...

              Charles IV (b.1316, d.1378) actually rewrote the whole coronation ritual
              for his own coronation as King of Bohemia on September 2nd 1347. The
              whole thing is set out in a manuscript entitled "Ordo Ad Coronandum
              Regem Boemorum" (lit. "The Order of Coronation of the Kings of
              Bohemia"), which I think is not yet available online as part of the
              Czech National Library's vast (and UNESCO-approved) digitisation
              programme, though I could be wrong.

              An edition of the Ordo ACRB was however published as:
              Emler, J, "Řád korunování krále českého a královny", in: Památky staré
              literatury české, Prague 1878
              (Without diacriticals that's "Rad korunovani krale ceskeho a kralovny",
              in: Pamatky stare literatury ceske, and yes, that's 1878 not 1978...)

              I am not aware of any English translation of the Order of Coronation, so
              Latin or Czech it will probably have to be. A summary in Czech of the
              coronation process appears on pp35-37 of:
              Various authors: "České korunovační klenoty" (3rd extended edition),
              Prague, Prague Castle Administration, 1998
              (Without diaciticals: "Ceske korunovacni klenoty")
              No English edition of the latter has been published, although I am
              trying to convince the powers that be to let me do one before the
              coronation jewels next go on display (probably in about 20 years... - I
              did get to translate the texts accompanying their last exhibition,
              though!)

              According to this summary, the various stages of the coronation were:
              1. Prayers at Vyšehrad (formerly a royal seat, at the opposite end of
              Prague from the Castle...) the evening before the coronation.
              2. On the morning of the coronation day, the ritual of awakening the
              lord
              3. Formal procession to the Cathedral
              4. Formal procession to the Altar of the Holy Rood
              5. Vows and acclamation
              6. Litany
              7. Celebration of a Full Mass, which is interrupted by...
              8. The bringing of the Holy Oil.
              9. The ceremony of the Annointing with Holy Oil
              10. Benediction and the giving of the insignia
              11. Blessing of the crown and the coronation of the King.
              12. The Enthronement of the King
              13. Pronouncement of the Te Deum
              14. The Royal Oath is given by the King.
              15. Benediction and annointing of the Queen.
              16. Coronation of the Queen
              17. Mass continues with a reading from the Gospel of St Matthew
              18. The King dedicates a white loaf and a silver jug filled with wine
              and "an amount of gold appropriate to the King's dignity", as does the
              Queen. The King is to be preceded to and from the altar by a drawn
              sword.
              19. The service ends with a benediction. If the king wishes, he may be
              escorted by princes or nobles to the altar to receive communion in both
              kinds from the hands of the archbishop.

              Less usefully, there is a reference in the Chronicle of the Prague
              Church by Beneš Krabice of Weitmile for the year 1347, but this contains
              no details of the ceremony.

              You might like to note that since the King of Bohemia ruled "by Grace of
              God", it was appropriate (until the 17th century) to kneel before him.

              Hope this helps

              Alastair

              Alastair Millar BSc(Hons) - http://www.skriptorium.info
              = Translation & consultancy for the heritage industry =

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            • John Kowal
              Greetings All; Picking up on the Saint Wenceslas theme below as a possible source. Medieval Slavic Lives Marvin Kantor 1983 Michigan Slavic Publications Ann
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 7, 2005
                Greetings All;

                Picking up on the Saint Wenceslas theme below as a possible source.

                Medieval Slavic Lives
                Marvin Kantor
                1983 Michigan Slavic Publications
                Ann Arbor, Michigan
                0-930042-44-1
                pgs 139 - 162 The Life of Wenceslas

                It has some black and white photos of illuminations and text (in OCS
                -Old Church Slavonic) circa 11thc. However it mentions that the
                Slavonic Church ceased to exist circa 1100 and was cut off from its
                roots by the external pressures of German-Latin Church. Existing copies
                of said work are far and few between and mostly survived by traveling
                eastward toward Russia. You can try and interdepartmental library loan
                it. Or I can try and take digital pics out of my copy and send them to
                you if you like?

                What I did with my Peerage Scroll was use the Illuminations a basis of
                decoration. As well as examples of period tile work as a basis for some
                decoration as well. I had a talented scribe look at the lay out of Old
                Church Slavonic and basically make up her own script. So when looking
                at it initially you have a feel for the look but it is in modern era
                english. Though my period is 10th and 11thc and not 14th.

                If we are looking at 14th c then the style very much would likely
                change. Especially with a more German-Latin stylization of the art and
                illumination.
                Aleksandr Vasilevych Lev

                On 6-Dec-05, at 8:31 AM, Jeremy J. Slick wrote:
                > Greetings Your Highness!
                >
                > One more E-Mail for you on your quest for 14th C. Bohemian
                > information. This was the content of an E-Mail I received from Master
                > Modar this morning that you may find of use:
                >
                > ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ START FORWARDED TEXT ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
                >
                > "To what extent the Slavonic rite also flourished in Bohemia is a
                > matter of dispute. Until the 14th century Bohemia was ruled by the
                > P*emyslid dynasty, of legendary origin. One day, as the story goes,
                > the Czech nobles refused to be ruled over by a woman, Princess Libu*e,
                > any longer; she told them to follow her horse till it led them to
                > P*emysl, her husband-to-be, ploughing in a field. The nation, in turn,
                > traditionally derives its origins from the patriarchal leader Czech,
                > who stood Moses-like upon Bohemia's Mount of *íp and pronounced the
                > land vacant, and fit to inhabit. Bohemia began to receive Christianity
                > by the 9th century, when fourteen Bohemian princes were baptised at
                > Regensburg, while according to legend an early P*emyslid prince
                > Bo*ivoj was christened by Methodius, founding the first Bohemian
                > church at Levý Hradec, and later another at Prague Castle. Under his
                > grandson Wenceslas (Václav in modern Czech, "Good King Wenceslas" in
                > the 19th-c. English carol), Bohemia's westward affiliation was marked
                > by a church at Prague Castle, now its Cathedral, dedicated to the
                > Saxon St. Vitus. Wenceslas, who subsequently became Bohemia's patron
                > saint, was murdered in 935 by his brother Boleslav, and his piety was
                > soon celebrated in both Latin and Slavonic legends of his life. The
                > use of Old Church Slavonic, perhaps temporarily revived, reached its
                > end in 1097, when the Slavonic monks of Sázava were driven out. (Much
                > later, Charles IV brought some Croat monks of the Slavonic rite to
                > Prague, to the Emmaus Monastery, but this was a brief episode.)"
                >
                > More info at:
                > http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tayl0010/history.htm
                >
                > ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ END FORWARDED TEXT ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
                >
                > From what I can see, the rest of the resources I have access to are
                > coming up with dead ends on any additional information. I hope that
                > the information presented will be of use to your.
                >
                > Until the next time,
                > Mishka Lamanov
                > [[aka: Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi]]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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