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RE: collars

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  • Sarah Brooks
    Just to throw my hat into the ring, I ll second the very slightly conical idea, and the stiffener, as a necessity, for achieving the right look and fit. From
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 24, 2005
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      Just to throw my hat into the ring, I'll second the very slightly conical
      idea, and the stiffener, as a necessity, for achieving the right look and
      fit.

      From what I saw at the museums in Sergeiv Posad, and in Moscow and St.
      Petersburg, as well as in Nizhny Novgorod, Saratov, and Tomsk, there seems
      to be a recurring theme of metallic embroidery and beadwork on collars of
      velvet or a very heavy satin, with a hair canvas interlining, a couple of
      layers of flannel or cotton, and a lighter weight satin or cotton lining for
      the clergy and royalty. Common folk tended to have more layers of canvas
      and cotton or linen, embroidered with regional designs in cotton or linen
      threads. This is still seen in the folk costumes produced locally for
      festivals in many regions where collars were traditionally worn more often
      by the lesser nobility and common folk. Much of the embroidery really
      resembled rows or layers of elaborate trim, and it often took a second look
      (a close one) to determine if the decoration was an embroidered band applied
      (trim) or actually a part of the garment. Most were actual embroidery, but
      some did appear to be trim, and my best guess is that the "trim" applied to
      some of the collars was an effort to replace a worn or outgrown collar or
      headdress, while saving the handwork off the old one.

      The collars as well as the women's headdress, and girdle belts of various
      widths and regional distractions, appear to be basically the same
      construction, with more or less feminine detailing and shaping, depending on
      the status and extravagance of the woman herself, or her family. The shapes
      of the collars and headdresses I saw were somewhat dependant on region, but
      the same shapes and variations of each were seen in every region (arched,
      rounded, scalloped, squared off pentagonal shapes, etc.) For anyone who
      wants to take this idea to the headdresses, maidens were not veiled, while
      married women and widows were, mostly....

      When laid out flat, the collars in the museums had a definite front and
      back, with the neckline being higher in the back and lower in the front.
      This would make for an irregular circle in the middle of the stretched out
      pie, really, missing one wedge, and adjusted for length. The back will be
      wider than the front. Should you happen to have an old men's dress shirt
      lying around, using it to get the basic shape of the neck hole (top of
      buttoned collar) and the length and angle for the outer edge (collar to
      shoulder) of the circle would work quite nicely.

      Considering the substance and the life of the finished product, I'd
      personally not scrimp on materials or labor, and I'd start with a layer of
      buckram sandwiched between two layers of canvas to get the right fit for my
      own comfort prior to cutting into anything more expensive than that. You
      may find with your prototype that you'd like to have the front, back or
      sides a little more or less anything - and that's always better to find out
      prior to investing a lot of handwork in anything!

      You can find examples at the Hermitage Museum online, and I am not able to
      find links to the monastery museum in Sergeiv Posad, but that was by far the
      most extensive and oldest collection of wear of the common folk, lesser
      nobility and clergy.

      Sasha
      (the absurdly boring tourist spending all her time looking at fabrics and
      construction details)....
    • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
      Greetings! ... Just adding mine... ... Some Russian folk dress studies remind their readers that even commoners had metal (gold & silver) embroidery on their
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 26, 2005
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        Greetings!

        > Just to throw my hat into the ring, I'll second the very slightly conical
        Just adding mine...

        > idea, and the stiffener, as a necessity, for achieving the right look and
        > fit.
        >
        > From what I saw at the museums in Sergeiv Posad, and in Moscow and St.
        > Petersburg, as well as in Nizhny Novgorod, Saratov, and Tomsk, there seems
        > to be a recurring theme of metallic embroidery and beadwork on collars of
        > velvet or a very heavy satin, with a hair canvas interlining, a couple of
        > layers of flannel or cotton, and a lighter weight satin or cotton lining for
        > the clergy and royalty. Common folk tended to have more layers of canvas
        > and cotton or linen, embroidered with regional designs in cotton or linen

        Some Russian folk dress studies remind their readers that even commoners had metal (gold & silver) embroidery on their holiday garments - and those pieces were almost ABSOLUTELY destroyed in mid/late 1800s, when the factories made not hand-embroidered linen but multi-colored calico be in fashion. Thus, using the market situation, some smart meanies "scrounger": 'vyzhiga, from "vyzhigat'" - "to burn out". The word existed until the origin of teh term was remembered (it quietly died about mid-1900s). So, do not get deceived by lack of metal embroidery on the commoners' wear.

        Hope that helps somehow.

        Bye,
        Alex
      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
        Greetings! Sorry, the keyboard switched the insert mode when I did not expect... ... (that s what was eaten by insert button) ... Hope that helps somehow.
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 26, 2005
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          Greetings!

          Sorry, the keyboard switched the insert mode when I did not expect...

          >
          > Some Russian folk dress studies remind their readers that even commoners had metal (gold & silver) embroidery on their holiday garments - and those pieces were almost ABSOLUTELY destroyed in mid/late 1800s, when the factories made not hand-embroidered linen but multi-colored calico be in fashion. Thus, using the market situation, some smart meanies

          (that's what was eaten by "insert" button)

          took the situation for their advantages and founded a swift but profitable business buying embroidered garments for cheap (as they were NOT considered stylish and fit for holiday wear any more) and burning them. The metal that remained (and 15-16 century foreigners state very rich embroideries even with the commoners, there was a lot of metal thread on each wearer) was gold and silver, so the game was worth the candles - though even then it was considered mean, to buy hand-woven and hand-embroidered garments, inherited from the ancestors, and destroy them. The name of profession, however short was its existence, had swiftly become the synonym of "scrounge", "self-seeker", "grabber":



          >'vyzhiga, from "vyzhigat'" - "to burn out". The word existed until the origin of teh term was remembered (it quietly died about mid-1900s). So, do not get deceived by lack of metal embroidery on the commoners' wear.

          Hope that helps somehow.

          Bye,
          Alex
        • Lente
          Okay I got the collar copied and drew on graph lines at one inch in size so you can get it back to size easier, so the file portions (four parts) are in
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 28, 2005
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            Okay I got the collar copied and drew on graph lines at one inch in size so
            you can get it back to size easier, so the file portions (four parts) are in
            Kathws' stuff in the sig group file section, you will have to tape them
            together once you get the size you want. This is the first time I've done
            this so let me know if that's what your looking for.

            I will probably keep them up for about a week, each one is 256 kb that's
            why I will remove them after one week. And the omigod huge pic of me is now
            in the photo section of the group.

            Kathws
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Sarah Brooks" <sarahbrooksct@...>
            To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 9:03 AM
            Subject: [sig] RE: collars


            > Just to throw my hat into the ring, I'll second the very slightly conical
            > idea, and the stiffener, as a necessity, for achieving the right look and
            > fit.
            >
            > From what I saw at the museums in Sergeiv Posad, and in Moscow and St.
            > Petersburg, as well as in Nizhny Novgorod, Saratov, and Tomsk, there seems
            > to be a recurring theme of metallic embroidery and beadwork on collars of
            > velvet or a very heavy satin, with a hair canvas interlining, a couple of
            > layers of flannel or cotton, and a lighter weight satin or cotton lining
            > for
            > the clergy and royalty. Common folk tended to have more layers of canvas
            > and cotton or linen, embroidered with regional designs in cotton or linen
            > threads. This is still seen in the folk costumes produced locally for
            > festivals in many regions where collars were traditionally worn more often
            > by the lesser nobility and common folk. Much of the embroidery really
            > resembled rows or layers of elaborate trim, and it often took a second
            > look
            > (a close one) to determine if the decoration was an embroidered band
            > applied
            > (trim) or actually a part of the garment. Most were actual embroidery,
            > but
            > some did appear to be trim, and my best guess is that the "trim" applied
            > to
            > some of the collars was an effort to replace a worn or outgrown collar or
            > headdress, while saving the handwork off the old one.
            >
            > The collars as well as the women's headdress, and girdle belts of various
            > widths and regional distractions, appear to be basically the same
            > construction, with more or less feminine detailing and shaping, depending
            > on
            > the status and extravagance of the woman herself, or her family. The
            > shapes
            > of the collars and headdresses I saw were somewhat dependant on region,
            > but
            > the same shapes and variations of each were seen in every region (arched,
            > rounded, scalloped, squared off pentagonal shapes, etc.) For anyone who
            > wants to take this idea to the headdresses, maidens were not veiled, while
            > married women and widows were, mostly....
            >
            > When laid out flat, the collars in the museums had a definite front and
            > back, with the neckline being higher in the back and lower in the front.
            > This would make for an irregular circle in the middle of the stretched out
            > pie, really, missing one wedge, and adjusted for length. The back will be
            > wider than the front. Should you happen to have an old men's dress shirt
            > lying around, using it to get the basic shape of the neck hole (top of
            > buttoned collar) and the length and angle for the outer edge (collar to
            > shoulder) of the circle would work quite nicely.
            >
            > Considering the substance and the life of the finished product, I'd
            > personally not scrimp on materials or labor, and I'd start with a layer of
            > buckram sandwiched between two layers of canvas to get the right fit for
            > my
            > own comfort prior to cutting into anything more expensive than that. You
            > may find with your prototype that you'd like to have the front, back or
            > sides a little more or less anything - and that's always better to find
            > out
            > prior to investing a lot of handwork in anything!
            >
            > You can find examples at the Hermitage Museum online, and I am not able to
            > find links to the monastery museum in Sergeiv Posad, but that was by far
            > the
            > most extensive and oldest collection of wear of the common folk, lesser
            > nobility and clergy.
            >
            > Sasha
            > (the absurdly boring tourist spending all her time looking at fabrics and
            > construction details)....
          • Stephanie M. Ross
            Rats, when it got enlarged and/or formatted by Yahoo, it cut off parts of the pattern so it won t go together right. If you are still willing to mess with it,
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 29, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Rats, when it got enlarged and/or formatted by Yahoo, it cut off parts
              of the pattern so it won't go together right. If you are still willing
              to mess with it, you could tape two pieces of paper together, trace
              the pattern, and email me each page. If not, no worries, I got some
              other good ideas from the folks on this list. I really appreciate your
              time and effort. Thank you!!

              Nadya



              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Lente" <lente@c...> wrote:
              > Okay I got the collar copied and drew on graph lines at one inch in
              size so
              > you can get it back to size easier, so the file portions (four
              parts) are in
              > Kathws' stuff in the sig group file section, you will have to tape
              them
              > together once you get the size you want. This is the first time
              I've done
              > this so let me know if that's what your looking for.
              >
              > Kathws
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