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Re: Re: [sig] Book: Kiev Rus, by B. Grekov - thoughts?

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  • goldschp@tds.net
    Aldo, So, what is Pravda Rus ka ? And what is an antinormanist ?? -- Paul
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 3, 2005
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      Aldo,

      So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is an "antinormanist"??

      -- Paul

      >contemporary institutions in the rest of East Europe. I found very interesting, as far i Was concerned, all the study about Pravda Rus'ka. You say he was a leading antinormanist, but I think it is worth discussing about this normanism/antinormanism. It would be the same as if in
    • John Kowal
      Greetings All; If I might comment. ... 1)So, what is Pravda Rus ka ? Yaroslav promulgated the first East Slavic law code, Rus ka pravda (Justice of Rus ).
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 3, 2005
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        Greetings All;
        If I might comment.
        On 3-Oct-05, at 12:41 PM, <goldschp@...> wrote:
        > Aldo,
        > So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is an "antinormanist"??
        > -- Paul
        >
        >> contemporary institutions in the rest of East Europe. I found very
        >> interesting, as far i Was concerned, all the study about Pravda
        >> Rus'ka. You say he was a leading antinormanist, but I think it is
        >> worth discussing about this normanism/antinormanism. It would be the
        >> same as if in

        1)So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"?
        Yaroslav promulgated the first East Slavic law code, Rus'ka pravda
        (Justice of Rus'). Though I have only read portions of Grekov's work it
        would be a primary document to which Grekov no doubt have referred to
        in his study.

        2) And what is an "antinormanist"?
        See below clip. I couldn't really express it ant better.

        Rus' (people)
        The material from this article should be included into Etymology of Rus
        and derivatives.

        The origins of the Rus (or Rus' , Русь) are controversial. Whereas most
        Western historians tend to give credence to the Normanist theory, many
        Slavic scholars are strongly opposed and work to find other origins.

        Culture and heritage is what is ultimately at stake in this
        controversy. The question is whether East Slavic civilisation owes an
        element of its cultural origin to the Scandinavian rulers of the 9th to
        11th centuries, as suggested by the Normanist theory, or whether that
        heritage can excusively attributed to the Slavs, as held by the
        Slavists.

        The question is emotionally charged. In the 1770s, one imperial Russian
        historian presenting the Normanist theory in St. Petersburg was forced
        to curtail his lecture by shouts from the audience and forced to cease
        his work on the issue. His work was destroyed (Source: Davies).

        The Normanist theory

        ----------



        ----------

        The Varangian world.

        This theory is called the Normanist theory, as it suggests that Kievan
        Rus' may have been named after its Scandinavian overlords just as
        Normandy. According to the Primary Chronicle, a historical compilation
        attributed to the 12th century, Rus was a group of Varangians who lived
        on the other side of the Baltic sea, in Scandinavia. The Varangians
        were first expelled, then invited to rule the warring Slavic and Finnic
        tribes of Novgorod:
        The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute to the Varangians -
        Chuds, Slavs, Merians, and Krivichs drove the Varangians back beyond
        the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and set out to govern
        themselves. But there was no law among them, and tribe rose against
        tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one
        against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who
        may rule over us, and judge us according to custom. Thus they went
        overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These particular Varangians
        were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans
        and Angles, and still others Gotlanders, for they were thus named. The
        Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichs and the Ves then said to the Rus, "Our
        land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come reign as
        princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their kinfolk, were
        selected. They brought with them all the Rus and migrated (The Primary
        Chronicle).

        Later, the Primary Chronicle tells us, they conquered Kiev and created
        Kievan Rus'. The territory they conquered was named after them (see
        Etymology of Rus and derivatives) as were, eventually, the local people
        (cf. Normans).

        The Normanist theory is also based on Ibn Fadlan who uses the name
        Rusiyyah for a group of people who are usually interpreted as Vikings
        near Astrakhan, and on the Persian traveler Ibn Rustah who allegedly
        visited Novgorod and described how the Rus' exploited the Slavs.
        As for the Rus, they live on an island ...that takes three days to walk
        round and is covered with thick undergrowth and forests; it is most
        unhealthy....They harry the Slavs, using ships to reach them; they
        carry them off as slaves and...sell them. They have no fields but
        simply live on what they get from the Slav's lands....When a son is
        born, the father will go up to the newborn baby, sword in hand;
        throwing it down, he says, "I shall not leave you with any property:
        You have only what you can provide with this weapon." (Ibn Rustah,
        according to the National Geographic, March 1985)

        When the Varangians arrived in Constantinople, the Byzantines
        considered and described the Rhos (Greek Tsm) as a different people
        from the Slavs. In De Administrando Imperio[1] is given the names of
        the Dniepr cataracts in both Rhos and in Slavic. The Rhos names:
        E Essoupi (Old Norse vesuppi, "do not sleep")
        E Oulvorsi (Old Norse holmfors, "island rapid")
        E Gelandri (Old Norse gjallandi, "yelling, loudly ringing")
        E Aeifor (Old Norse eiforr, "ever fierce")
        E Varouforos (Old Norse varufors, "cliff rapid" or barufors, "wave
        rapid")
        E Leanti (Old Norse leandi, "seething", or hlaejandi, "laughing")
        E Stroukoun (Old Norse strukum, "rapid current").

        It is also due to the annals of Saint Bertan which relate that Emperor
        Louis II' court in Ingelheim, 839 (the same year as the first
        appearance of Varangians in Constantinople), was visited by a
        delegation from the Byzantine emperor. In this delegation there were
        two men who called themselves Rhos (Rhos vocari dicebant). Louis
        enquired about their origins and learnt that they were Swedes. Fearing
        that they were spies for their brothers, the Danes, he incarcerated
        them.

        This theory claims that the name Rus, like the Finnish name for Sweden,
        is derived from an Old Norse term for "the men who row" (rods-) as
        rowing was the main method of navigating the Russian rivers, and that
        it is linked to the Swedish province of Roslagen (Rus-law) or Roden,
        from which most Varangians came. The name Rus would then have the same
        origin as the Finnish and Estonian names for Sweden: Ruotsi and Rootsi.

        In contemporary Scandinavian sources Eastern Europe was occasionally
        called Greater Sweden or Sweden the Cold beside a much popular name
        Gardarike (the land of cities). A similar way of naming an area of
        colonies has been used for southern Italy, Magna Graeca (Greater
        Greece).

        It has been suggested that the Vikings had some enduring influence in
        Rus, as testified by loan words, such as yabeda "complaining person"
        (from aembaetti "office"), skot "cattle" (from skattr "tax") and knout
        (from knutr, "a knotty wood"). Moreover three Nordic names of the first
        Varangian rulers also became popularized, i.e., Oleg (Helgi), Olga
        (Helga) and Igor (Ingvar).

        The proponents of the so-called "Normanist theory" of the Russian state
        - including Nikolai Karamzin and, later, Sergey Pogodin - wrote about
        the claims of the Primary Chronicle that the Varangians were invited by
        East Slavs to rule over them and bring order. The theory was not
        without political implications. In Karamzin's writing the normanist
        theory formed the basis and justification for Russian autocracy, and
        Pogodin used the theory to claim that the Russian state was immune to
        social upheavals and revolutions, because people's submission to their
        rulers was voluntary from the very beginning.

        The Antinormanist theories

        Scholars from Eastern Europe have criticised the Normanist theory.
        Already in the 19th century the "Normanist theory" was disputed by the
        more liberal sectors of Russian society and by some Polish historians.
        Even earlier, Mikhail Lomonosov had written about how problematic he
        felt the Normanist theory to be.

        Some non-Normanist origins for the Rus have been expounded:
        E From the Old Slavic name that meant "river-people" (tribes of
        fishermen and ploughmen who settled near rivers Dnieper, Don, Dniester
        and Western Dvina and were known to navigate them). "Rus" root
        preserved in modern Slavic and Russian words "Ruslo" (river-bed),
        "Rusalka" (mermaid) etc.
        E From one of two rivers in Ukraine (near Kiev and Pereyaslav), Ros'
        and Rusna, whose names are derived from a postulated Slavic term for
        water, akin to rosa (dew) (related to the above theory)
        E A Slavic word rusy (refers only to hair color - from dark ash-blond
        to light-brown), cognate with ryzhy (red-haired) and English red.
        E A postulated proto-Slavic word for bear, cognate with arctos and
        ursus.
        E The Iranian tribe of the Roxolani (from the Persian, rokhs .light・;
        R figqZ Wdadgq /rusyje volosy/ "light-brown hair"; cf. Dahl's
        dictionary definition of Eigr /rus/: Eigr \. W ]cUm. b^f, VZagWZh. Rus,
        fig. world, universe [VZagWZh: lit. "white world", "white light"]).

        The fact that Vikings used a particular name for the area, Gardar
        ("Cities"), is presented as an argument against the Normanist theory.
        The Norse sagas demonstrate that the Vikings' knowledge of Eastern
        Slavic lands was slight. For instance, they usually considered not Kiev
        ("Kaenugardr") but Novgorod ("Holmgardr") as the capital of Rus.

        According to F. Donald Logan (The Vikings in History, cit. Montgomery,
        p. 24), "in 839, the Rus' were Swedes. In 1043, the Rus' were Slavs."
        The Scandinavians were completely absorbed and, unlike their brethren
        in England and in Normandy, they left little cultural heritage in
        Eastern Europe.

        This almost complete absence of cultural traces (besides several names,
        as discussed above, and arguably the veche-system of Novgorod, see
        ting) is remarkable, and the Slavicists therefore call the Vikings
        "cultural chameleons", who came, ruled and then disappeared, leaving
        little cultural trace in Eastern Europe. This seems to suggest that
        these Rus' were a small group, less than a people in the nation sense
        of the word; less than an ethnos.

        This conclusion leads Slavicists to deny or reinterpret the Primary
        Chronicle, which claims that the Danish (or Swedish) Rus' were
        "invited". They claim that Nestor, a putative author of the Chronicle,
        was biased against the pro-Greek party of Vladimir Monomakh and
        supported the pro-Scandinavian party of the ruling prince Svyatopolk.
        They cite Nestor's factual inaccuracies as pro-Scandinavian
        manipulations and compare his account of Rurik's invitation with
        numerous similar stories found in folklore around the world.

        Boris Rybakov, a prominent Soviet historian, felt that the cultural
        level of the Varangians could not have warranted an invitation from the
        equally culturally advanced Slavs.

        References
        E Pavel M. Dolukhanov. The Early Slavs: Eastern Europe from the
        Initial Settlement to the Kievan Rus. New York: Longman, 1996.
        E Omeljan Pritsak. The Origin of Rus'. Cambridge Mass.: Harvard
        University Press, 1991.
        E Norman Davies. Europe: A History. New York: Oxford University
        Press, 1996.
        E The Annals of Saint-Bertin, transl. Janet L. Nelson, Ninth-Century
        Histories 1 (Manchester and New York, 1991).

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • aldo
        Hi Paul, Hi folks of SIG! Pravda Rus ka is practically the first written Civil Code of Kievan Rus. Usually in modern Russian it is spelt as Russkaja Pravda.
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 4, 2005
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          Hi Paul, Hi folks of SIG!
          Pravda Rus'ka is practically the first written Civil Code of Kievan Rus.
          Usually in modern Russian it is spelt as Russkaja Pravda.
          Ciao
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <goldschp@...>
          To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 7:41 PM
          Subject: Re: Re: [sig] Book: Kiev Rus, by B. Grekov - thoughts?


          > Aldo,
          >
          > So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is an "antinormanist"??
          >
          > -- Paul
          >
          > >contemporary institutions in the rest of East Europe. I found very
          interesting, as far i Was concerned, all the study about Pravda Rus'ka. You
          say he was a leading antinormanist, but I think it is worth discussing about
          this normanism/antinormanism. It would be the same as if in
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • turanomar@libero.it
          [clip your posts --moderator] Hi folks! The clip is exhaustive about normanism and antinormanism theories (I would respect the Russian historiography in
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
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            [clip your posts --moderator]

            Hi folks!
            The clip is exhaustive about normanism and antinormanism theories (I would respect the Russian historiography in writing normanist with one N instead of two.I have another theory which goes back to Jared Diamond, an Australian historian who noticed invented a very nice term for a state such as the one the Varangians established in Ladoga (in norse ALDEIGJUBORG where ALDEIGJA - Ladoga - is the transcription of Aled Jogi which in Carelian means Low River because the VOLHOV - the river of Novgorod - hear mouths into the Lake of Ladoga AFTER SOME RAPIDS)and later in Novgorod. The word is CLEPTOCRACY i.e. a state based on burglary and larceny. I, as an Italian, believe that it is better to call the first Varangian State A MAFIA STATE. In my latest work (which i titled CHRIST and the RUS MAFIA) I demonstrate that in the Chronicles it is cealrly stated that the Swedes presented themselves to the local landowners (Slavenes and Finns together) as the mafia does it today: WE ARE ARMED PEOPLE WHO ARE AT YOUR DISPOSAL FOR DEFENDING YOU FROM OTHER ARMED PEOPLE THAT HAUNT THIS COAST. YOU PAY AND WE WILL DEFEND YOU FROM THEM. This simply masquerades the fact that the Varangians themselves were THE MENACE! So at the end where Novgorod lies today there forms three centers: On the left bank there is the DETINEZ (which can be translated as CHILDRENS STOCKING CENTER where the hostages were kept and where also the kinds to be sold as slaves were locked up by the Swedes) while on the right bank divided by the ZHILOTUG (a canal rivulet) south were the Slavenes and north the TCHUDES (finns) and each controled the other. Why did the Varangians come to such a solution? If you remember the Vikings started to plunder and sackage the next to them seacoasts which were inhabited by Christians and had already abbeys and churches where local riches where kept, so the Vikings had an immediate revenue on their expeditions abroad. All the contrary happened for the Eastern Vikings who arrived here and the coast were desolated: No church, no people (finns and the balts used to live back in the forests and in any case their denisty was very low). Still they knew that Constantinople and BAGHDAD bought from here many valuables such as SLAVES (in the first place), HONEY (il was the most dear and the sole sweeteners for the kings and emperors), WAX (this was a very important raw material to enlighten the dark medieval world and the huge houses of churches and to make bronze objects)etc. So they had to find how to get into this traffic. They first were recruited as BODYGUARDS or CONVOY GUARDS on seasonal salary along the Russian Rivers to the South but then they caught the occasion when the Slavenes invited them to make out a steady way of life by their weapons. Why RUS? My opinion is that this word means simply MAFIA as we use COSA NOSTRA to describe a group of people that uses to act as a Mafia. It may be that they picked it up at the Cazar Kingdom's (AS LATER WAS WITH THE WORD kaghan TO DEFINE THE HEAD OF KIEV)from the Hebrew ROSH/RUSH i.e. the CHIEF.
            Ciao
            Aldo

            [clip your posts --moderator]
          • Tim Nalley
            That was fascinating! Hopefully a series of articles will insue from that so we can all learn more????? dok ... === message truncated ===
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
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              That was fascinating! Hopefully a series of articles
              will insue from that so we can all learn more?????
              'dok

              --- John Kowal <jpkowal@...> wrote:

              > Greetings All;
              > If I might comment.
              > On 3-Oct-05, at 12:41 PM, <goldschp@...> wrote:
              > > Aldo,
              > > So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is an
              > "antinormanist"??
              > > -- Paul
              > >
              > >> contemporary institutions in the rest of East
              > Europe. I found very
              > >> interesting, as far i Was concerned, all the
              > study about Pravda
              > >> Rus'ka. You say he was a leading antinormanist,
              > but I think it is
              > >> worth discussing about this
              > normanism/antinormanism. It would be the
              > >> same as if in
              >
              > 1)So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"?
              > Yaroslav promulgated the first East Slavic law code,
              > Rus'ka pravda
              > (Justice of Rus'). Though I have only read portions
              > of Grekov's work it
              > would be a primary document to which Grekov no doubt
              > have referred to
              > in his study.
              >
              > 2) And what is an "antinormanist"?
              > See below clip. I couldn't really express it ant
              > better.
              >
              > Rus' (people)
              > The material from this article should be included
              > into Etymology of Rus
              > and derivatives.
              >
              > The origins of the Rus (or Rus' , §²§å§ã§î) are
              > controversial. Whereas most
              > Western historians tend to give credence to the
              > Normanist theory, many
              > Slavic scholars are strongly opposed and work to
              > find other origins.
              >
              > Culture and heritage is what is ultimately at stake
              > in this
              > controversy. The question is whether East Slavic
              > civilisation owes an
              > element of its cultural origin to the Scandinavian
              > rulers of the 9th to
              > 11th centuries, as suggested by the Normanist
              > theory, or whether that
              > heritage can excusively attributed to the Slavs, as
              > held by the
              > Slavists.
              >
              > The question is emotionally charged. In the 1770s,
              > one imperial Russian
              > historian presenting the Normanist theory in St.
              > Petersburg was forced
              > to curtail his lecture by shouts from the audience
              > and forced to cease
              > his work on the issue. His work was destroyed
              > (Source: Davies).
              >
              > The Normanist theory
              >
              > ----------
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------
              >
              > The Varangian world.
              >
              > This theory is called the Normanist theory, as it
              > suggests that Kievan
              > Rus' may have been named after its Scandinavian
              > overlords just as
              > Normandy. According to the Primary Chronicle, a
              > historical compilation
              > attributed to the 12th century, Rus was a group of
              > Varangians who lived
              > on the other side of the Baltic sea, in Scandinavia.
              > The Varangians
              > were first expelled, then invited to rule the
              > warring Slavic and Finnic
              > tribes of Novgorod:
              > The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute
              > to the Varangians -
              > Chuds, Slavs, Merians, and Krivichs drove the
              > Varangians back beyond
              > the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and
              > set out to govern
              > themselves. But there was no law among them, and
              > tribe rose against
              > tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they
              > began to war one
              > against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us
              > seek a prince who
              > may rule over us, and judge us according to custom.
              > Thus they went
              > overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These
              > particular Varangians
              > were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes,
              > and others Normans
              > and Angles, and still others Gotlanders, for they
              > were thus named. The
              > Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichs and the Ves then said
              > to the Rus, "Our
              > land is great and rich, but there is no order in it.
              > Come reign as
              > princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their
              > kinfolk, were
              > selected. They brought with them all the Rus and
              > migrated (The Primary
              > Chronicle).
              >
              > Later, the Primary Chronicle tells us, they
              > conquered Kiev and created
              > Kievan Rus'. The territory they conquered was named
              > after them (see
              > Etymology of Rus and derivatives) as were,
              > eventually, the local people
              > (cf. Normans).
              >
              > The Normanist theory is also based on Ibn Fadlan who
              > uses the name
              > Rusiyyah for a group of people who are usually
              > interpreted as Vikings
              > near Astrakhan, and on the Persian traveler Ibn
              > Rustah who allegedly
              > visited Novgorod and described how the Rus'
              > exploited the Slavs.
              > As for the Rus, they live on an island ...that takes
              > three days to walk
              > round and is covered with thick undergrowth and
              > forests; it is most
              > unhealthy....They harry the Slavs, using ships to
              > reach them; they
              > carry them off as slaves and...sell them. They have
              > no fields but
              > simply live on what they get from the Slav's
              > lands....When a son is
              > born, the father will go up to the newborn baby,
              > sword in hand;
              > throwing it down, he says, "I shall not leave you
              > with any property:
              > You have only what you can provide with this
              > weapon." (Ibn Rustah,
              > according to the National Geographic, March 1985)
              >
              > When the Varangians arrived in Constantinople, the
              > Byzantines
              > considered and described the Rhos (Greek Tsm) as a
              > different people
              > from the Slavs. In De Administrando Imperio[1] is
              > given the names of
              > the Dniepr cataracts in both Rhos and in Slavic. The
              > Rhos names:
              > E Essoupi (Old Norse vesuppi, "do not sleep")
              > E Oulvorsi (Old Norse holmfors, "island rapid")
              > E Gelandri (Old Norse gjallandi, "yelling, loudly
              > ringing")
              > E Aeifor (Old Norse eiforr, "ever fierce")
              > E Varouforos (Old Norse varufors, "cliff rapid" or
              > barufors, "wave
              > rapid")
              > E Leanti (Old Norse leandi, "seething", or
              > hlaejandi, "laughing")
              > E Stroukoun (Old Norse strukum, "rapid current").
              >
              > It is also due to the annals of Saint Bertan which
              > relate that Emperor
              > Louis II' court in Ingelheim, 839 (the same year as
              > the first
              > appearance of Varangians in Constantinople), was
              > visited by a
              > delegation from the Byzantine emperor. In this
              > delegation there were
              > two men who called themselves Rhos (Rhos vocari
              > dicebant). Louis
              > enquired about their origins and learnt that they
              > were Swedes. Fearing
              > that they were spies for their brothers, the Danes,
              > he incarcerated
              > them.
              >
              > This theory claims that the name Rus, like the
              > Finnish name for Sweden,
              > is derived from an Old Norse term for "the men who
              > row" (rods-) as
              > rowing was the main method of navigating the Russian
              > rivers, and that
              > it is linked to the Swedish province of Roslagen
              > (Rus-law) or Roden,
              > from which most Varangians came. The name Rus would
              > then have the same
              > origin as the Finnish and Estonian names for Sweden:
              > Ruotsi and Rootsi.
              >
              > In contemporary Scandinavian sources Eastern Europe
              > was
              === message truncated ===




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            • Sfandra
              ... antinormanist ?? -- Paul Near as I can tell, it seems that the Normanist vs AntiNormanist has to do with theories of how Russia developed and the origin
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
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                >So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is >an
                "antinormanist"??

                -- Paul

                Near as I can tell, it seems that the Normanist vs
                AntiNormanist has to do with theories of how Russia
                developed and the origin of the name "Rus'".

                The Normanist theory says that Russia was developed
                and named out of the Scandinavian influence -- using
                the writings of Ibn Fadlan, who calls the norse
                raiders "Rusiyyah", and Ibn Rustah calls them "Rus"
                and differenciated them from the Slavs, the native
                peoples. Basically, it says the Rus were varagians,
                and they took over, just like the Norse in Normandy.

                The AntiNormanist position is that the nation formed
                more from the native Slavic people, with a source for
                the word "Rus" being imbedded in the slavic language:
                Ruslo (riverbed), Rusalka (river-spirit). Also the
                two rivers in the Ukraine the Ros' and Rusna. The
                AntiNormanists contend that the norse/scandinavian
                influence was completely absorbed by the local
                culture, leaving hardly a trace.

                So it's an argument of both ethnography and etymology.

                I have to read more before I'd even begin to form an
                opinion. What I'm finding most entertaining about
                Grekov is the fact that he quotes Marx as a firm
                source for historical anthropology....
                --Sfandra

                ******************
                Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                Kingdom of the East
                ******************
                "Earth: The most dangerous place known to Man. Billions of humans have died there." --TarynEve, "Desert Isle" (ENTff)



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              • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                Greetings! ... Actually, as extreme viewpoints, they hardly express the whole truth. The incompleteness of both theories was obvious by end-of-war. The only
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 6, 2005
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                  Greetings!

                  > >So, what is "Pravda Rus'ka"? And what is >an
                  > "antinormanist"??
                  > -- Paul
                  >
                  > Near as I can tell, it seems that the Normanist vs
                  > AntiNormanist has to do with theories of how Russia
                  > developed and the origin of the name "Rus'".
                  Actually, as extreme viewpoints, they hardly express the whole truth. The incompleteness of both theories was obvious by end-of-war. The only thing was that usually both arguments were used in the Cold War: that the Slavs were wise enough to live by their own law (USSR), and that the Slavs were stupid enough to lack their own ruling hand even in the early days of Slavic states (Western historians). As with any politic reasons, both theories had distorted historic truth many times. The discussion on that topic raged in the FIDOnet echoconference SU.HISTORY about this spring-summer, and must be available through Googlegroups. Sorry, but it is in Russian. :-)

                  >
                  > The Normanist theory says that Russia was developed
                  > and named out of the Scandinavian influence -- using
                  > the writings of Ibn Fadlan, who calls the norse
                  > raiders "Rusiyyah", and Ibn Rustah calls them "Rus"
                  > and differenciated them from the Slavs, the native
                  > peoples. Basically, it says the Rus were varagians,
                  > and they took over, just like the Norse in Normandy.
                  Actually, Ibn Fadlan (being a VERY emotional and not in the least impartial viewer - say, he reports of seeing a huge log-size snake, on the middle Volga, near Bulgar, some 150-200 kilometers south from Kazan - anyone can use Googlemaps and see how stupid a lie it is) says of some Rus merchants and describes their funeral rituals - saying nothing about their origins. Their origins, pardon me - is stated as a scientific fact by Michael Krichton, the same who wrote Jurassic Park, - his rather pulpy fiction novel The Eaters of the Flesh (13th warrior with Banderas is based on it) cites Ibn Fadlan for pages, to make the reader believe that the characters are really normans, of which there is actually NO proof.
                  And, afair, Ibn Ruste says about the tribe Rus, which is a neighbor to the Slavs, and Rus merchants buy from the Slavs. No native vs. newcomers. And some other Arabic source names Rus "a tribe among teh Slavs", - thus, no agreement with the sources even in this.

                  Actually, there is no proof that Scandinavians ever called themselves "Rus". The Finns called them ABOUT so (Ruotsi) - yes (and, afair, they called the Swedish like this), but the Scandinavians themselves - never. Even the fact that Ruotsi is related to the word Rus - lacks proof.

                  > The AntiNormanist position is that the nation formed
                  > more from the native Slavic people, with a source for
                  > the word "Rus" being imbedded in the slavic language:
                  > Ruslo (riverbed), Rusalka (river-spirit). Also the
                  > two rivers in the Ukraine the Ros' and Rusna. The
                  Also, the fact that "Rus" for 12 century Russians meant Kiev and Chertnigov region, they could even say "He went to the Rus" meaning a trip from outer regions like Rostov, Novgorod, etc to Kiev, Chernigov, Liubech, etc.

                  > AntiNormanists contend that the norse/scandinavian
                  > influence was completely absorbed by the local
                  > culture, leaving hardly a trace.
                  Absolutely. There is a very small circle of Scandinavian words borrowed.
                  Also, there is a little wider circle of Russian/Slavic words borrowed by Scandinavians.

                  :-)
                  BTW, the idea of two antagonist theories just omits something: the legendary Riurik could be
                  neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian. In 9-10 century the Slavs could have called a warlord of Celtic origin, they still lived in the south Baltic by then.

                  Bye,
                  Alex.
                • Sfandra
                  ... me - is stated as a scientific fact by Michael Krichton, the ... Here s an americanism for you, Alex: No shit, Sherlock. :D Crichton s apologia is in
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 7, 2005
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                    > Actually, Ibn Fadlan <SNIP>. Their origins, pardon
                    me - is stated as a scientific fact by Michael
                    Krichton, the
                    > same who wrote Jurassic Park, - his rather pulpy
                    > fiction novel The Eaters of the Flesh (13th warrior
                    > with Banderas is based on it) cites Ibn Fadlan for
                    > pages, to make the reader believe that the
                    > characters are really normans, of which there is
                    > actually NO proof.

                    Here's an americanism for you, Alex: "No shit,
                    Sherlock." :D Crichton's apologia is in the author
                    notes for "Eaters of the Dead". I'm rather offended
                    that you for some unknown reason assumed that I was
                    using a work of fiction as a reference, as if I didn't
                    know the difference, rather than thinking I was
                    attempting to create a brief summary based on acedemic
                    sources. Clearly, if I am making an effort to read
                    straight through this ponderous mass known as Grekov's
                    "Kiev Rus", I am not a johnny-come-lately to the world
                    of acedemic research.

                    I WAS attempting to simply paraphrase the wikipedia
                    article that was posted at the same time whole hog.


                    I personally, as I said at the end of my email, have
                    no thoughts or opinions or even support either the
                    normanist or antinormanist argument, having not done
                    enough research on the subject. Note the "As near as
                    I can tell" at the beginning of my email.

                    >Also, the fact that "Rus" for 12 century Russians
                    >meant Kiev and
                    >Chertnigov region, they could even say "He went to
                    >the Rus" meaning a trip
                    >from outer regions like Rostov, Novgorod, etc to
                    >Kiev, Chernigov, Liubech, etc.

                    Sources? Citations?

                    >BTW, the idea of two antagonist theories just omits
                    >something: the
                    >legendary Riurik could be
                    >neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian. In 9-10 century
                    >the Slavs could have
                    >called a warlord of Celtic origin, they still lived
                    >in the south Baltic by then.

                    Sources? Citations? Archeological references?

                    Please, when you make these "correction" comments of
                    yours, which come across as very definitive in tone,
                    site some sources? Thanks.
                    --Sfandra

                    ******************
                    Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
                    Kingdom of the East
                    ******************
                    "Earth: The most dangerous place known to Man. Billions of humans have died there." --TarynEve, "Desert Isle" (ENTff)



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                  • Tim Nalley
                    Lets not let the endemic bickering of the Old World color this new world we are all creating, si vous plait. Michael Chriton is a hack genre writer, as is
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 7, 2005
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                      Lets not let the endemic bickering of the Old
                      World color this "new world" we are all creating, si
                      vous plait. Michael Chriton is a hack genre writer, as
                      is well known, so I doubt that anyone ever uses his
                      works as any serious historical source, even on the
                      tertiary level, outside entertainment. OTOH, works of
                      modern entertainment often have a utility of shedding
                      light on important, yet obscure bits of history that
                      might otherwise be overlooked in the shadows of some
                      of the historical "monolith" areas of discussion and
                      research.......
                      Back to the subject, is there a group that
                      encompasses the middleground, sans political dogma,
                      and takes the pragmatic approach of fairly rapid
                      assimilation with trace influence in the already
                      existant culture? I know of hardly any human culture
                      at any point in history that hasn't been noticably
                      affected by contact with other cultures, sometimes
                      quite pervasively and enduringly.
                      'dok





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