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SCA Alternate Titles

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  • quokkaqueen
    Hi all, Since my assessment for the academic year just finished (yippee!) it means I have more time to spend on things, like the Baltic knowledge pages. I m
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 26, 2005
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      Hi all,

      Since my assessment for the academic year just finished (yippee!) it
      means I have more time to spend on things, like the Baltic knowledge
      pages.

      I'm starting to put together a list of alternate titles in Estonian,
      Lithuanian and Latvian and have been able to find an Estonian version
      but nothing else.

      http://499angels.net/baltic/alternate.html
      (It needs to be made pretty for public consumption, but the
      information is there)

      Does anyone know of any lists about of these titles? Or even any
      native speakers out there who could give some suggestions?

      Any response is appreciated!
      Asfridhr
    • janos@j-smith.net
      Hi there, A noble effort! For Estonian, have you checked the standard SCA list of accepted alternate titles? Check http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html.
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 27, 2005
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        Hi there,

        A noble effort!

        For Estonian, have you checked the standard SCA list of accepted alternate titles? Check http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html. Lithuanian and Latvian are missing so far.

        Janos

        sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:
        Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:20:28 -0000
        From: "quokkaqueen"
        Subject: SCA Alternate Titles

        Hi all,

        Since my assessment for the academic year just finished (yippee!) it
        means I have more time to spend on things, like the Baltic knowledge
        pages.

        I'm starting to put together a list of alternate titles in Estonian,
        Lithuanian and Latvian and have been able to find an Estonian version
        but nothing else.

        http://499angels.net/baltic/alternate.html
        (It needs to be made pretty for public consumption, but the
        information is there)

        Does anyone know of any lists about of these titles? Or even any
        native speakers out there who could give some suggestions?

        Any response is appreciated!
        Asfridhr

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • quokkaqueen
        Hi, The Estonian list is put together from the standard SCA list, and the January 1997 LOAR that also had the remaining titles listed.
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 27, 2005
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          Hi,
          The Estonian list is put together from the standard SCA list, and the
          January 1997 LOAR that also had the remaining titles listed.
          (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1997/01/cvr.html)

          I admit, I've kept in the other unofficial alternate titles, because
          they are nice in showing the cultural exchange in words between the
          languages (even though Estonian isn't related to Lithuanian or Latvian)

          eg. English Princess, Estonian Vürstinna, Latvian Firstiene.

          The only major problem so far is that the Lithuanian for Duke and
          Prince are identical. Or so many online dictionaries say.

          Asfridhr

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, <janos@j...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi there,
          >
          > A noble effort!
          >
          > For Estonian, have you checked the standard SCA list of accepted
          alternate titles? Check http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html.
          Lithuanian and Latvian are missing so far.
          >
          > Janos
          >
          > sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:20:28 -0000
          > From: "quokkaqueen"
          > Subject: SCA Alternate Titles
          >
          > Hi all,
          >
          > Since my assessment for the academic year just finished (yippee!) it
          > means I have more time to spend on things, like the Baltic knowledge
          > pages.
          >
          > I'm starting to put together a list of alternate titles in Estonian,
          > Lithuanian and Latvian and have been able to find an Estonian version
          > but nothing else.
          >
          > http://499angels.net/baltic/alternate.html
          > (It needs to be made pretty for public consumption, but the
          > information is there)
          >
          > Does anyone know of any lists about of these titles? Or even any
          > native speakers out there who could give some suggestions?
          >
          > Any response is appreciated!
          > Asfridhr
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Alastair Millar
          Coming in late on this one, but... It is very easy to assume that online and/or dictionary sources are sufficient when compiling lists of titles. Sadly, life
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 7, 2005
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            Coming in late on this one, but...

            It is very easy to assume that online and/or dictionary sources are
            sufficient when compiling lists of titles. Sadly, life is rarely so
            simple - as seems to be implied by the revision of the Estonian titles
            mentioned in the cover letter referred to earlier. The Czech alternate
            titles used by the SCA still suffer from some pretty awful drawbacks too
            (anyone interested can find my commentary on this issue at
            http://www.skriptorium.info/english/r_rntitles.htm).

            In summary... be careful!

            Alastair

            Alastair Millar BSc(Hons) - http://www.skriptorium.info
            = Translation & consultancy for the heritage industry =

            --
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            Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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            6.12.2005
          • janos@j-smith.net
            Alistair (et al) I agree completely that this is dangerous ground. There are a couple of problems with a simple and easy chart: 1. We re talking about
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 8, 2005
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              Alistair (et al)

              I agree completely that this is dangerous ground. There are a couple of problems with a simple and easy chart:

              1. We're talking about centuries of titles, which change over time. For example, the Hungarian list (which I disagree with) would be completely different prior to the conquest than it would be in the medieval era (for example, "Kende" for king prior to 1000AD.

              2. A specific title means a different thing to different people. In Germany, for example (I know this is out of our area of study, but I know it better), the duchies were based on the old German tribes and were very powerful, while the princes were just counts who had been promoted (largely through vast wealth) and ruled very small areas.

              Janos

              sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:

              Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:48:41 +0100
              From: "Alastair Millar"
              Subject: Re: SCA Alternate Titles

              Coming in late on this one, but...

              It is very easy to assume that online and/or dictionary sources are
              sufficient when compiling lists of titles. Sadly, life is rarely so
              simple - as seems to be implied by the revision of the Estonian titles
              mentioned in the cover letter referred to earlier. The Czech alternate
              titles used by the SCA still suffer from some pretty awful drawbacks too
              (anyone interested can find my commentary on this issue at
              http://www.skriptorium.info/english/r_rntitles.htm).

              In summary... be careful!

              Alastair

              Alastair Millar BSc(Hons) - http://www.skriptorium.info
              = Translation & consultancy for the heritage industry =



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • quokkaqueen
              Janos, The German examples you use are very apt, as both in the Baltic and Czech titles, a duke can be above a prince in rank. However, it appears that in the
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 8, 2005
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                Janos,

                The German examples you use are very apt, as both in the Baltic and
                Czech titles, a duke can be above a prince in rank.

                However, it appears that in the SCA, the title of prince (or princess)
                is only used for those who are going to take on being king (or queen)
                of the SCA-kingdom.
                So, to continue the German example, it should not be Prinz but Fürst.
                (Do correct me if I'm wrong at any stage guys)

                However, in the SCA-approved list the title for a German prince is Prinz.

                As for the title being correct anywhere within our medieval context,
                the Baltic languages (as best as I can tell) weren't formally written
                down until the end of the 16th century, or later.

                In short, a lot of work needs to be done,
                Asfridhr

                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, <janos@j...> wrote:
                >
                > Alistair (et al)
                >
                > I agree completely that this is dangerous ground. There are a
                couple of problems with a simple and easy chart:
                >
                > 1. We're talking about centuries of titles, which change over time.

                <<snip>>

                > 2. A specific title means a different thing to different people.
                <<snip>>
                > Janos
                >
                > sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                >
                > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:48:41 +0100
                > From: "Alastair Millar"
                > Subject: Re: SCA Alternate Titles
                >
                > Coming in late on this one, but...
                <<snip>>
                >
                > In summary... be careful!
                >
                > Alastair
                <<snip>>
              • Anthony Bryant
                ... Hardly. The rulers of the principalities of the Mists, Cinagua, Avocal, Oertha, etc, are all princes. Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website:
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 9, 2005
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                  quokkaqueen wrote:

                  > However, it appears that in the SCA, the title of prince (or princess)
                  > is only used for those who are going to take on being king (or queen)
                  > of the SCA-kingdom.


                  Hardly. <G>

                  The rulers of the principalities of the Mists, Cinagua,
                  Avocal, Oertha, etc, are all princes.

                  Effingham
                  --

                  Anthony J. Bryant
                  Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                  Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                  http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                  All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
                  http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
                • quokkaqueen
                  So, the SCA does need to have these differing alternate titles, not just the simplified titles. Let s see if I ve got it right this time: The rulers of a
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 10, 2005
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                    So, the SCA does need to have these differing alternate titles, not
                    just the simplified titles.

                    Let's see if I've got it right this time:
                    The rulers of a principality are rulers in that they aren't going to
                    ascend to the throne and become king. Therefore they would take the
                    princely title of
                    Prinz/Prints/Princas/Princis
                    (German/Estonian/Lithuanian/Latvian)

                    However, a person who is in a kingdom and is first in line to become
                    the next king has the princely title of
                    Fürst/Vürst/Kunigaikštis/Firsts

                    Once you have been a prince (I would assume of a principality), you
                    take on the title of viscount, and once you have been a king you then
                    become a count. If you are a count and become king again, once you
                    have reigned you are a duke.

                    So, if there were to be Lithuanian titles used, your two types of
                    prince would be Princas and Kunigaikštis, and a duke would be known as
                    Hercogas? (Not Kunigaikštis, because firstly that title is taken up
                    by princes and secondly because for at least SCA purposes there is
                    only one type of duke?)

                    I'm trying to figure this out using the one paragraph under 'rank in
                    the SCA' here: http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html

                    Hopefully I'm not too confused,
                    Asfridhr
                    http://www.499angels.net/baltic/

                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@c...> wrote:
                    <<snip>>
                    >
                    > The rulers of the principalities of the Mists, Cinagua,
                    > Avocal, Oertha, etc, are all princes.
                    >
                    > Effingham
                    <<snip>>
                  • janos@j-smith.net
                    Hi there, You re only a little confused ;) Fuerst etc represents the ruler of a principality, and Prinz etc represents the heir to the throne. Can t help with
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 11, 2005
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                      Hi there,

                      You're only a little confused ;)

                      Fuerst etc represents the ruler of a principality, and Prinz etc represents the heir to the throne.

                      Can't help with the Lithuanian, not my language.

                      Janos

                      sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                      Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 08:50:33 -0000
                      From: "quokkaqueen"
                      Subject: Re: SCA Alternate Titles (getting long)

                      So, the SCA does need to have these differing alternate titles, not
                      just the simplified titles.

                      Let's see if I've got it right this time:
                      The rulers of a principality are rulers in that they aren't going to
                      ascend to the throne and become king. Therefore they would take the
                      princely title of
                      Prinz/Prints/Princas/Princis
                      (German/Estonian/Lithuanian/Latvian)

                      However, a person who is in a kingdom and is first in line to become
                      the next king has the princely title of
                      Fürst/Vürst/Kunigaikštis/Firsts

                      Once you have been a prince (I would assume of a principality), you
                      take on the title of viscount, and once you have been a king you then
                      become a count. If you are a count and become king again, once you
                      have reigned you are a duke.

                      So, if there were to be Lithuanian titles used, your two types of
                      prince would be Princas and Kunigaikštis, and a duke would be known as
                      Hercogas? (Not Kunigaikštis, because firstly that title is taken up
                      by princes and secondly because for at least SCA purposes there is
                      only one type of duke?)

                      I'm trying to figure this out using the one paragraph under 'rank in
                      the SCA' here: http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html

                      Hopefully I'm not too confused,
                      Asfridhr
                      http://www.499angels.net/baltic/



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Chantal Osborne
                      [Clip your posts. Moderator] Hey Man, You are so funny. I like how you try to talk and i think you are very ammusing. We should talk more often... mua Chantal
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 11, 2005
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                        [Clip your posts. Moderator]

                        Hey Man,
                        You are so funny. I like how you try to talk and i think you are very ammusing. We should talk more often...
                        mua
                        Chantal Tatiana

                        [Clip your posts. Moderator]
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