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Pesky Normans!

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  • goldschp@tds.net
    ... OK, I have almost always seen this referred to in English as the _Russkaya Pravda_, so it was just teh spelling that threw me off. ... Wow. I had no idea
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 4, 2005
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      > 1)So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"?
      > Yaroslav promulgated the first East Slavic law code, Rus'ka pravda
      > (Justice of Rus'). Though I have only read portions of Grekov's work it
      > would be a primary document to which Grekov no doubt have referred to
      > in his study.

      OK, I have almost always seen this referred to in English as the _Russkaya Pravda_, so it was just teh spelling that threw me off.

      > 2) And what is an "antinormanist"?
      > See below clip. I couldn't really express it ant better.

      Wow. I had no idea there was a dispute over the origins of the Rus' like this. It's not surprising, except that I hadn't heard of it. Of course, I wasn't a history major and I studied at a school dominated by the Michigan school of history (which is basically Kenez and Fitzpatrick, who wouldn't have cared what happened before 1905, let alone 988).

      Does the Anti-Normanist School have any influence outside of Eastern Europe? And what is its relationship with Pan-Slavism (which I generally think of as a conservative, and not a liberal movement)?

      -- Paul
    • John Kowal
      Greetings All; ... Does the Anti-Normanist School have any influence outside of Eastern Europe? Possibly some but the Normanist School of thought has been
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 4, 2005
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        Greetings All;
        On 4-Oct-05, at 1:16 PM, <goldschp@...> wrote:
        > Does the Anti-Normanist School have any influence outside of Eastern
        > Europe? And what is its relationship with Pan-Slavism (which I
        > generally think of as a conservative, and not a liberal movement)?
        > -- Paul

        Does the Anti-Normanist School have any influence outside of Eastern
        Europe? Possibly some but the Normanist School of thought has been
        around for a lot longer and hence has inertia on its side so as the
        clip I posted suggested it is more widely accepted of the two.

        And what is its relationship with Pan-Slavism (which I generally think
        of as a conservative, and not a liberal movement)? There is an arguable
        link as Russia/Soviet Union/Russia have used both theories to express
        their leadership/influence over others. Some of the credibility of the
        hence is lacking as some of the research that has come out has been
        accused of propaganda to met political aims. But I know of Ukrainian
        Historians who are Anti-Normanist but not Pan-Slavic proponents.
        AVL
      • turanomar@libero.it
        The are some stereotypes in the Russian Translations into Western languages and it is mostly due to the Soviets who tried by all means to standardize conceits
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 5, 2005
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          The are some stereotypes in the Russian Translations into Western languages and it is mostly due to the Soviets who tried by all means to standardize conceits and ideas. PRAVDA RUS'KA (do not forget that advjectives TODAY are placed before the NOUNS) should be translated parallel to Greek as RUSSIAN RIGHT (legal sense)and not Justice as this word could be attribjted only to GOD and CHRIST and not to MAN.

          A curiosity. Ryurik the first Varangian named in the Chronicles came with his brothers, SINEUS and TRUVOR. Probably these brothers never existed as it may be that the Chronicler copied the text from an earlier paper where it was written that Ryurik came with his family and his companions. In norse it would be ... MED SINE HUS OK THRU VAR... i.e. with his household and the sworn members. In fact the mafia bands were usually banned people who congregated and the chief only had the right to bring along wife and children, the sworn members were all SINGLE. This is very important to know because that is why after some time the RUS as SWEDES disappeared and turned into Slavic people... because they married Slavic girls!
          Aldo


          [clip your posts --moderator]
        • goldschp@tds.net
          Aleksandr, I am utterly fascinated by this topic and I concur with Mordak: could we talk you into writing a summary for the Winter Slovo? -- Paul
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 5, 2005
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            Aleksandr,

            I am utterly fascinated by this topic and I concur with Mordak: could we talk you into writing a summary for the Winter Slovo?

            -- Paul


            > accused of propaganda to met political aims. But I know of Ukrainian
            > Historians who are Anti-Normanist but not Pan-Slavic proponents.
            > AVL
          • John Kowal
            Hey there; I can try to right a more concise summary of what I clipped and posted but as I said the article I found on the net was in my opinion pretty good.
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 5, 2005
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              Hey there;
              I can try to right a more concise summary of what I clipped and posted
              but as I said the article I found on the net was in my opinion pretty
              good. Whats the deadline date for the Winter Slovo?
              AVL
              On 5-Oct-05, at 10:51 AM, <goldschp@...> wrote:

              > Aleksandr,
              >
              > I am utterly fascinated by this topic and I concur with Mordak: could
              > we talk you into writing a summary for the Winter Slovo?
              >
              > -- Paul
              >
              >
              >> accused of propaganda to met political aims. But I know of Ukrainian
              >> Historians who are Anti-Normanist but not Pan-Slavic proponents.
              >> AVL
              >
            • goldschp@tds.net
              January 1 for the Winter issue. Give or take a day of course. Hangovers are a bitch. :) -- Paul
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 6, 2005
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                January 1 for the Winter issue. Give or take a day of course. Hangovers are a bitch. :)

                -- Paul

                > From: John Kowal <jpkowal@...>
                > Date: 2005/10/05 Wed PM 08:45:19 GMT
                >
                > Whats the deadline date for the Winter Slovo?
              • John Kowal
                Happy Holidays! I can t remember what the article was about? The Normanist vs Anti Normanist points of view? As it stands really behind on stuff right now
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 24, 2005
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                  Happy Holidays!
                  I can't remember what the article was about? The Normanist vs Anti
                  Normanist points of view? As it stands really behind on stuff right now
                  anyway. But I hope to get you an article sometime in the new year for a
                  Slovo.
                  AVL
                  On 6-Oct-05, at 8:11 AM, <goldschp@...> wrote:
                  > January 1 for the Winter issue. Give or take a day of course.
                  > Hangovers are a bitch. :)
                  >
                  > -- Paul
                  >
                  >> From: John Kowal <jpkowal@...>
                  >> Date: 2005/10/05 Wed PM 08:45:19 GMT
                  >>
                  >> Whats the deadline date for the Winter Slovo?
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