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Re: [sig] Book: Kiev Rus, by B. Grekov - thoughts?

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  • turanomar@libero.it
    [clip your posts --moderator] Hi folks! The clip is exhaustive about normanism and antinormanism theories (I would respect the Russian historiography in
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
      [clip your posts --moderator]

      Hi folks!
      The clip is exhaustive about normanism and antinormanism theories (I would respect the Russian historiography in writing normanist with one N instead of two.I have another theory which goes back to Jared Diamond, an Australian historian who noticed invented a very nice term for a state such as the one the Varangians established in Ladoga (in norse ALDEIGJUBORG where ALDEIGJA - Ladoga - is the transcription of Aled Jogi which in Carelian means Low River because the VOLHOV - the river of Novgorod - hear mouths into the Lake of Ladoga AFTER SOME RAPIDS)and later in Novgorod. The word is CLEPTOCRACY i.e. a state based on burglary and larceny. I, as an Italian, believe that it is better to call the first Varangian State A MAFIA STATE. In my latest work (which i titled CHRIST and the RUS MAFIA) I demonstrate that in the Chronicles it is cealrly stated that the Swedes presented themselves to the local landowners (Slavenes and Finns together) as the mafia does it today: WE ARE ARMED PEOPLE WHO ARE AT YOUR DISPOSAL FOR DEFENDING YOU FROM OTHER ARMED PEOPLE THAT HAUNT THIS COAST. YOU PAY AND WE WILL DEFEND YOU FROM THEM. This simply masquerades the fact that the Varangians themselves were THE MENACE! So at the end where Novgorod lies today there forms three centers: On the left bank there is the DETINEZ (which can be translated as CHILDRENS STOCKING CENTER where the hostages were kept and where also the kinds to be sold as slaves were locked up by the Swedes) while on the right bank divided by the ZHILOTUG (a canal rivulet) south were the Slavenes and north the TCHUDES (finns) and each controled the other. Why did the Varangians come to such a solution? If you remember the Vikings started to plunder and sackage the next to them seacoasts which were inhabited by Christians and had already abbeys and churches where local riches where kept, so the Vikings had an immediate revenue on their expeditions abroad. All the contrary happened for the Eastern Vikings who arrived here and the coast were desolated: No church, no people (finns and the balts used to live back in the forests and in any case their denisty was very low). Still they knew that Constantinople and BAGHDAD bought from here many valuables such as SLAVES (in the first place), HONEY (il was the most dear and the sole sweeteners for the kings and emperors), WAX (this was a very important raw material to enlighten the dark medieval world and the huge houses of churches and to make bronze objects)etc. So they had to find how to get into this traffic. They first were recruited as BODYGUARDS or CONVOY GUARDS on seasonal salary along the Russian Rivers to the South but then they caught the occasion when the Slavenes invited them to make out a steady way of life by their weapons. Why RUS? My opinion is that this word means simply MAFIA as we use COSA NOSTRA to describe a group of people that uses to act as a Mafia. It may be that they picked it up at the Cazar Kingdom's (AS LATER WAS WITH THE WORD kaghan TO DEFINE THE HEAD OF KIEV)from the Hebrew ROSH/RUSH i.e. the CHIEF.
      Ciao
      Aldo

      [clip your posts --moderator]
    • Tim Nalley
      That was fascinating! Hopefully a series of articles will insue from that so we can all learn more????? dok ... === message truncated ===
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
        That was fascinating! Hopefully a series of articles
        will insue from that so we can all learn more?????
        'dok

        --- John Kowal <jpkowal@...> wrote:

        > Greetings All;
        > If I might comment.
        > On 3-Oct-05, at 12:41 PM, <goldschp@...> wrote:
        > > Aldo,
        > > So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is an
        > "antinormanist"??
        > > -- Paul
        > >
        > >> contemporary institutions in the rest of East
        > Europe. I found very
        > >> interesting, as far i Was concerned, all the
        > study about Pravda
        > >> Rus'ka. You say he was a leading antinormanist,
        > but I think it is
        > >> worth discussing about this
        > normanism/antinormanism. It would be the
        > >> same as if in
        >
        > 1)So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"?
        > Yaroslav promulgated the first East Slavic law code,
        > Rus'ka pravda
        > (Justice of Rus'). Though I have only read portions
        > of Grekov's work it
        > would be a primary document to which Grekov no doubt
        > have referred to
        > in his study.
        >
        > 2) And what is an "antinormanist"?
        > See below clip. I couldn't really express it ant
        > better.
        >
        > Rus' (people)
        > The material from this article should be included
        > into Etymology of Rus
        > and derivatives.
        >
        > The origins of the Rus (or Rus' , §²§å§ã§î) are
        > controversial. Whereas most
        > Western historians tend to give credence to the
        > Normanist theory, many
        > Slavic scholars are strongly opposed and work to
        > find other origins.
        >
        > Culture and heritage is what is ultimately at stake
        > in this
        > controversy. The question is whether East Slavic
        > civilisation owes an
        > element of its cultural origin to the Scandinavian
        > rulers of the 9th to
        > 11th centuries, as suggested by the Normanist
        > theory, or whether that
        > heritage can excusively attributed to the Slavs, as
        > held by the
        > Slavists.
        >
        > The question is emotionally charged. In the 1770s,
        > one imperial Russian
        > historian presenting the Normanist theory in St.
        > Petersburg was forced
        > to curtail his lecture by shouts from the audience
        > and forced to cease
        > his work on the issue. His work was destroyed
        > (Source: Davies).
        >
        > The Normanist theory
        >
        > ----------
        >
        >
        >
        > ----------
        >
        > The Varangian world.
        >
        > This theory is called the Normanist theory, as it
        > suggests that Kievan
        > Rus' may have been named after its Scandinavian
        > overlords just as
        > Normandy. According to the Primary Chronicle, a
        > historical compilation
        > attributed to the 12th century, Rus was a group of
        > Varangians who lived
        > on the other side of the Baltic sea, in Scandinavia.
        > The Varangians
        > were first expelled, then invited to rule the
        > warring Slavic and Finnic
        > tribes of Novgorod:
        > The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute
        > to the Varangians -
        > Chuds, Slavs, Merians, and Krivichs drove the
        > Varangians back beyond
        > the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and
        > set out to govern
        > themselves. But there was no law among them, and
        > tribe rose against
        > tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they
        > began to war one
        > against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us
        > seek a prince who
        > may rule over us, and judge us according to custom.
        > Thus they went
        > overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These
        > particular Varangians
        > were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes,
        > and others Normans
        > and Angles, and still others Gotlanders, for they
        > were thus named. The
        > Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichs and the Ves then said
        > to the Rus, "Our
        > land is great and rich, but there is no order in it.
        > Come reign as
        > princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their
        > kinfolk, were
        > selected. They brought with them all the Rus and
        > migrated (The Primary
        > Chronicle).
        >
        > Later, the Primary Chronicle tells us, they
        > conquered Kiev and created
        > Kievan Rus'. The territory they conquered was named
        > after them (see
        > Etymology of Rus and derivatives) as were,
        > eventually, the local people
        > (cf. Normans).
        >
        > The Normanist theory is also based on Ibn Fadlan who
        > uses the name
        > Rusiyyah for a group of people who are usually
        > interpreted as Vikings
        > near Astrakhan, and on the Persian traveler Ibn
        > Rustah who allegedly
        > visited Novgorod and described how the Rus'
        > exploited the Slavs.
        > As for the Rus, they live on an island ...that takes
        > three days to walk
        > round and is covered with thick undergrowth and
        > forests; it is most
        > unhealthy....They harry the Slavs, using ships to
        > reach them; they
        > carry them off as slaves and...sell them. They have
        > no fields but
        > simply live on what they get from the Slav's
        > lands....When a son is
        > born, the father will go up to the newborn baby,
        > sword in hand;
        > throwing it down, he says, "I shall not leave you
        > with any property:
        > You have only what you can provide with this
        > weapon." (Ibn Rustah,
        > according to the National Geographic, March 1985)
        >
        > When the Varangians arrived in Constantinople, the
        > Byzantines
        > considered and described the Rhos (Greek Tsm) as a
        > different people
        > from the Slavs. In De Administrando Imperio[1] is
        > given the names of
        > the Dniepr cataracts in both Rhos and in Slavic. The
        > Rhos names:
        > E Essoupi (Old Norse vesuppi, "do not sleep")
        > E Oulvorsi (Old Norse holmfors, "island rapid")
        > E Gelandri (Old Norse gjallandi, "yelling, loudly
        > ringing")
        > E Aeifor (Old Norse eiforr, "ever fierce")
        > E Varouforos (Old Norse varufors, "cliff rapid" or
        > barufors, "wave
        > rapid")
        > E Leanti (Old Norse leandi, "seething", or
        > hlaejandi, "laughing")
        > E Stroukoun (Old Norse strukum, "rapid current").
        >
        > It is also due to the annals of Saint Bertan which
        > relate that Emperor
        > Louis II' court in Ingelheim, 839 (the same year as
        > the first
        > appearance of Varangians in Constantinople), was
        > visited by a
        > delegation from the Byzantine emperor. In this
        > delegation there were
        > two men who called themselves Rhos (Rhos vocari
        > dicebant). Louis
        > enquired about their origins and learnt that they
        > were Swedes. Fearing
        > that they were spies for their brothers, the Danes,
        > he incarcerated
        > them.
        >
        > This theory claims that the name Rus, like the
        > Finnish name for Sweden,
        > is derived from an Old Norse term for "the men who
        > row" (rods-) as
        > rowing was the main method of navigating the Russian
        > rivers, and that
        > it is linked to the Swedish province of Roslagen
        > (Rus-law) or Roden,
        > from which most Varangians came. The name Rus would
        > then have the same
        > origin as the Finnish and Estonian names for Sweden:
        > Ruotsi and Rootsi.
        >
        > In contemporary Scandinavian sources Eastern Europe
        > was
        === message truncated ===




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      • Sfandra
        ... antinormanist ?? -- Paul Near as I can tell, it seems that the Normanist vs AntiNormanist has to do with theories of how Russia developed and the origin
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
          >So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is >an
          "antinormanist"??

          -- Paul

          Near as I can tell, it seems that the Normanist vs
          AntiNormanist has to do with theories of how Russia
          developed and the origin of the name "Rus'".

          The Normanist theory says that Russia was developed
          and named out of the Scandinavian influence -- using
          the writings of Ibn Fadlan, who calls the norse
          raiders "Rusiyyah", and Ibn Rustah calls them "Rus"
          and differenciated them from the Slavs, the native
          peoples. Basically, it says the Rus were varagians,
          and they took over, just like the Norse in Normandy.

          The AntiNormanist position is that the nation formed
          more from the native Slavic people, with a source for
          the word "Rus" being imbedded in the slavic language:
          Ruslo (riverbed), Rusalka (river-spirit). Also the
          two rivers in the Ukraine the Ros' and Rusna. The
          AntiNormanists contend that the norse/scandinavian
          influence was completely absorbed by the local
          culture, leaving hardly a trace.

          So it's an argument of both ethnography and etymology.

          I have to read more before I'd even begin to form an
          opinion. What I'm finding most entertaining about
          Grekov is the fact that he quotes Marx as a firm
          source for historical anthropology....
          --Sfandra

          ******************
          Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
          Kingdom of the East
          ******************
          "Earth: The most dangerous place known to Man. Billions of humans have died there." --TarynEve, "Desert Isle" (ENTff)



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        • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
          Greetings! ... Actually, as extreme viewpoints, they hardly express the whole truth. The incompleteness of both theories was obvious by end-of-war. The only
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 6, 2005
            Greetings!

            > >So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is >an
            > "antinormanist"??
            > -- Paul
            >
            > Near as I can tell, it seems that the Normanist vs
            > AntiNormanist has to do with theories of how Russia
            > developed and the origin of the name "Rus'".
            Actually, as extreme viewpoints, they hardly express the whole truth. The incompleteness of both theories was obvious by end-of-war. The only thing was that usually both arguments were used in the Cold War: that the Slavs were wise enough to live by their own law (USSR), and that the Slavs were stupid enough to lack their own ruling hand even in the early days of Slavic states (Western historians). As with any politic reasons, both theories had distorted historic truth many times. The discussion on that topic raged in the FIDOnet echoconference SU.HISTORY about this spring-summer, and must be available through Googlegroups. Sorry, but it is in Russian. :-)

            >
            > The Normanist theory says that Russia was developed
            > and named out of the Scandinavian influence -- using
            > the writings of Ibn Fadlan, who calls the norse
            > raiders "Rusiyyah", and Ibn Rustah calls them "Rus"
            > and differenciated them from the Slavs, the native
            > peoples. Basically, it says the Rus were varagians,
            > and they took over, just like the Norse in Normandy.
            Actually, Ibn Fadlan (being a VERY emotional and not in the least impartial viewer - say, he reports of seeing a huge log-size snake, on the middle Volga, near Bulgar, some 150-200 kilometers south from Kazan - anyone can use Googlemaps and see how stupid a lie it is) says of some Rus merchants and describes their funeral rituals - saying nothing about their origins. Their origins, pardon me - is stated as a scientific fact by Michael Krichton, the same who wrote Jurassic Park, - his rather pulpy fiction novel The Eaters of the Flesh (13th warrior with Banderas is based on it) cites Ibn Fadlan for pages, to make the reader believe that the characters are really normans, of which there is actually NO proof.
            And, afair, Ibn Ruste says about the tribe Rus, which is a neighbor to the Slavs, and Rus merchants buy from the Slavs. No native vs. newcomers. And some other Arabic source names Rus "a tribe among teh Slavs", - thus, no agreement with the sources even in this.

            Actually, there is no proof that Scandinavians ever called themselves "Rus". The Finns called them ABOUT so (Ruotsi) - yes (and, afair, they called the Swedish like this), but the Scandinavians themselves - never. Even the fact that Ruotsi is related to the word Rus - lacks proof.

            > The AntiNormanist position is that the nation formed
            > more from the native Slavic people, with a source for
            > the word "Rus" being imbedded in the slavic language:
            > Ruslo (riverbed), Rusalka (river-spirit). Also the
            > two rivers in the Ukraine the Ros' and Rusna. The
            Also, the fact that "Rus" for 12 century Russians meant Kiev and Chertnigov region, they could even say "He went to the Rus" meaning a trip from outer regions like Rostov, Novgorod, etc to Kiev, Chernigov, Liubech, etc.

            > AntiNormanists contend that the norse/scandinavian
            > influence was completely absorbed by the local
            > culture, leaving hardly a trace.
            Absolutely. There is a very small circle of Scandinavian words borrowed.
            Also, there is a little wider circle of Russian/Slavic words borrowed by Scandinavians.

            :-)
            BTW, the idea of two antagonist theories just omits something: the legendary Riurik could be
            neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian. In 9-10 century the Slavs could have called a warlord of Celtic origin, they still lived in the south Baltic by then.

            Bye,
            Alex.
          • Sfandra
            ... me - is stated as a scientific fact by Michael Krichton, the ... Here s an americanism for you, Alex: No shit, Sherlock. :D Crichton s apologia is in
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 7, 2005
              > Actually, Ibn Fadlan <SNIP>. Their origins, pardon
              me - is stated as a scientific fact by Michael
              Krichton, the
              > same who wrote Jurassic Park, - his rather pulpy
              > fiction novel The Eaters of the Flesh (13th warrior
              > with Banderas is based on it) cites Ibn Fadlan for
              > pages, to make the reader believe that the
              > characters are really normans, of which there is
              > actually NO proof.

              Here's an americanism for you, Alex: "No shit,
              Sherlock." :D Crichton's apologia is in the author
              notes for "Eaters of the Dead". I'm rather offended
              that you for some unknown reason assumed that I was
              using a work of fiction as a reference, as if I didn't
              know the difference, rather than thinking I was
              attempting to create a brief summary based on acedemic
              sources. Clearly, if I am making an effort to read
              straight through this ponderous mass known as Grekov's
              "Kiev Rus", I am not a johnny-come-lately to the world
              of acedemic research.

              I WAS attempting to simply paraphrase the wikipedia
              article that was posted at the same time whole hog.


              I personally, as I said at the end of my email, have
              no thoughts or opinions or even support either the
              normanist or antinormanist argument, having not done
              enough research on the subject. Note the "As near as
              I can tell" at the beginning of my email.

              >Also, the fact that "Rus" for 12 century Russians
              >meant Kiev and
              >Chertnigov region, they could even say "He went to
              >the Rus" meaning a trip
              >from outer regions like Rostov, Novgorod, etc to
              >Kiev, Chernigov, Liubech, etc.

              Sources? Citations?

              >BTW, the idea of two antagonist theories just omits
              >something: the
              >legendary Riurik could be
              >neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian. In 9-10 century
              >the Slavs could have
              >called a warlord of Celtic origin, they still lived
              >in the south Baltic by then.

              Sources? Citations? Archeological references?

              Please, when you make these "correction" comments of
              yours, which come across as very definitive in tone,
              site some sources? Thanks.
              --Sfandra

              ******************
              Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
              Kingdom of the East
              ******************
              "Earth: The most dangerous place known to Man. Billions of humans have died there." --TarynEve, "Desert Isle" (ENTff)



              __________________________________
              Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
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            • Tim Nalley
              Lets not let the endemic bickering of the Old World color this new world we are all creating, si vous plait. Michael Chriton is a hack genre writer, as is
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 7, 2005
                Lets not let the endemic bickering of the Old
                World color this "new world" we are all creating, si
                vous plait. Michael Chriton is a hack genre writer, as
                is well known, so I doubt that anyone ever uses his
                works as any serious historical source, even on the
                tertiary level, outside entertainment. OTOH, works of
                modern entertainment often have a utility of shedding
                light on important, yet obscure bits of history that
                might otherwise be overlooked in the shadows of some
                of the historical "monolith" areas of discussion and
                research.......
                Back to the subject, is there a group that
                encompasses the middleground, sans political dogma,
                and takes the pragmatic approach of fairly rapid
                assimilation with trace influence in the already
                existant culture? I know of hardly any human culture
                at any point in history that hasn't been noticably
                affected by contact with other cultures, sometimes
                quite pervasively and enduringly.
                'dok





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